Author Topic: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw (Read 5194 times)

rvieceli · « **Reply #30 on:** March 18, 2023, 05:54 AM »

@4nthony You really need a CALIBRATED reference surface plate and an indicator holder with no flex to take meaningful measurements of the plate.

Woodpeckers has a 30 day return policy for a full refund without a restocking fee. You would normally be required to pay shipping. Given that you seem to have gotten an example that slipped through quality control, I'd be sure to request a return shipping label on their dime.

Up to you on whether you want to try again with another one or toss in the towel and just get the refund.

Ron

derekcohen · « **Reply #31 on:** March 18, 2023, 06:55 AM »

Quote

I rigged up my dial indicator onto a piece of scrap and clamped it as snug as possible to the 1-2-3 block. I slid the block along the table and noted some deviation.

Are you measuring the plate or your table?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #32 on:** March 18, 2023, 08:38 AM »

A guy like you should have a granite test plate. More generally anyone who owns a dial indicator should have a truly flat reference surface and a couple of ways to hold the indicator.

To properly test that WP plate you need to clamp the opposite side arbor area on top of a 1-2-3 block which is on top of a granite surface plate/stone. (You need to test whether the part that engages the arbor is parallel to the surface you are try to make parallel to the miter slot. To that end, both sides of the plate should be surface ground.)

Then mount your indicator to a stable enough fixture that you can run it across the same surface plate. An 8x10 stone might be big enough but bigger is better.

But your test is good enough to show that your WP plate should be replaced, or if you’re generous, just don’t use that really bad end.

Cheese · « **Reply #33 on:** March 18, 2023, 10:08 AM »

Quote from: 4nthony on March 18, 2023, 02:00 AM

There's a night and day difference in the two sides of my plate. The side with the logo is so smooth that the dial indicator left a bunch of streaks.

That's exactly what the indicator tip should do, it should leave marks on the precision ground surface.

While at the same time, if you place some Dykem on the end of the indicator tip and move it along the blanchard ground surface, that surface will probably remove some of the Dykem from the indicator tip.

Like Ron, Derek & Michael mentioned, you should think about "owning" a flat surface.

I purchased one of these from Woodcraft for around $35, Woodcraft puts them on sale about every 6-8 months. For the money it really is a steal and you can also attach 3M lapping film on it and flatten the backs of chisels or plane blades. The equivalent item with the equivalent specs would cost $206 if it has the Starrett name on it.

https://www.woodcraft.com/products/granite-surface-plate-9-x-12-x-2-a-grade

4nthony · « **Reply #34 on:** March 18, 2023, 11:18 AM »

Quote from: derekcohen on March 18, 2023, 06:55 AM

Are you measuring the plate or your table?

I considered that, hence my previous comment:

Quote from: 4nthony on March 18, 2023, 02:00 AM

Then I started thinking my tables are probably not perfectly flat and maybe the 1-2-3 block is riding across undulations in the table. Do I want to check every inch of cast iron to look for a perfect 12" section that I can use to check if the plate is flat? How far down this rabbit hole do I want to go?

I did a few more tests, passing the plate under the dial indicator. My thinking was the 12" of plate would pass over any changes in table flatness. I thought I had a clip of the surface ground side but I guess I only hit record on the blanchard ground side.

Is the glass I rested the block on flat? None of my cast iron is perfectly flat. I'm chasing perfection in an imperfect environment.

Quote from: rvieceli on March 18, 2023, 05:54 AM

Woodpeckers has a 30 day return policy for a full refund without a restocking fee. You would normally be required to pay shipping. Given that you seem to have gotten an example that slipped through quality control, I'd be sure to request a return shipping label on their dime.

I'll see what they say on Monday. Unfortunately, I tossed the packaging it came in on the day it arrived.

My local Woodcraft has the granite plate in stock. Maybe I'll dive just a tiny bit deeper down this rabbit hole...

Thanks all!

grbmds · « **Reply #35 on:** March 18, 2023, 12:43 PM »

Woodpeckers has always provided the highest level of service to me; at least once beyond even what I would have expected. If the plate doesn't meet their stated specs, I believe they would replace it. I can't believe they would want you to be dissatisfied because their product didn't meet their specs.

dicktill · « **Reply #36 on:** March 18, 2023, 01:08 PM »

Ah, one of my pet peeves of indicator measuring, and extremely common. With this type of indicator, the arm needs to be parallel (or as close as possible to parallel) to the surface being measured or you get the dreaded "cosine error". In the screen capture above, the arm is about 45 degrees to the surface being measured, and hence a change in the surface of say 0.010" will read about 0.007" on the dial, i.e. 0.010" times cosine 45 degrees = 0.010" times 0.7071 = ~0.007".

With the "other type" of dial indicator (plunge type), a similar error can occur if the plunger isn't perpendicular to the surface being measured, but this is less commonly abused to a great extent.

You can confirm my analysis by sticking a 0.010" feeler gauge under the arm or plunger and see what reading you get.

