Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 110816 times)

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #330 on: May 23, 2017, 08:09 PM »
I scanned the first 200 pages

Scanned? You meant downloading...it's a pdf file from the link.

The report is welcomed because it points to the right direction like the implementation of seat belts and airbags (soon all the fancy safety add-ons like lane departure warning, blind spot warning, etc. previously available in only luxury vehicles will be standard features in ordinary cars like side mirrors!). The report benefits me little as I already own a SawStop. but the technology or the like can benefit every user when the price point is brought down. I may be able to get SawStop parts cheaper when the competition is widespread.

As I understand it, some are against the SawStop and not the safety feature per se. They could include some of those who've bought the Bosch saw. When the finger saving technology is made mandatory, people who refuse to adopt the change still have the option of buying the old model saws which I figure will go down hugely in prices -- new or second hand.

2025 would be a reasonable estimate when all new saws will have the upgraded safety feature.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 08:22 PM by ChuckM »

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Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #331 on: May 23, 2017, 08:36 PM »
What I found interesting was:

there were fewer than 5000 cases in which a limb/digit was lost. 
- weighed against how many people used a saw in that year and how many man hours were actually complied by those users ?  They didn't have that info, which is kinda necessary to gauge risk.

Nearly half of all the injuries were to retirees. 
- [blink]

The moratorium is very close to the SS patent expiration dates. 

The decision will be in session, not a fill in the blank exercise that's sent in.

Offline Wooden Skye

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #332 on: May 23, 2017, 08:42 PM »
6 pages in I was ready for a nap. 
Bryan

TS 55, (2) 1400 Guide Rails, 1900 Guide Rail, MFT/3, Domino DF 500, 2 domino systainers, ETS 150/3, RO 90, CT 26, (2) OF1400, RO 150. RTS 400, LR 32 set, PS300 jigsaw, 3 abrasive systainers, (2) sys toolbox, (2) sys mini, clamps and other accesories

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1382
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #333 on: May 23, 2017, 08:47 PM »
"there were fewer than 5000 cases in which a limb/digit was lost. 
 - weighed against how many people used a saw in that year and
 how many man hours were actually complied by those users ? 
They didn't have that info, which is kinda necessary to gauge risk."

I would be interested to see a breakdown of injuries to home hobbyist
or the casual table saw user vice those injuries which occurred on the
job and reported at some rate, maybe x thousands of hours per injury.
I really don't have an idea of which way it would go. Most times injury
rates are given per 100K manhours, at least those that OSHA and the
BLS report for workplace injuries.

Looking at the table on page 20, over 44% of the injuries occurred to
individuals 61 or older. And 67% occurred at home, but that designation
seems foggy to me. Is ALL the data derived from non-workplace related
injuries, or does 'home' include a workman performing work on a clients
home and (in this case ) using a table saw.

I have three 9-fingered friends, but it's still not clear to me that we need this
thrust upon us to fatten the coffers of SawStop LLC. I know, they just want
everyone to be safe and keep all their digits, so do I. I also want the choice
to buy the saw that I want, and not one the Mr. Gass insists I need. Which
may or may not be a SawStop, a Bosch REAXX, or some other make table
saw, but I guess we'll never know about the Bosch choice any time soon.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 09:12 PM by Bob D. »
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1313
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #334 on: May 23, 2017, 09:21 PM »
9-fingered friends...that reminds me of a former co-worker I recently chatted with.

He had a tablesaw injury last Oct. (or summer) that required a trip to the ER and over a dozen of stitches to his finger. It was a painful experience to him and it took a long time for the finger to completely heal. His wife wanted him to get a SawStop, but after weighing how much woodworking he would still want to do, he decided to go with a Festool tracksaw.

So the circular saw + track is another option out there (especially for sheet work or large workpieces). For large sheets, I use a saw guide.



Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #335 on: May 23, 2017, 11:26 PM »
It's always a mystery to me, if you need a new saw and the saws with safety features cost about the same as saws without and are also very high quality tools, why you wouldn't go with the safe one. Maybe even if you don't need a new saw. We all can make mistakes no matter how careful we are. I guess everyone has their priorities. Mine are ensuring I keep my fingers even if I happen to lose concentration or make a mistake one day.
Randy

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #336 on: May 24, 2017, 04:06 AM »
grbmds  A low cost portable table saw and a Sawstop are much different in price. This point was covered in the proposal.

I deleted the double post and comment. Du-oh.

I am old. When I was growing up, scanning meant eyeball scanning not using a machine/gadget/device.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #337 on: May 24, 2017, 09:18 AM »
6 pages in I was ready for a nap.

You did better than me
+1

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #338 on: May 24, 2017, 12:17 PM »
grbmds  A low cost portable table saw and a Sawstop are much different in price. This point was covered in the proposal.

