Author Topic: "The Art & Science of The Jointmaker Pro" (Read 18133 times)

Roger Savatteri · « **on:** May 21, 2008, 01:27 PM »

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Update - 7.28.08 "The Jointmaker Pro"

In light of a completed review & updated information please redirect to ........

http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=3889.0

Also, In order to see the many attached photos you'll need to register as a member (it's free)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To all the members of FOG, Matthew, Michael and of course John Economaki thank you.

After all the anxiety of getting the posting pictures thing down, and revealing about what I do,

quicker than I was planning ........I'm actually feeling very humbled.

In the coming days I'm planning on outlining the methodology of my approach to

reviewing the Jointmaster Pro, I will be starting a new thread titled.....

"The Art & Science of Cutting Wood / The Jointmaker Pro "

to which I welcome everyone to participate in generating ideas.

thank you,

Monte

To everyone joining this thread for the first time we are discussing the new

Jointmaster Pro from Bridgecity Toolworks.

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/category/jointmaker-pro-stationary-hand-saw/

and please read.....

http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/First+Look+The+Bridge+City+Jointmaker+Pro.aspx

also for those new guests joining us for the first time and would like to see where this thread

started please go to.......http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=3556.0

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2008, 02:31 PM »

this post is from Dan Rush from another thread........

"I'm now confused as to which thread we should address questions for Monte to consider for his up-coming trip... so please move if needed.

Monte: If you can, try out some small (1/4" x 1/2" or 3/4"ish ) size mouldings. Brittle, prefinished cabinet type stuff would be perfect. As a cabinet installer, I cut miles of that stuff, and even with backers etc. I always wince and close my eyes when cutting really small pieces on the big saws.

Thanks, Dan"

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2008, 02:35 PM »

Thats exactly why I need this saw Dan. I will not be using it for joints at all, but cutting my smaller pieces.

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2008, 02:49 PM »

Dan, Nick.....

I have in my studio a whole box of foot long sample mouldings of different dimensions that I prefinished to

show a client a couple of years back, consider it on the plane. I also believe I have lenghts of pane moulding,

if I don't, I'll pick some up and prefinish it before the trip.

cheers,

Monte

Steve-CO · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2008, 07:35 PM »

I would think the blade is on the delicate side, what's the expected life of a blade (beyond that standard T&C's, "Depends on use....") and the replacement cost of a new one.

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2008, 08:16 PM »

20.00 each replacement blade.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2008, 09:12 PM »

Monte,

Here are some questions I posted in response to JJE's post at your original thread. Hopefully they will be answered before you go but here they are in case you need to check this out yourself.

Since it appears that the tables slide independently this provides an opportunity to set each table to produce a different angle doesn't it? Or, is the force required to push a piece of wood into the blade until it stops so high that it needs to be distributed across both tables simultaneously? Is there a need or means to lock both tables together. How securely are the tables attached to the rails? Is there any lateral play? Do they lift off?

With independent tables and movable workholding fences on the tables, what is the procedure for setting the fence or fences square to the blade? Do you reference back to the fence from the blade itself or is some part of the table itself suitable?

In the video the user is shown making apparently arbitrary adjustments to the two tables and fences and then cutting pins(?) for dovetails. What is the procedure for setting the fences to an angle that must match the angle the saw is set to in another operation? Have you envisioned or developed jigs to facilitate these settings?

How robust is the saw holding system? How reliable is the means of keeping the plane of the saw parallel to the sliding table rails? How is this adjusted?

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2008, 09:27 PM »

Monte please ask what day they will be released, I want mine yesterday.

Nickao

Dan Rush · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2008, 09:40 PM »

Monte,

Please "beat up " this machine a bit. I'm not a shop guy. How will this saw hold up moving from job to job? Are there adjustments or other "fine tuning procedures" we need to know about?

Just a few more thoughts, thanks, Dan

Robert Robinson · « **Reply #9 on:** May 22, 2008, 09:31 AM »

Quote from: Dan Rush on May 21, 2008, 09:40 PM

Monte,

Please "beat up " this machine a bit. I'm not a shop guy. How will this saw hold up moving from job to job? Are there adjustments or other "fine tuning procedures" we need to know about?

Just a few more thoughts, thanks, Dan

Imagine the look on their faces, when he steps into the room with a bag full of wood, sets it down and proceeds to beat up the machine. LMAO. It is a good point, I just got a visual of him doing that, and John wondering if the right guy was chosen.

