Author Topic: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop  (Read 110924 times)

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6622
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #240 on: October 21, 2016, 12:51 AM »
Everything is negotiable

You're correct, everything in life is negotiable until of course you come upon an entity that will not negotiate. That's the rub...the very definition of negotiations is compromise on both sides, without compromise, there will be no negotiations. 

I could point out several current world events as examples.................but I won't.


« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 01:42 AM by Cheese »

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Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #241 on: October 21, 2016, 01:54 AM »
Everything is negotiable

You're correct, everything in life is negotiable until of course you come upon an entity that will not negotiate. That's the rub...the very definition of negotiations is compromise on both sides, without compromise, there will be no negotiations.

Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw? My guess is other makers like Bosch didn't want to try but now that SS proved that people are willing to pay extra for a well made saw with the added feature, Bosch wants in on the action while cuting out SS in the process. That's business.
+1

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6622
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #242 on: October 21, 2016, 02:52 AM »
Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw?

From Wikipedia...Negotiation is a dialogue between two or more people or parties intended to reach a beneficial outcome.

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making small concessions (as in compromises) to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful. Negotiation is not a zero-sum game; if there is no cooperation, the negotiation will fail.

The last highlighted point in blue was the point of my post. Negotiation works unless of coarse you don't want to negotiate, then you're time negotiating with SS is just p_ssing in the wind.

Rather than assuming it was as high as 10%...lets just use the real number which was 8%...which is awful high when you consider that the lower priced saws are essentially already commodity items and the additional 8% would effectively eliminate the profit margin. 

Of all the press I've read, no one has said that the Saw Stop saw is a flawed product, it's just the scorched earth approach that Mr. SS used in trying to mandate that his solution become THE ONLY industry standard, goes against the grain of free enterprise and human nature. Everyone is entitled to their fair share of the profits but the only facet we've really seen so far is the bully on the block...the my way or the highway...the get out of my way...or I'll see you in court approach. [sad] [sad] [sad]
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 03:01 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4312
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #243 on: October 21, 2016, 09:55 AM »
The trouble with a bunch of guys discussing this subject is that so much of what we write is third or forth hand hearsay colored by our own bias. My bias is in favor of safety but I don't want to pay any more than necessary either.

One bit of third hand stuff I have not read lately (been reading about this for about 20 years?) is that the traditional saw manufactures were advised by their lawyers to avoid the Sawstop tech even if it was given to them for free because to adapt the tech would be equivalent to admitting that the existing saws were unsafe and they'd then be wide open to liability claims.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6622
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #244 on: October 21, 2016, 10:32 AM »
...the traditional saw manufactures were advised by their lawyers to avoid the Sawstop tech even if it was given to them for free because to adapt the tech would be equivalent to admitting that the existing saws were unsafe and they'd then be wide open to liability claims.

Well that's certainly an interesting turn of events.  [eek]  I wonder if that's because the US society has changed so much with all this litigation over the years?

I once owned a used 1958 Chev Impala with vacuum wipers and no windshield washer, the windshield washer was optional and seat belts hadn't been invented yet. I also purchased a new 1966 Buick Lesabre and GM offered a pair of front "lap" belts as an option for $5 or $6.
Think of the type of cars we'd be driving now if the automotive attorneys acted in the same way as the saw manufacturers' attorneys.

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #245 on: October 21, 2016, 10:51 AM »
Negotiation doesn't equal compromise, but regardless were you a party to any royalty negotiations with SS? I know I wasn't. I have no idea what terms were proposed by whom, who here does? I hear all this talk about excessive royalty charges but what exactly were they? Let's assume it was as high as 10% retail price, is a finger worth an extra $100 on a $1000 table saw?

From Wikipedia...Negotiation is a dialogue between two or more people or parties intended to reach a beneficial outcome.

It is aimed to resolve points of difference, to gain advantage for an individual or collective, or to craft outcomes to satisfy various interests. It is often conducted by putting forward a position and making small concessions (as in compromises) to achieve an agreement. The degree to which the negotiating parties trust each other to implement the negotiated solution is a major factor in determining whether negotiations are successful. Negotiation is not a zero-sum game; if there is no cooperation, the negotiation will fail.

The last highlighted point in blue was the point of my post. Negotiation works unless of coarse you don't want to negotiate, then you're time negotiating with SS is just p_ssing in the wind.

Rather than assuming it was as high as 10%...lets just use the real number which was 8%...which is awful high when you consider that the lower priced saws are essentially already commodity items and the additional 8% would effectively eliminate the profit margin. 