Absolutely, just as there are vast differences between various categories of tools and what you purchase depends on your use of the tools. However, many refuse to buy from Sawstop because of personal feelings about the the company's owner. If you're going to buy a cabinet saw, contractor's saw, or a jobsite saw, it has always seemed to me that, given the quality of the Sawstop saws, it doesn't make much sense to miss the opportunity for safety because of your feelings about a company. I guess, by those standards, no one in the US should buy Festool tools or any tools with any parts made in China if you feel that you should buy US made tools. Would certainly narrow down the field of available tools these days in our global economy. It would not necessarily result in a shop full of better tools either.
Randy

Offline mike1967

  • Posts: 53
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #339 on: May 24, 2017, 06:08 PM »
If you're going to buy a cabinet saw, contractor's saw, or a jobsite saw, it has always seemed to me that, given the quality of the Sawstop saws, it doesn't make much sense to miss the opportunity for safety because of your feelings about a company.

This is certainly true.  There is an abundance of research in psychology showing that people consistently overestimate their abilities.  This means that one should be very skeptical of any table saw user who believes that he or she is too good to need a Sawstop.  Presumably everyone who cuts off one of his or her fingers with a table saw at some point thinks, "I never thought that would happen!!"

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6609
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #340 on: May 25, 2017, 12:51 PM »
Well, here's an interesting article that compares the ReaXX to the SawStop table saw. However, the most interesting part of the article is when they compare the safety aspects of the saws using a human hand and a finger.

That's right...so this guy Kenny decides to offer up the use of his palm and digits in the name of science.

They use 2 different tests;
The first utilized an open palm hit. We slapped the “meaty” part of Kenny's palm onto the top of the full-speed spinning blade.
The second test we performed was a finger drag as Kenny dragged his pointer finger across the blade.

https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/power/corded/saws/bosch-reaxx-1041a-vs-sawstop-jss-mca/14982/

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Bosch Saw Stop hand test
« Reply #341 on: May 25, 2017, 01:15 PM »
Wow. Remember fellows, do not try this at home! Yes, I think I knew that.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #342 on: May 25, 2017, 02:05 PM »
If you're going to buy a cabinet saw, contractor's saw, or a jobsite saw, it has always seemed to me that, given the quality of the Sawstop saws, it doesn't make much sense to miss the opportunity for safety because of your feelings about a company.

This is certainly true.  There is an abundance of research in psychology showing that people consistently overestimate their abilities.  This means that one should be very skeptical of any table saw user who believes that he or she is too good to need a Sawstop.  Presumably everyone who cuts off one of his or her fingers with a table saw at some point thinks, "I never thought that would happen!!"



This is so NOT TRUE.

What the heck, this is the USA where we decide to buy things based on WHO SELLS THEM(it's at least a large factor).

So if the the Ku Klux Clan comes out with the best saw ever invented it means we should not take that as a factor. That another company uses 6 year old's to build the parts for the best router ever made in history,  we should not take that as a factor?

Of course we should take the owners views and actions into account no matter how great the product is!!!!

There are loads of companies and products that were far Superior that went nowhere because of who sold them and rightfully so!

I don't like the owner of the Saw Stop's views.  And that's a great reason not to buy one. It's one way for consumers to send a message to companies, it's valid and it works.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 02:10 PM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Terry Fogarty

  • Posts: 401
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #343 on: May 25, 2017, 03:39 PM »
This is so NOT TRUE.

What the heck, this is the USA where we decide to buy things based on WHO SELLS THEM(it's at least a large factor).

So if the the Ku Klux Clan comes out with the best saw ever invented it means we should not take that as a factor. That another company uses 6 year old's to build the parts for the best router ever made in history,  we should not take that as a factor?

Of course we should take the owners views and actions into account no matter how great the product is!!!!

There are loads of companies and products that were far Superior that went nowhere because of who sold them and rightfully so!

I don't like the owner of the Saw Stop's views.  And that's a great reason not to buy one. It's one way for consumers to send a message to companies, it's valid and it works.

Spot on
.

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #344 on: May 25, 2017, 07:30 PM »

I don't like the owner of the Saw Stop's views.  And that's a great reason not to buy one. It's one way for consumers to send a message to companies, it's valid and it works.

I don't care about the views of the owner of SAWSTOP and have a SAWSTOP. But I agree totally with you that anyone can decide to buy or not to buy based on their views of the owner or the company that sells the product. If we blindly buy something just because it is the best out there, we'll just be a herd of sheep.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #345 on: May 25, 2017, 10:21 PM »
I didn't know that the Sawstop owner was a bigot or maybe I wouldn't have bought the product. I guess that means that people know what each and every company stands for ideologically when buying a tool? I freely admit I don't and, unless they have made a political, racial, or some other statement related to world status, I buy tools because they are great tools or a better value or they just are plain useful to me. I was at the Handworks Tool show last weekend and I can't think of any of the tool makers that I asked about his political or social views. They made great tools and that was the important thing. A guy protecting his patents isn't sufficient for me not buy a great tool. He's just a guy protecting his business interests; in other words, kind of a normal business man trying to remain successful.
Randy

Offline Rip Van Winkle

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #346 on: May 26, 2017, 12:43 AM »
The above comments that mention the KKK weren't meant to imply that Gass or Sawstop were bigots. The KKK comment was an analogy.


The analogy was that the KKK and its members have committed acts that numerous people consider morally reprehensible, and some people chose not to support businesses that are owned by, or support, the KKK because of this.