Eli · « **Reply #10 on:** May 22, 2008, 10:25 AM »

Monte - I'd like to see you try and cut a joint you've never tried before. I don't care what kind of wood, In fact I think you won't have time to cut a million samples. I'd rather see what you can do in terms of complexity, something unpracticed, first sitting. Plan one bugger of a joint and see how much easier it is to do with the pro.

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #11 on:** May 22, 2008, 11:04 AM »

good morning.......

I'll have a "Jointmaker Pro / Portland" update later today. (midday....ish)

......west coast time

Monte

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2008, 05:23 PM »

FOG / BCT POST #1

"THE ART & SCIENCE OF THE JOINTMAKER PRO"

Hello from Southern California........

John & I spoke had a nice chat last evening. The Jointmaker Pro / Portland session is going to take place on June 3rd and 4th, giving us a little more time to converse and allow me to get my ducks in order.

After thanking John for the opportunity to run the Jointmaker Pro through its paces I sketched out a brief outline of how I would proceed. Yes, it's going to be fun and exciting testing out a new concept, especially at its birthplace.

Going beyond that in a more steady Zen approach, I'm going to Bridge City Tools with an open and clear mind ready for the unexpected to happen.

The core of my approach to the Jointmaker Pro will be exploring the possibilities of the slotted moving tables in combination of using the stops with the flexibility of the blade carriage .......this is where the magic will start.

(taking the JMP through test cuts exploring different joinery techniques with different woods at all different angles will occur through that process)

Upon my arrival at BCT John will take a couple of hours and introduce me to the intricacies of the JMP and then I'll be off on my own with my explorations and my FOG shopping list.

...a side note
I've decided to rename this thread to "The Art & Science of the Jointmaker Pro"

The Working Parts.....

Two independent 10" by 10" sliding tables, which run independently or together on anodized aluminum dovetailed ways (they can be connected by a sacrificial wooden fence and locked to each table with locking knobs). The ways are supported by front and back aluminum plates which serve as guides for the blade tilt mechanism. Two bottom rails serve as stretchers and more importantly, a means to fasten the saw to a work surface or bench.

The Blade carriage is adjustable to a maximum vertical cutting capacity of 1 5/8.
(the pitch of the blade is adjustable but does not impact maximum cutting depth). The blade can be tilted 45 degrees either direction.

The sliding table stroke distance is 16" and the maximum crosscut width is 6 inches and table over travel is buffered by rubber bumpers fore and aft.

The Dust.......

John was telling me that after two days of going at it he only had to use a Dustbuster to clean up. "Keep in mind that that as you are making a cut the residue falls directly downward".... So now you could work away in the corner of your living room on a table. The Jointmaker Pro needs to be fixed in place with clamps or screws, it does however work perfectly on carpet. If you're an architect or interior designer, you don't have to sequester model making to the back room. If you don't have a workshop, or a garage it's not a problem. And for those who are downsizing and moving into condos, it is now possible to still call yourself a woodworker.

The Blades......

BCT will offer the following blades:

Crosscut blade with 32tpi .....
Which is .3mm thick and ideal for moldings and stock up to about 2 in width.

Crosscut blade with 28tpi.....
Which is slightly thicker at .4mm and works well on anything.

Rip Blade
As of this writing will be 24-28 tpi (have not been made yet)

Production blades will all be under $20/retail

Portability.......

Assembled, (check out the website)

When shipped, the JMP fits within a box with inside dimensions approximately 28 x 12 x 4 and weighs just under 50 pounds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
all the best,
Monte

Per Swenson · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2008, 06:21 PM »

Hey Monte,

I am on the same page as Dan.

Will the Jointmaster take a beating?

If not will they consider a case for a $1,000 instrument?

Per

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2008, 06:29 PM »

Per, Dan......

Those are great questions.

We didn't discuss that in our chat.

These and those that follow I'll put into a question file for the Portland trip.

(John as of today is on vacation for a few days)

...............
Monte

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2008, 07:38 PM »

Quote from: monte on May 22, 2008, 05:23 PM

Portability.......

Assembled, (check out the website)

When shipped, the JMP fits within a box with inside dimensions approximately 28 x 12 x 4 and weighs just under 50 pounds.

Is this assembled? It seems taller than 4".

Thanks for the update Monte.

JJEconomaki · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2008, 08:14 PM »

Hi Folks-

We are looking forward to meeting Monte. Some of the questions on this machine posed so far can be answered by visiting;

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/What's+New/Jointmaker+Pro

The tool arrives broken down.

