I was going to use my drawer lock router bit but my zero clearance fence isn't working as well as I'd like so I've decided to use Domino's instead.  I thought it would go smooth until the machine started feeling funny at the end of the plunge.  I wasn't sure what was going on until I removed the Domino ... the bottom of the bit flares out and the bit was elongating the hole as well as burning the wood! 

It seems I need to stop as soon as I feel this different feeling and then just cut off the excess Domino?  I'm unable to move on to the middle Domino until these are cut flush but wonder whether there's any particular type of hand saw I should buy which will cut the excess Domino while minimizing the scaring of the wood itself?

At least half a dozen choices (Cdn prices shown; switch to US store/site for American currency):

https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop?query=flus%20cut%20saw&resultOnPage=50&page=1&categoryId={57135C30-EBA0-4378-9FE9-F011FC16186D}&sortBy=default&includeCategories=true&dataItem={7377C931-131A-417D-A0C3-57C296237784}

Single edge, double edge, Western, Japanese, etc.

All Lee Valley/Veritas products do not carry ratings or reviews. The company's reputation is its products' reputation. (All Veritas products are made in Canada.)

One of these:
https://www.amazon.com/Gyokucho-Razorsaw-Cutting-Double-Handle/dp/B001Y50BTK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=32RW9X86SM1MK&dchild=1&keywords=flush+cut+japanese+saw&qid=1605572626&sprefix=flush+Cut+japanese+%2Caps%2C325&sr=8-5

You won’t regret. 

never mind that was dumb of me I counted the plies (11)  so 15mm 5/8 what size dominos are you using? Im guessing 5mm by the looks of that first domino but will wait for your answer.

never mind that was dumb of me I counted the plies (11)  so 15mm 5/8 what size dominos are you using?

Wow, you're right about the size, I didn't know you could do that!  I'm using 5/8" for the sides and 3/8" for the bottoms.  Once I get these done I'll cut the dado's but am not sure how far from the bottom I should go?

What a newbie, I'm not sure why I didn't think of this!?  I've a Whiteside spiral flush trim bit I used to trim 3/4" Walnut edge banding and didn't even consider it ... I guess I need to get my tools out of their boxes more often so I remember what I've got available!! 

Down Cut Spiral Flush Trim Bit

Hes doing it at the same time. I build all my drawers like that.

 Bugs, if you step up to a 6mm domino the cutter has more of a shoulder the 5mm bit flares at the end and you have to be careful you dont push to far.  Looks like you got a little heavy handed on that first one.  Its a delicate balance with the df500.  Since the 500 has a max 28mm depth.  When I do 18mm I put a rabbit on the drawer sides this will get you more domino depth into the front and back of the drawer. With 15mm you are almost getting 50/50 so you probably dont need to.  Another tip is to pin the corners together with 23ga. pin nails with some T3 just make sure the pins arnt where the dominos will go. I pin everything and let the glue set up then come back pop in the dominos add some more glue in the dom hole tap in the domino and once the glue dries rout them flush.  easy peasy.

Hes doing it at the same time. I build all my drawers like that.

 Bugs, if you step up to a 6mm domino the cutter has more of a shoulder the 5mm bit flares at the end and you have to be careful you dont push to far.  Looks like you got a little heavy handed on that first one.  Its a delicate balance with the df500.  Since the 500 has a max 28mm depth.  When I do 18mm I put a rabbit on the drawer sides this will get you more domino depth into the front and back of the drawer. With 15mm you are almost getting 50/50 so you probably dont need to.  Another tip is to pin the corners together with 23ga. pin nails with some T3 just make sure the pins arnt where the dominos will go. I pin everything and let the glue set up then come back pop in the dominos add some more glue in the dom hole tap in the domino and once the glue dries rout them flush.  easy peasy.

It was still allowing me to push in so I figured it wasn't all the way in ... it seems the full 28mm depth will get into the shoulder area of that 5mm cutter.

I just tried your method and it worked fairly well ... I've slight marring as it allows the bit just a hair to close but I bet sanding would remove it.  Maybe I'll try a piece of paper under the router in the future to further reduce this ...



I was just thinking about what you said and since every domino will be flush cut differently, I definitely don't want to do the rest of the drawer just to remove, dado, glue up, and try to find which Domino fits where and in what orientation!  Thanks for pointing this out! 

So, I'll cut the dado's, sand the pieces smooth, glue the drawer box together, clamp or pin nail between where the Domino's will be, allow it to dry (how many hours?), plunge the Domino holes, glue in the Domino's, let them dry (how many hours?) flush cut them, and sand over the Domino's to finish?

I'm not sure I actually have a round over bit so maybe I'll break the corners gently but wonder whether they'd look better by rounding over or having different height for sides and front/back?

here is the domino 5mm and 6mm you can see the difference.  You can use the 5 it just requires a gentler touch.

I didn't realize the 5/6mm bits had different shoulders.  This is good to know as the 5mm bit shoulder comes before 28mm plunge so you should use a 25mm depth plunge or stop plunging when you feel it reach the shoulder.  I'd switch the 6mm cutter but I've 1,000 5mm tenons and only a small bag of 6mm!! Oh well, I'll switch to 25mm depth plunge...