Of all the press I've read, no one has said that the Saw Stop saw is a flawed product, it's just the scorched earth approach that Mr. SS used in trying to mandate that his solution become THE ONLY industry standard, goes against the grain of free enterprise and human nature. Everyone is entitled to their fair share of the profits but the only facet we've really seen so far is the bully on the block...the my way or the highway...the get out of my way...or I'll see you in court approach. [sad] [sad] [sad]

Where do you get the 8% figure and what is it a % of? Net sales...wholesale or retail? Was the details of these negotiations made public?

As for negotiation, it's a discussion, doesn't mean I must bend on price, there's other aspects to an agreement that have to be ironed out as well. Have dealt with it many a time in business. Client needs X, we sell X at a given price, we negotiate on delivery dates, packaging specs, payment terms and other details. Client has needs met and we still sell X at the same price.

My way or the highway is SOP in our culture. Govt mandated building codes and vehicle safety and fuel economy regulations are two examples where we are dictated what we do and buy. I don't like air bags, never did. Don't like bombs going off in my or my family's face. The fact of the mass recalls due to deaths illustrates my point. But good luck finding a new car without these bombs in them, it's the law. The govt and bureaucrats said my way or the highway and I'm stuck with a world of vehicles engineered with the assumption they will have bombs in them. It increases the cost of vehicles as well. I don't like the approach but no one cares what I think.

Many folks here deal with many building codes that make no sense as technology advances. Or it's aesthetic regulations about roof materials, paint color or any of a myriad of things the govt sticks their noses into. It often increases cost, but we do what we do because it's what some book and bureaucrats say we must do. I often don't like it, but no one cares what I think.

I understand folks not liking Mr SS trying to force his tech legislatively. He failed and I'm glad it failed. So he took the better (and far more risky) approach of bring the technology to market in SS saws. He (eventually) did the right thing, and many people use their great saws and I'm sure many fingers have been saved. But apparently some folks want to hold an eternal grudge. That's their prerogative of course, but if I operated that way in life over what's forced on me I'd be living a miserable existence every time I get in a car, deal with a building inspector, or get treated like a criminal when I fly.

This whole SS vs Bosch thing will now play out in the courts and in the marketplace, at least until Bosch is forced by the court to stop selling (if ever). At that point they may settle and SS gets a royalty. If it comes to that it seems a whole lot of time, legal fees and fingers were wasted.
+1

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #246 on: October 21, 2016, 11:29 AM »
It is what reply 191 is referring to.

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/13/sawstop-initial-victory-lawsuit-bosch

Thanks Tom...

Interesting things to note, from the Power Tool Institute:
...operators are nearly five times more likely to contact the saw blade of a SawStop saw as opposed to the operator of a conventional table saw.
http://www.powertoolinstitute.com/pti-pages/it-table-saw-facts.asp

Bosch's response:
http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2016/09/15/bosch-responds-sawstop-lawsuit

Whether someone was 1x or 5x or 10x as likely to contact the saw blade is irrelevant, as the outcomes of a SawStop versus a conventional saw accident is so drastically different that it does not matter.

I am a 25+ year user of tablesaws of which the last 10 were SawStops. I have had one real trigger and and zero false ones. Many people speak of misfires like they are a regular occurrence. I don't run wet wood, but if you do there is a setting for that.

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 407
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #247 on: October 22, 2016, 02:49 PM »
i agree that our conversation is underinformed, including specifically my commets.  But I think we all need to remember that a wide range of possibilities including Saw Stops patents being declaired invalid and SS being held in violation of Bosch's patents are still possible.  Patents just take awhile to settle and are often settled by the litagants rather than the court. 

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4312
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #248 on: October 22, 2016, 04:34 PM »
Just saw the PBS (USA non-profit Public Broadcasting System) program on Nicola Tesla. It wasn't until after Tesla died (Marconi died several years earlier) that it was determined that Marconi's patents were invalid and that Tesla should be credited with inventing radio.

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #249 on: October 22, 2016, 09:23 PM »
The SS royalty % has been discussed on other forums and one the participants is an employee of one of the approached manufacturers.  He said their business could not sustain the royalty cost as pitched because it was too high.  There appeared to be no negotiation whatsoever.
 
I still haven't received an answer to whether or not the % even included the brake system. I suspect it did not, so licensee cost would have been further increased per unit plus whatever R&D $$$ they had to spend to make the brake themselves and incorporate it into their saw trunion and arbor.

And have y'all thought about the vast discrepancy in real $$$ that a percentage arrangement would have on a $99 home center saw vs. say a $10,000 slider from a Euro manuf. for the same brake ?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #250 on: October 22, 2016, 09:56 PM »
He said their business could not sustain the royalty cost as pitched because it was too high.
Transfer that cost to consumer and see if the product sells. If not, keep making regular saws. What's the problem? Its not like there were competitors at the time.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 10:10 PM by Svar »

Offline antss

  • Posts: 1453
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #251 on: October 22, 2016, 10:14 PM »
He represented a co. that doesn't sell shiploads of saws and knows their customer very well and what they'll spend. 