We purchased a case for $289 for an assembled Jointmaker Pro that I haul around for dog and pony shows--I will ask Michael to post a FYI link--it is waterproof and appears to be indestructible (unless shipped by UPS...)

If you think it is important to learn how to assemble the tool, we can have Monte put one together from scratch if you would like. (We will have online videos for such purpose down the road). It probably is a good idea--takes about two hours and we think it is fun.

Blades are designed to be replaced as opposed to be sharpened. With precision linear motion control, a hand sharpened blade will only cut as smooth as the most whacked out tooth--we don't believe there are many with the necessary sharpening skills, even if the teeth are stoned (eyesight is also an issue, 32 TPI is really small), one is certainly able to try however. We project replacement blades to be under $20 with TODAYS DOLLAR... They are the only component that is not American made.

Yes, there is an adjustable stop for repeatable depth of cuts in multiple pieces of wood. The tables are orange for a reason--in the video where we change the fence settings for the dovetail pins, we are aligning the fence to previously scribed pencil lines on the tops. All of the wooden fences are sacrificial, just like on a table saw sled. This is also how we get back to 90 degrees quickly. A reference line that is 20" long is darn accurate. One can always use a square too.

Lastly, there are only two adjustments prior to first cut--or if things get out of whack. The saw blade has to be adjusted parallel to table travel and the Nylatron ways have to be snugged to remove table slop--this surprisingly takes less than a couple of minutes for both. The keel can only get out of whack by some unforeseen significant force--car wreck, meteor, Wives Against Chris Schwarz...you get the idea. The Nylatron ways need to be adjusted over time--it's easy. In addition, this material appears to be slightly hygroscopic--I had a lengthy session on a Saturday, came in Sunday (it was raining) and my tables were snug--it took a couple of minutes to get them working like the puck on an air hockey table. We lube them with Teflon. They are designed to "give way" if somebody tries to do something outside of the scope of the tool--like try to crosscut a 16' plank of hardrock maple after losing a match on American Gladiators...

Have a great holiday weekend FOG members.

-John Economaki

PS: Not to be picky, but it is the Jointmaker Pro, not Jointmaster--and yes, there is a '60's joke in there somewhere...

Per Swenson · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2008, 08:38 PM »

My apologies John,

There are so many phrases that "Joint" naturally comes to mind and keyboard.

Per

Matthew Schenker · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2008, 09:18 PM »

Quote from: JJEconomaki on May 22, 2008, 08:14 PM

... PS: Not to be picky, but it is the Jointmaker Pro, not Jointmaster--and yes, there is a '60's joke in there somewhere...

Thanks for pointing that out! I fully understand the need for effective searches. I can edit the title of this discussion, and Monte can edit his post to make it "Jointmaker Pro."
Matthew

douglas2cats · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2008, 10:15 PM »

Hey folks - FOG Newbie here (well sort of).
Despite having a few Festools and signing up here almost a year ago this is my first post. I've been following this with a lot of interest. I recognize a number of folks here from SMC where we've also been discussing this. The great thing is that all of the questions I had have already been answered here in this thread.

So John E. - I just got one more question. When ya gonna hurry up an send me that email I signed up for so I can snap one of these up? My Economaki Stimulus Package check is waiting

Doug Shepard (signed up here with my email name)

neilc · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2008, 11:39 PM »

A few questions:

1 - can you walk through the process for cutting a tenon - particularly how the wood is held vertically, square, etc?
2 - John shows a "toothed joint" on the site / video. How is he indexing for cutting the teeth? Simple shims removed?
3 - related to above - what about an incra track that could allow shifting the cut by a consistent amount across a board, like when making a jewelry tray divider?
4 - Walk through the adjustable stops on the angle adjustment - which are fixed, which are adjustable?
5 - What is depth of cut at 45 degrees?
6 - What is the preferred method for setting angles with the fence? Blade tilt has a scale. But i don't recall seeing a miter angle.
7 - how long to change a blade?
8 - Can you give us a smoothness readout when you cut both soft woods like pine or basswood and hardwoods like Ipe or hard maple?
9 - repeatability - iike cutting a 1/4 inch groove in a 3/4 piece repeated on both ends for splined miters times several pieces - how to set up for consistency?
10 - what is the saw drag and number of strokes when cutting a 5 inch wide piece that may be 3/4 thick?
11 - setting depth of cut - as in wanting to cut a dovetail to a scribeed line

A few joint / cut ideas:
- splined miter
- half lap miter
- half lap joint
- constructing a 4 x 4 jewelry box divider with 4 or so dividers equally spaced
- 1/8 dados across 1/4 x 3/4 stock
- repeatable length cuts as in making matching sides of a picture frame
- compound miter cuts, as in a six sided cut with a 25 degree angle up to make a base to a turned vase

I'm sure you have many more, but these were a few ideas.