Looking forward to using the drawer lock at some point!

Yes, another benefit of gluing and pinning first allows you to do all the domino mortises first then tap them in. As you found out if you do them as you go they will interfere with doing the next domino depending on spacing since they stick out slightly. It kind of depends on how much time you allowed for the glue to setup. I usually do one side then glue in the dominos then rotate to the next side. Truthfully you are probably good with just the 2 but 3 wont hurt.   

As far as that bit scarfing your wood. that makes me think the pieces aren't 90.  Make sure they are square first and adjust your bit so the bearing is about 1/8" below the domino.  Something needs looking at you should not have had that much of a scar.  either the material or bit isnt square, bit flex (dont push hard to the side) and the farther you have your bit down increases the amount of error if the pieces arnt square and increases flex of the bit.

I'm not sure if you can see but I had the bearing just under elongated hole of the Domino so as close as I could be but on solid wood.  I also did not push but slowly came in trimming it down until I was close and then gently glided it across.  As you suspected, the wood is not 90 degrees for some reason which is strange to me ...

Here you can see my protractor set to 90, laying flat across the top, butted up to the side piece, which is clamped firm to the extrusion, yet there's a gap on the bottom which means the top is leaning closer to the bit hence the gouging.  I can pull out on the bottom of the side mounted board and eliminate the gap but I'm surprised I'd have to.  I cut these a month ago and they've been stacked flat but maybe being unbound from the main sheet they've began to warp?

I understand, if its something for you then roll with it since everything is cut already. if they fail then you will know what to do next time In the future cut the drawers the other way for max strength.  Trimming all the dominos as the last step after the glue dries will automatically fix the out of squareness you have going on as long as you make sure the drawer is assembled square if not the gouge wont be your only issue...

I understand, if its something for you then roll with it since everything is cut already. if they fail then you will know what to do next time In the future cut the drawers the other way for max strength.  Trimming all the dominos as the last step after the glue dries will automatically fix the out of squareness you have going on as long as you make sure the drawer is assembled square if not the gouge wont be your only issue...

I'll rotate this box and just cut them on the Kapex ... easy enough and I won't see the day they fall apart and I recall this conversation!

I've always thought you had to clamp under pressure to have a good solid joint ... does pin nailing really work over clamps or is it just for drawers which you'd suggest this?  BTW, I've Bostich pneumatic nailers, missing the pin nailer, but wondered if I shouldn't just go battery for portability?  I got pneumatic as I figured air compressors don't change but batteries may over the years ...

Quote from: afish on November 16, 2020, 09:10 PM

I understand, if its something for you then roll with it since everything is cut already. if they fail then you will know what to do next time In the future cut the drawers the other way for max strength.  Trimming all the dominos as the last step after the glue dries will automatically fix the out of squareness you have going on as long as you make sure the drawer is assembled square if not the gouge wont be your only issue...

I'll rotate this box and just cut them on the Kapex ... easy enough and I won't see the day they fall apart and I recall this conversation!

I've always thought you had to clamp under pressure to have a good solid joint ... does pin nailing really work over clamps or is it just for drawers which you'd suggest this?  BTW, I've Bostich pneumatic nailers, missing the pin nailer, but wondered if I shouldn't just go battery for portability?  I got pneumatic as I figured air compressors don't change but batteries may over the years ...

clamping is better but the pin nail will help hold it in place while you clamp it.  Truthfully I throw a clamp on from time to time but probably isn't necessary. It kind of depends on how big and awkward the drawer is. once the dominos are glued in the joint glue is just extra insurance at that point.  So if you feel you need a clamp to help hold it while working with the drawer by all means use a clamp or 2.

As far as battery vs. pneumatic I prefer pneumatic for shop/bench work and battery for doing trim construction work.  The battery units are bigger and heavier but dont require you to worry about a hose getting caught on anything and everything when dragging it from room to room.  When doing bench work the hose becomes less of an issue and the smaller lighter gun works better for me. So if i was starting out id get 18 & 15 ga finish gun in battery format. then a stapler 18ga. 1/4" crown and 23ga. pinner in pneumatic.   However, Dewalt my battery platform doesnt offer a cordless 23ga. pin nailer but when they do I will get one for working on prefinished trim.   

@Bugsysiegals check the square on your end cuts on the pieces. It appears that they might be off  90 just a smidge. That’s what could be causing the off square when you put them together.

Ron

The board is so thin it’s really hard to tell but looks like it could be just slightly off. I’d forgot about it until you mentioned it but I recently bought this digital protractor and discovered my TS-55 track saw, which was used to break these sheets down before adding some cuts on the table saw, was not exactly 90 degrees!!  I don’t recall how much it was off but I was certainly surprised to find it off. Thankfully I’ve only used it on 10 sheets of plywood for these shop cabinets so if they’re slightly off at least they’re only visible to me ... I’m just thankful I caught it in time to continue testing it before getting to my kitchen cabinets but my track saw and Kapex have each been off so I’ve learned every tool which can be calibrated must be checked.

