Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 110979 times)

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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #300 on: February 21, 2017, 10:08 AM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Does Sawstop answer the phone? By my experience yes, with responsive support.
+1

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Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1912
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #301 on: February 21, 2017, 11:59 AM »
I continue to be amazed at how some people simply refuse to recognize the right of Sawstop to defend their patents.
No one refuses do recognize those rights. People just regret the decision. I might accept the ruling, but I don't have to like it. I'm a consumer and my self interests are more product choices and better technology (which Bosch's clearly is). What's surprising in that? SS, on the other hand, is after their self interest - monopoly as wide as possible for as long as possible. Nothing surprising either. Hopefully the appeal goes well for Bosch.

Offline derekcohen

  • Posts: 350
    • In The Woodshop
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #302 on: February 21, 2017, 12:16 PM »
Quote
SS, on the other hand, is after their self interest - monopoly as wide as possible for as long as possible

My understanding is that SS is willing to sell the right to manufacture their mechanism. They just do not wish to give it away. Purchasing the right to manufacture would enable anyone to go into competition with them. How is that a monopoly?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 303
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #303 on: February 21, 2017, 01:10 PM »
The whole concept of the patent system is that the inventor is granted protection for a limited time period in exchange for disclosure of the details of his invention so that other inventors may improve upon it.  If they indeed improve upon it a new patent can be granted, if they infringe on it the patent holder can obtain protection in the courts.  Sawstop is simply following the rules.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #304 on: February 21, 2017, 10:10 PM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?


Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

I don't think they'll even notice not selling a couple of thousand table saws for a few years if the import ban holds.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2017, 10:14 PM by antss »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6641
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #305 on: February 21, 2017, 10:31 PM »
Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

Hmm...seems that Bosch may be substantially better positioned than SS when it comes to the America First policy. Manufacturing in Taiwan...vs manufacturing in the US, I'm sure the Donald will tweet on this one...it makes me dizzy. Stay tuned...

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #306 on: February 21, 2017, 11:18 PM »
I was actually referring to any Bosch woodworking tools made in the USA, but their number of employees in the USA is an interesting point to consider.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #307 on: February 22, 2017, 08:50 AM »
I am almost certain that the Bosch Reaxx is not made in the USA. Does Bosch make anything in the USA?


Of course they manufacture in the USA.   ::)

They have btw 50 -100 different facilities here employing over 30,000 people.   The dozen or so groups generate close to $14 billion in revenue a year. 

I don't think they'll even notice not selling a couple of thousand table saws for a few years if the import ban holds.
  True, it's only a few years till the patent expires , right?  After that, who knows what will show up.  [scratch chin]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #308 on: February 22, 2017, 10:52 AM »
- vs -
SawStop's couple dozen employees, offshore manuf. and single digit office/warehouse locations.

Especially in 2017...

The true test is, "Do they answer the phone?"

Does Sawstop answer the phone? By my experience yes, with responsive support.

SawStop answers their phone and emails, has knowledgeable tech support and full access to the engineers. I have called them three times. The first was after a trigger. They asked for pictures of the cartridge and my finger and promptly sent out another cartridge at no cost. The second call was about the dado saw cartridge which appeared to limit the width of the dado blade set. As it turned out I did not need to use the secondary washer with the dado stack. The washer is only for saw blades. My third call was a series of questions related to the sliding table in terms of mounting options. As it turns out there are options beyond what is mentioned in the manual. At no time on any of the calls did I feel rushed by them to wrap up the call and I had a lot of questions.

Offline Steve Rowe

  • Posts: 828
  • Teach them safety when they are young.
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #309 on: February 22, 2017, 08:13 PM »
Received the following email this morning from Bosch:

**********************************************
 
The ITC’s decision was based on the Administrative Law Judge’s finding against Bosch on two patents; the judge also found for Bosch on two patents.  Bosch maintains that development of its professional table saw product respects other companies’ patents and represents a new and unique technology in the construction market.  Therefore, we will be appealing this ruling.

 ********************************************

Interesting that the judge ruled for Bosch on two patents.  Does this mean that Sawstop infringed on Bosch patents?  If so, I wonder if an exclusion order will be placed on imports of Sawstops into the US.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #310 on: February 22, 2017, 09:00 PM »
Now you're reading OUTSIDE the lines.

I'm pretty sure what you read was that Bosch wasn't found in violation of two of the aspects of the complaint.