Have a good trip and take lots of photos / videos as possible.

neil

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #21 on:** May 23, 2008, 03:42 AM »

Per.......

I think I have the case John is talking about.

It's a Pelican.......http://www.pelican.com/cases_detail.php?Case=1630

It's the Papa Bear to the systainer, I've used it a lot when I had jobs out of town and I needed

to pack a select set of tools for the flight. Photographers use them a lot, built in wheels, foam inserts,

Retractable extension handle ........... the list goes on.

I was planning on using it to take misc. materials up to Portland, ...........hmmm.

..............
Monte

looks like this............

Per Swenson · « **Reply #22 on:** May 23, 2008, 06:49 AM »

Hmmmm. Monte, Hmmmm,

Its, 300 dollars.

I am a humble finish carpenter in a bad economy.

Just how well does cutting small stuff pay?

Which is why we are counting on you to tell us about the viability

of the Jointmaker for the vast spectrum of FOG potential purchasers.

Per

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #23 on:** May 23, 2008, 10:01 AM »

Quote from: Per Swenson on May 23, 2008, 06:49 AM

Hmmmm. Monte, Hmmmm,

Its, 300 dollars.

I am a humble finish carpenter in a bad economy.

Just how well does cutting small stuff pay?

Which is why we are counting on you to tell us about the viability

of the Jointmaker for the vast spectrum of FOG potential purchasers.

Per

Per......

Yes the Pelican is sexy, but if your not transporting the JMP on a plane

I would think a 3/4" plywood box made up with your domino or pocket screws,

Dado in a couple of slots, slide in a top,

a couple of wheels & a handle,

when you get to the jobsite, turn it over........

presto, you have a base.

(don't forget the knee pads)

......as to the viability factor, you bet I will.

..............
Monte

Per Swenson · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2008, 01:40 PM »

Good for you,

I just love when people use their real names.

Per

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #25 on:** May 23, 2008, 02:05 PM »

Quote from: Per Swenson on May 23, 2008, 01:40 PM

Good for you,

I just love when people use their real names.

Per

thank you Per........

In the spirit of full disclosure (in regards to my work) it was only the next logical step.

Roger aka monte

Matthew Schenker · « **Reply #26 on:** May 23, 2008, 02:36 PM »

Roger,
It's up to you, but you might want to just use your name "Roger Savatteri." Remember, once you change your user name, all your previous posts are updated to show the new name, so there's no longer a reason to add "aka Monte."
Matthew

Robert Robinson · « **Reply #27 on:** May 23, 2008, 03:55 PM »

Quote from: Matthew Schenker on May 23, 2008, 02:36 PM

Roger,
It's up to you, but you might want to just use your name "Roger Savatteri." Remember, once you change your user name, all your previous posts are updated to show the new name, so there's no longer a reason to add "aka Monte."
Matthew

If someone popped in and didn't realize he changed his name, it might be confusing though. Maybe the transition would be OK for awhile.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #28 on:** May 23, 2008, 05:32 PM »

Quote from: Per Swenson on May 23, 2008, 01:40 PM

Good for you,

I just love when people use their real names.

Per

Heard an interview on Fresh Air last week with Suze Rotolo. She was Bob Dylan's first girlfriend in NYC and is pictured walking with him on the cover of his album The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan. She has written a book, A Freewheelin' Time: A Memoir of Greenwich Village in the Sixties.

She said they had been living together for several months when Dylan came home a little drunk and while changing his clothes his wallet fell on the floor and Robert Zimmerman's draft card fell out. "Is that you?"

"What's in your wallet?"

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #29 on:** May 23, 2008, 11:02 PM »

Quote from: JJEconomaki on May 22, 2008, 08:14 PM

Hi Folks-

We are looking forward to meeting Monte. Some of the questions on this machine posed so far can be answered by visiting;

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/What's+New/Jointmaker+Pro

The tool arrives broken down.

We purchased a case for $289 for an assembled Jointmaker Pro that I haul around for dog and pony shows--I will ask Michael to post a FYI link--it is waterproof and appears to be indestructible (unless shipped by UPS...)