Steve Gass, the founder of Sawstop, after patenting "his" technology, tried to use lawsuits against manufacturers, and have legislation passed, to try force and coerce, manufacturers and the public to purchase "his" technology, even when those manufacturers and individuals may not want to, and people also find this morally reprehensible, and may choose not to purchase Sawstop saws, or other items that contain Technology from Gass because of this.

Offline Dovetail65

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #347 on: May 26, 2017, 01:29 AM »
The above comments that mention the KKK weren't meant to imply that Gass or Sawstop were bigots. The KKK comment was an analogy.


The analogy was that the KKK and its members have committed acts that numerous people consider morally reprehensible, and some people chose not to support businesses that are owned by, or support, the KKK because of this.

Steve Gass, the founder of Sawstop, after patenting "his" technology, tried to use lawsuits against manufacturers, and have legislation passed, to try force and coerce, manufacturers and the public to purchase "his" technology, even when those manufacturers and individuals may not want to, and people also find this morally reprehensible, and may choose not to purchase Sawstop saws, or other items that contain Technology from Gass because of this.

Thanks RIP, you can read! I appreciate it.

My lord of course not, where does it say I ever called them bigots or anything else. It was an extreme example  I thought I had to use to make people understand the point. A couple guys said oh yeah 100% we should not care about the owners views since the tool is so good. I had to try to put a stop to that train of thought ASAP. I feel the  owners actions are important in a purchase decision and should be for everyone. Even if we have to purchase products some may consider not quite as good as the company with the owners we philosophically oppose might sell.


I'll get into a little on why I don't like the Sawstop owners, but come on, everyone knows the story. He is a control freak that tried to use the rationale of safety when it was and is really all about money. Just say, "I wanted to change the law so I could make more money" and I would respect the guy a whole lot more. And this isn't even personal, its the business actions I base my statements on. The court case and its proceedings and the interviews and articles over the years are what made me feel the way I do. I am sure the guy is fine to go drink a beer with as most people are if you don't get into their business dealings and political or religious backgrounds.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 01:49 AM by Dovetail65 »
The one who says it can't be done should avoid interrupting the person doing it.

Offline Svar

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #348 on: May 26, 2017, 05:14 AM »
So Steve Guss tried to legislate things to make more money? LOL! You just described every major corporation that employs armies of lobbyists to do just that. If you guys applied the same standards to everyone that you apply to Guss you'd end up buying pretty much nothing. Not filling your tank with imported petroleum would be a good start.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 09:46 AM by Svar »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #349 on: May 26, 2017, 08:05 AM »
Not exactly apples to apples Svar .

No one forces me to buy a gasoline powered car.  I can purchase an electric powered one and Fiskar makes one with solar panels on the roof.

How'd you feel if he convinced congress to mandate that for all new automobiles?

              ----------------------------

At what point does personal responsibility for one's safety enter into the equation ?

Peanut Butter can be a killer, should we outlaw or regulate that now too ?


Offline estley

  • Posts: 118
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #350 on: May 26, 2017, 08:22 AM »
while it's not 100% apples to apples, I do see validity in Svar's argument. We all like to root for the little guy vs big corporations, and cry a river when the corporation blocks/smashes/burries the little guy. We also love to bitch and moan about how corporations cut corners and end up offering inferior products so they can fatten their margins up somewhere.

What baffles me, is that now, the big corporations had a chance of licensing this guy's tech, for one reason or another, that didn't work out. Now the little guy is fighting back, and he grew fangs, and all of the sudden, there's outrage that he's fighting dirty.

I do understand that nobody wants this to be legislated, and be forced to buy this product; so as in any argument, there's two sides to the story.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #351 on: May 26, 2017, 08:44 AM »
Agreed , but one has to draw the line somewhere.  It's not as if people relish being bent over by Biggie Co. ; they are often just powerless to do anything about it.

Rubber stamping the behavior by saying "everyone's doing it" is part of the problem.


Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #352 on: May 26, 2017, 09:50 AM »
@Dovetail65 No. No one called Steve Gass a bigot. I was merely taking the extreme analogy and sarcastically or "tongue in cheek" making a point. The analogy of a company supporting bigotry and racism was extreme and doesn't apply in the Sawstop situation. It's not morally reprehensible to attempt to protect one's rights or patents or even creativity. It's only common sense that he would take whatever legal means available to protect what, whether you like the guy or not (and I don't personally like him), was an innovative and genius of an idea to solve a huge problem which, for many years, no one came close to matching. I don't blame him and I don't feel that his actions, totally within the law by the way, are morally reprehensible. It doesn't even come close. That's my only point. This is why these discussions get out of control. You can't really make points which everyone takes in the right way. So, sorry for the rant here. I'm done forever with this unresolvable topic.
Randy

Offline Holmz

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Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #353 on: May 26, 2017, 10:07 AM »
Correct @grbmds .
If someone wants to save their fingers, or have confidence that their fingers will remain, then they can buy his saw.
He is not morally responsible for the 80 billion fingers in the world.

people do not have a God given right to his creativity for which they are adverse to pay a heavenly price for.