Just a another quick note I wouldnt trust that digital angle finder for trying to determine edge squareness or critical squareness for that matter. While they are usually pretty accurate its not uncommon to have .1 error.  for checking for true squareness I find a small machinist square works best and hold it up with a bright light behind it will help highlight any error.

I thought as much also until I held it up to both my WoodPeckers square and 12” triangle for which it consistently said 90.00 every time ... seemed pretty accurate to me if the WP is claimed to be accurate to .001 over 12” or something like that?

The ones I have had would display 90 correctly when it was measured against a known square.  the problem was it would also display 90 if it wasnt a true 90.  I havent seen one yet that didnt have some slop in it.

I’ll have to try getting it where it just turns 90 and then see if I can see light up against my squares.  If you can, how do you calibrate something like the TS55 which can only cut so thick?  I suspect the naked eye can’t see as accurately as even a sloppy digital protractor?  I know you can use feeler gauges on metal but on an inch and a half thick wood I’m not sure how accurate the sliver of light test can be?

I would first check the blade to the base for square with a small machinist type square.  Then find some flat scrap and make a test cut. The thicker the better but 18mm will work fine.  If you wanted you could glue 2 pieces together so you would have almost 1.5 inch thick piece. MDF works well here flat and cheap and easy to cut. The track could possibly introduce some error into the equation so make a cut with the track. Check the test cut with the square holding it up to a bright light.  Mark the face that you put the track on so if there is any further adjustment needed you know which way to adjust the saw. The light test is actually very accurate.  Accurate enough for any type of wood working project. However I guess that also depends on the person and their eye. Its easy to spot if one side of the cut has no light and if there is a sliver of light at the other end.  I dont have hard numbers but a good eye could probably spot anything over a few thousands off.     

Quote from: Bugsysiegals on November 16, 2020, 06:30 PM

I was going to use my drawer lock router bit but my zero clearance fence isn't working as well as I'd like so I've decided to use Domino's instead.  I thought it would go smooth until the machine started feeling funny at the end of the plunge.  I wasn't sure what was going on until I removed the Domino ... the bottom of the bit flares out and the bit was elongating the hole as well as burning the wood! 

It seems I need to stop as soon as I feel this different feeling and then just cut off the excess Domino?  I'm unable to move on to the middle Domino until these are cut flush but wonder whether there's any particular type of hand saw I should buy which will cut the excess Domino while minimizing the scaring of the wood itself?

(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Hi @Bugsysiegals

I see in a couple of the pictures that you have posted that you have the Trend digital angle finder. Trend also do a rather nice folding pull saw. It has no set and so can cut flat on the surface of your drawers without marking them. The trick is to press the smooth surface of the blade against the drawer front as you saw (remember it cuts on the pull so do not push hard).

Peter

Thanks Peter, I'll have a look!

Now I'm curious whether it's thousands or hundredths of an inch that the human eye can detect with a machinist square and light ...

Thousandths...as in around .001-.002. More than that is easily verifiable using a feeler gauge.

I also concur with afish and would use a Woodpeckers square or a Starrett combination square, something where the blade cannot be moved from 90º.  The digital square is good for getting approximate angles.

An easy way to check that digital square is to set it at 90º, place it along an edge of a board and mark the blade length with a pencil, flip the square over and mark the blade length again.

Quote from: Bugsysiegals on November 17, 2020, 09:28 AM

Now I'm curious whether it's thousands or hundredths of an inch that the human eye can detect with a machinist square and light ...

Thousandths...as in around .001-.002. More than that is easily verifiable using a feeler gauge.

I also concur with afish and would use a Woodpeckers square or a Starrett combination square, something where the blade cannot be moved from 90º.  The digital square is good for getting approximate angles.

An easy way to check that digital square is to set it at 90º, place it along an edge of a board and mark the blade length with a pencil, flip the square over and mark the blade length again.

Interestingly enough when I zero my digital calipers and begin opening them up against sunlight I can see light as soon as it says 0.0005" but my caliper is only accurate to +/- 0.001" ... even still, I checked it against my feeler gauges and it accurately measures the first 3 which are 0.0015, 0.0020, and 0.0025 so if the eye can see light at 5 ten thousandths of an inch that's pretty impressive and accurate!

Yea, as I mentioned it's pretty darn accurate way to check quickly. I never tried to measure it but If there's a woodworking project that requires an edge to be more square then I can detect using a good fixed square and bright light I won't be anywhere near it and Im pretty finicky.  Its virtually splitting hairs at that point. Those digital protractors are good for running trim and such not for checking square when it counts.

For my Table Saw, I use the Wixey digital angle gauge which is accurate to within ±0.2°.  While only slightly less than the protractor, the max cutting depth on the TS is only 3 1/8" so the max error is 0.001".  Now I'll have to check that against a square and the light to get it down to 0.0005" accuracy!! 

Good luck with the drawers. Im sure if you stick with it and work out the bugs you will love doing the domino drawers.  One of these days Im going to try and do a drawer with the ddf40 and exposed dowels.  The ddf40 goes deeper so thats good but the domino will still look better I think.  For people who arnt in the know it looks really unique and looks difficult to do, so most love the look. At this point its really the only reason I havent sold my 500