If you think it is important to learn how to assemble the tool, we can have Monte put one together from scratch if you would like. (We will have online videos for such purpose down the road). It probably is a good idea--takes about two hours and we think it is fun.

Blades are designed to be replaced as opposed to be sharpened. With precision linear motion control, a hand sharpened blade will only cut as smooth as the most whacked out tooth--we don't believe there are many with the necessary sharpening skills, even if the teeth are stoned (eyesight is also an issue, 32 TPI is really small), one is certainly able to try however. We project replacement blades to be under $20 with TODAYS DOLLAR... They are the only component that is not American made.

Yes, there is an adjustable stop for repeatable depth of cuts in multiple pieces of wood. The tables are orange for a reason--in the video where we change the fence settings for the dovetail pins, we are aligning the fence to previously scribed pencil lines on the tops. All of the wooden fences are sacrificial, just like on a table saw sled. This is also how we get back to 90 degrees quickly. A reference line that is 20" long is darn accurate. One can always use a square too.

Lastly, there are only two adjustments prior to first cut--or if things get out of whack. The saw blade has to be adjusted parallel to table travel and the Nylatron ways have to be snugged to remove table slop--this surprisingly takes less than a couple of minutes for both. The keel can only get out of whack by some unforeseen significant force--car wreck, meteor, Wives Against Chris Schwarz...you get the idea. The Nylatron ways need to be adjusted over time--it's easy. In addition, this material appears to be slightly hygroscopic--I had a lengthy session on a Saturday, came in Sunday (it was raining) and my tables were snug--it took a couple of minutes to get them working like the puck on an air hockey table. We lube them with Teflon. They are designed to "give way" if somebody tries to do something outside of the scope of the tool--like try to crosscut a 16' plank of hardrock maple after losing a match on American Gladiators...

Have a great holiday weekend FOG members.

-John Economaki

PS: Not to be picky, but it is the Jointmaker Pro, not Jointmaster--and yes, there is a '60's joke in there somewhere...

I told 'ya! Gotta get that Vespel.

Let's see, at McMaster.com

87405K23
Polyimide (Vespel) Rod 1/2" Diameter
In stock at $36.24 per In.

"The sliding table stroke distance is 16" and the maximum crosscut width is 6 inches and table over travel is buffered by rubber bumpers fore and aft."

Each table slides on two rails so if the rails were topped with Vespel that would require 16" X 4 = 64" of Vespel at $36.24 per inch = $2319.36.

Hmmmm....Nylatron might work!

Just kidding. Besides, Vespel is hygroscopic too. As far as I can tell the rails are aluminum milled to form a long male dovetail so only small amount of Nylatron (or Vespel) is required to function as a gliding bearing.

Can't wait to see some hi-rez pictures of this thing.

Maybe there is something on TV...

Henrik R / Pingvinlakrits · « **Reply #30 on:** May 24, 2008, 05:39 AM »

Hey, there is a lot of good stuff happening here, look forward to the seeing progress of this thread.

neilc · « **Reply #31 on:** June 05, 2008, 09:18 PM »

Hey Monte -

Any update on your trip to Portland?

neil

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #32 on:** June 05, 2008, 09:27 PM »

hi .......

Just letting everyone know that I'll start posting by this weekend.

(I just got back at midnight last night)

I had a wonderfully, inspired and informative trip, with a lot to share.

all the best,

Roger

Eli · « **Reply #33 on:** June 06, 2008, 07:47 AM »

Sweet!

Matthew Schenker · « **Reply #34 on:** June 06, 2008, 07:48 AM »

Monte,
You're got a nice fan base! We're all eager to hear how it went.
If you need any help putting together photos, let me know.
Matthew

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #35 on:** June 09, 2008, 02:24 PM »

To Everyone at FOG.....

Posting will commence sometime later today.

I am working out some technical issues with Matt,

It has to do with the way I would like to display the review.

thank you for your patience.

Roger

Jim Kirkpatrick · « **Reply #36 on:** June 09, 2008, 02:32 PM »

Oh Roger, you are a tease.

Steve-CO · « **Reply #37 on:** June 09, 2008, 04:51 PM »

Looks like a very thorough review coming our way, thanks in advance for your efforts.

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #38 on:** June 09, 2008, 04:57 PM »

To Fog Members & Guests

For ease of reference to new readers I am starting my review with it's introduction at a new thread titled...........

"The Jointmaker Pro" A Paradigm Shift in Woodworking

Redirect here.....http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=3889.msg45112;topicseen#msg45112

thank you,
Roger Savatteri