Offline Peter Halle

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12088
  • Magnum - My new little boy
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #311 on: February 22, 2017, 09:44 PM »
If Sawstops patents were filed before Bosch's it would seem impossible for Sawstop to infringe.  It seems that Bosch didn't infringe on two claims by Sawstop against them.

Peter

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6641
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #312 on: February 22, 2017, 09:56 PM »
This will be very, very interesting...that's the reason I suggested that if Bosch knows their stuff, which I assume they do, a plea to the Donald that a USA company producing product in Taiwan is not as viable or valuable to the American infrastructure as a German company producing/manufacturing product in the USA.

It will be interesting how SS responds...

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #313 on: February 22, 2017, 10:16 PM »
SS won't need to respond - unless the President's Rep. reverses the Commission's finding.

Which Vegas has pegged happening at slim to none. 

It's still a possibility though. And I'd imagine with the size of Bosch's war chest, they will bring considerable pressure to bear on the relevant parties.   

I could certainly see the Administration quashing the order, and letting the courts decide the merits of Bosch's claim that patents they were found in violation of shouldn't have been issued in the first place.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1912
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #314 on: February 22, 2017, 10:31 PM »
I'm surprised the administration has a say in such a minor business dispute. Not their job to micromanage.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6641
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #315 on: February 22, 2017, 11:23 PM »
Hey guys, we're in a new world order...what was once up is now down, and what was once down is now up and it will be discussed for the next how many years before it just becomes dull, boring and uninteresting. 

Sorry to say...this administration will have something to say in every minor business dispute...they are what they are...

Offline glass1

  • Posts: 549
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #316 on: February 23, 2017, 05:54 AM »
My issue with the sawstop contractor saw (the plastic portable one) is the junk fence, it's hard to get it perfectly parallel to the blade and the out going end has too much play. I find it's build quality below the industry standard dewalt table saw. This is a message to all tool companiies, if you are going to introduce a portable table saw it better function as well as the dewalt set up with or without the safety. Just my opinion and everyone I work with.   The makita has a useless fence, too big and heavy, Bosch is too big, inferior fence and dust collection, new skill worm drive has too much blade wobble and inferior fence. All others are not even worth mentioning. I personally hate the wheelie cart saws, too big, too heavy, too much space in truck. When one needs the big setup it's better to make ones own outfeed or go Rousseau.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #317 on: February 23, 2017, 09:50 AM »
My issue with the sawstop contractor saw (the plastic portable one) is the junk fence, it's hard to get it perfectly parallel to the blade and the out going end has too much play. I find it's build quality below the industry standard dewalt table saw. This is a message to all tool companiies, if you are going to introduce a portable table saw it better function as well as the dewalt set up with or without the safety. Just my opinion and everyone I work with.   The makita has a useless fence, too big and heavy, Bosch is too big, inferior fence and dust collection, new skill worm drive has too much blade wobble and inferior fence. All others are not even worth mentioning. I personally hate the wheelie cart saws, too big, too heavy, too much space in truck. When one needs the big setup it's better to make ones own outfeed or go Rousseau.

I agree with you on the Dewalt saws with the geared fence being the differentiator. They must have a patent on the design because if not all saws would have it. Once squared you never have to worry about deflection. I have the corded version of their smaller tablesaw which I can easily carry. I recently tried out newer one that is slightly smaller, but cordless and it works quite well. The only minus to the Dewalt is the inability to use dado sets, which is probably a job better left for a stationary saw.

Also agree Sawstop's job site saw is a let down. Too much plastic for the cost and fence completely blows. For not much more money you can get their contractor's saw. It runs $1599 and you can add a mobile cart for another $199 making it a very good job site saw.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #318 on: February 23, 2017, 10:24 AM »
I agree with you on the Dewalt saws with the geared fence being the differentiator. They must have a patent on the design because if not all saws would have it. Once squared you never have to worry about deflection.

I agree the dewalt fence is superior, funny how there's no woodworking community outrage over their monopoly on the better fence design.

+1

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #319 on: February 23, 2017, 11:14 AM »
JimH2 The Sawstop contractor saw is a lot bigger especially in height and weighs 160 lbs more. The mobility kit has much smaller wheels. If you can set up and leave for a couple of days then I would agree.  However if you have to set up in the yard everyday then I do not see the contractor saw being a great option.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1912
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #320 on: February 23, 2017, 02:03 PM »
I agree with you on the Dewalt saws with the geared fence being the differentiator. They must have a patent on the design because if not all saws would have it.
If they do it had expired long time ago.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #321 on: February 28, 2017, 10:52 AM »
JimH2 The Sawstop contractor saw is a lot bigger especially in height and weighs 160 lbs more. The mobility kit has much smaller wheels. If you can set up and leave for a couple of days then I would agree.  However if you have to set up in the yard everyday then I do not see the contractor saw being a great option.