The problem is , the market place doesn't overwhelmingly think a saw brake is worth the $$$ charged.  Certainly there is a market for it, but folks have gotten along with out for a hundred years?  And the overwhelming majority of users all have ten fingers.

Food for thought:  Flying is statistically safer than driving.  Should our government outlaw driving so less people get hurt and killed each year ?


Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 185
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #253 on: February 09, 2017, 09:00 AM »
That's very disappointing news.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1053
  • aka @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #254 on: February 09, 2017, 09:26 AM »
It will be interesting to see how this will further unfold.

I'm very curious to see once and if that ban is confirmed if Bosch will withdraw or if they will try to come to an agreement/settlement with SawStop.

Question for those who know about the law stuff ;) : If that ban is confirmed, would it even make a difference if Bosch reached an agreement/settlement with SawStop? (Given they would want to go this route at all) Or is this like a train that is gone - and there's nothing that can be done to lift the ban prior to February 2022?

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4312
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #255 on: February 09, 2017, 09:35 AM »
"Owners of REAXX table saws will still be able to purchase cartridges and have their saws serviced indefinitely because the cartridges are produced in the U.S. - so if you own one, or are thinking of buying one within the 60 day period, you are safe to continue using it and purchase one without worry that it will eventually become inoperable or obsolete."

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #256 on: February 09, 2017, 09:38 AM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.
+1

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4079
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #257 on: February 09, 2017, 10:04 AM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 1910
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #258 on: February 09, 2017, 10:24 AM »
What a disappointment. Bosch's is a better technology in my opinion.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 866
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #259 on: February 09, 2017, 11:57 AM »
That's really disappointing and pretty much assures no other company will have a go at creating a safer saw.

Offline RobBob

  • Posts: 1378
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #260 on: February 09, 2017, 12:55 PM »
I thought SawStop's patents were going to expire soon?  Wouldn't that mean this whole thing is moot?

Offline jimbo51

  • Posts: 465
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #261 on: February 09, 2017, 03:33 PM »
Any company can try to develop a safer saw providing that they do not infringe on the Sawstop patents. It appears that the patents are in force until 2022.

It really does not matter how much Sawstop is disliked, this is a legal issue about patent rights. The Bosch implementation may have been better, but the ruling says that they infringed on Sawstop patents, so they do not have the legal right to sell their saw in the US.

The interesting question will be the Bosch response if their appeals are eventually denied. If Bosch is truly interested in providing a superior, safer saw, then they will work out a royalty agreement with Sawstop.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6191
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #262 on: February 09, 2017, 03:48 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4079
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #263 on: February 09, 2017, 03:56 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

Offline bobfog

  • Posts: 838
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #264 on: February 09, 2017, 04:05 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

They're US headquartered though. i.e. an American company.

This is a shame, looks like the underdog was favoured over the big dog and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.




Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4079
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #265 on: February 09, 2017, 04:25 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

I read it more as domestic gets a win over import.

Saw stops are not US made.

They're US headquartered though. i.e. an American company.

This is a shame, looks like the underdog was favoured over the big dog and unfortunately the losers are the tool-buying public.

Still not US made. I may be inclined to cut the guy some slack if he stepped up and made them here as well.


Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #266 on: February 09, 2017, 04:35 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.
+1

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4079
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #267 on: February 09, 2017, 04:40 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

Sorry, other than its a safety feature on a TS, they really share no technical similarities.
Just another example of his douchiness. 

Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #268 on: February 09, 2017, 05:42 PM »
"Owners of REAXX table saws will still be able to purchase cartridges and have their saws serviced indefinitely because the cartridges are produced in the U.S. - so if you own one, or are thinking of buying one within the 60 day period, you are safe to continue using it and purchase one without worry that it will eventually become inoperable or obsolete."

That article seems odd.  I have no real idea, but, it sounds like the ITC would have no say over the cartridges produced in the U.S., but it would seem that if the cartridges represent infrigement, then some U.S. entity would be able to prevent their sale unless Bosch makes some sort of agreement with Sawstop to allow their sale.

I wish the article would explain itself better.


Offline bkharman

  • Posts: 1998
Re: Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop
« Reply #269 on: February 09, 2017, 06:11 PM »
A small company gets a win over a giant.

Win?  Gass is a douche

Peoples opinion of the inventor has nothing to do with a small company successfully defending their intelectual property from the interloping giant.

May be true but I would (and have) gladly spend more money for a high quality slider like a Hammer or such just so a DB like Gass doesn't get my money. Small or large business owners that treat people like numbers and dollars pay for that mentality one way or another.

Disheartening new indeed.

Cheers. Bryan.


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