Agree. I was presenting it as a better option in terms of quality than the job site saw which I see as a let down. Before spending $1300 I'd consider looking at the DeWalt contractor saw unless the quest is for the SawStop safety feature and one can live with the less than adequate construction.

Offline mwildt

  • Posts: 425
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #322 on: May 23, 2017, 10:26 AM »
This is now going to get more interesting in that the Consumer Product Safety Commission is now opening the door.

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Proposed%20Rule%20-%20Safety%20Standard%20for%20Blade-Contact%20Injuries%20on%20Table%20Saws%20-%20January%2017%202017.pdf

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1929
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #323 on: May 23, 2017, 10:38 AM »
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious. Seems like a stupid move instead of going for a much less serious result.
Randy

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #324 on: May 23, 2017, 12:05 PM »
This is now going to get more interesting in that the Consumer Product Safety Commission is now opening the door.

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Proposed%20Rule%20-%20Safety%20Standard%20for%20Blade-Contact%20Injuries%20on%20Table%20Saws%20-%20January%2017%202017.pdf

400+ pages!? Someone needs to invent the lawstop
+1

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1054
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #325 on: May 23, 2017, 12:09 PM »
This is now going to get more interesting in that the Consumer Product Safety Commission is now opening the door.

https://www.cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/Proposed%20Rule%20-%20Safety%20Standard%20for%20Blade-Contact%20Injuries%20on%20Table%20Saws%20-%20January%2017%202017.pdf

400+ pages!? Someone needs to invent the lawstop

LMFAO.  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]  [thumbs up] [thumbs up] [thumbs up]

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6200
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #326 on: May 23, 2017, 12:24 PM »
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious. Seems like a stupid move instead of going for a much less serious result.

They're probably trying to be realistic. A 3.5 mm cut is really not that deep and you'd be lucky to get away with that from blade contact. It's probably not even enough to fully cut a tendon.

That depth is also set at a contact speed of the finger of 1 m/s which is pretty fast and a speed that is probably reached in just a small percentage of all accidents.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6641
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #327 on: May 23, 2017, 12:39 PM »
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious.

I was also concerned about the 4mm depth because it seemed excessive, I managed to ferret out these items.

They quoted that current testing yielded these results: SawStop table saw tests ranged from 1.5 mm to 2.8 mm and the depth of cut for the Bosch table saw tests ranged from 1.9 mm to 2.5 mm.

As far as the 4mm number is concerned;
"The allowable depth of cut in the probe represents the quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration, which is the difference between a minor injury and a severe injury to arteries, nerves, or tendons that requires microsurgery to repair. This threshold is 4 mm from the surface of the skin."

"The quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration of a human finger is a 4.0 mm cut from the surface of the skin, and the mean epidermal thickness for a fingertip is 0.369 mm ± 0.112 mm, or a maximum thickness of approximately 0.5 mm."

"This 3.5 mm value represents the quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration of a human finger, as measured by the test probe."



Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1320
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #328 on: May 23, 2017, 04:37 PM »

400+ pages!? Someone needs to invent the lawstop

Authors must be paid by the word!!! [big grin]





« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 05:49 PM by ChuckM »

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #329 on: May 23, 2017, 07:04 PM »
I scanned the first 200 pages which I believe covered all the major points. One reason for the length of the document is that the same information is repeated in different sections.

All of the issues which have been raised in this forum are addressed. However, I imagine that the arguments and analyses provided in this document will change the mind of very few people. The basic argument in this document is that the large number of injuries and overall cost to society warrant the imposition of the automatic safety device. Many of the objections are based on the person's personal views regarding safety. Therefore the benefit to society argument will not be persuasive. Also, many people may object to the methods used in the analyses and the costs assumed at various points.

One point noted that I had not considered is that the current technologies may be extremely difficult and costly to implement on the Shopsmith multi-tool. Without the table saw, Shopsmith would face a very difficult future.

Even if the proposal is accepted, it calls for a three year implementation delay. Therefore there is quite a bit of time for this to be modified or even stopped completely.