Cheese · « **Reply #37 on:** March 18, 2023, 02:24 PM »

Quote from: dicktill on March 18, 2023, 01:08 PM

Ah, one of my pet peeves of indicator measuring, and extremely common. With this type of indicator, the arm needs to be parallel (or as close as possible to parallel) to the surface being measured or you get the dreaded "cosine error".

Ya, that's always been an issue and most people are not aware of it. Brown & Sharpe and Starrett claim the difference is negligible if the arm angle is 15º or less, while Interapid indicators are designed to give a true reading when the arm angle is 12º.

I find it easier to adjust the arm angle to 15º or so rather than trying to place the indicator at 12º, although I'm sure Interapid's method is more accurate. Interapid even refers to its vertical & horizontal indicators as the INTERAPID® 312 Vertical & Horizontal Models.

dicktill · « **Reply #38 on:** March 18, 2023, 04:03 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on March 18, 2023, 02:24 PM

Quote from: dicktill on March 18, 2023, 01:08 PM
Ah, one of my pet peeves of indicator measuring, and extremely common. With this type of indicator, the arm needs to be parallel (or as close as possible to parallel) to the surface being measured or you get the dreaded "cosine error".

Ya, that's always been an issue and most people are not aware of it. Brown & Sharpe and Starrett claim the difference is negligible if the arm angle is 15º or less, while Interapid indicators are designed to give a true reading when the arm angle is 12º.

I find it easier to adjust the arm angle to 15º or so rather than trying to place the indicator at 12º, although I'm sure Interapid's method is more accurate. Interapid even refers to its vertical & horizontal indicators as the INTERAPID® 312 Vertical & Horizontal Models.

Makes sense: the cosine of 12 degrees is 0.978, and of 15 degrees is 0.966, so only "a-couple-three" percent error anyway, even if they didn't calibrate at that/those spots. It's when you get into larger angles that the error soars.

4nthony · « **Reply #39 on:** March 20, 2023, 02:01 PM »

I spoke to Woodpecker's this morning. They are sending out a new plate as a warranty claim.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Edit:

On the topic of flatness, I found this video interesting:

alltracman78 · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2023, 10:39 AM »

Very informative and interesting thread.

I have a bunch of woodpeckers stuff and the couple of times I've had a problem I picked up the phone and they've promptly fixed it.

4nthony · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2023, 11:09 AM »

Regarding the surface ground and blanchard ground sides, when I did the warranty claim and asked if both sides should be surface ground, the tech wasn't sure and said he'd get back to me.

I received shipping confirmation this morning and the email mentioned:

Quote

FINAL UNIT INSPECTED AND CHECKED ON VISION EQUIPMENT.

FINAL POLISH IS ONLY ON ONE SIDE BY DESIGN. BLANCHARD FINISH ON OPPOSITE SIDE.

In the videos, both sides are used. Maybe early models were surface ground on both sides or the blanchard ground side was used by mistake.

Quote from: alltracman78 on March 31, 2023, 10:39 AM

I have a bunch of woodpeckers stuff and the couple of times I've had a problem I picked up the phone and they've promptly fixed it.

This is the only time I've received a product and something didn't feel right. The other times I've had to call customer service were for a missing Rack-It and a wrongly-sized ruler.

4nthony · « **Reply #42 on:** April 23, 2023, 01:10 AM »

I got my replacement plate a couple weeks ago and had some time to mount it on my saw today.

In lieu of taking a bunch of photos showing blade alignment and measuring how flat the plate may or may not be, I'll just say that the new plate shows a nice linear progression from 0.0 at the start, to .003 at the arbor, to .006 at the far end.

Exactly the type of results I was expecting to see.

krudawg · « **Reply #43 on:** September 15, 2023, 06:12 PM »

Quote from: 4nthony on March 14, 2023, 04:25 AM

A few days ago, I received the Align-A-Saw kit from Woodpeckers. I've never had any table saw alignment issues but I've got some strong OCD tendencies so I placed an order when this was announced.

I set it up on my saw, grabbed my trusty Woodpecker's Saw Gauge 2.0, and started taking some measurements.

At the front of the Saw Plate, I set the gauge to zero.

I moved to the middle of the Saw Plate and the gauge moved very slightly + of 0

I moved to the back of the Saw Plate and my gauge moved to .004.

I moved the Saw Gauge to the opposite miter slot and took a measurement on the "rough side" of the Saw Plate.

At the front and set to 0.

Middle of the Saw Plate, just a hair -0 (-.0998?)

At the rear of the Saw Plate, (-.094-ish)

I noticed in the Deep Dive video, @jeffinsgf takes his measurement on the side of the Saw Plate without the logo markings.

I wanted another measurement with the rough side of the Saw Plate and the Saw Gauge back in the left miter slot, so I remounted the Plate.

At the front I set the Saw Gauge to zero.

I centered the Saw Gauge and the front half measured ~.0075 (sorry about the glare).

And finally, at the back of the Saw Plate, my measurement remained at .0075.

So it looks like I've got a Saw Plate that is incredibly flat for 6", then it goes beyond the tolerance for the remaining 6". According to the specs, the Saw Plate should have a tolerance of .002.

In the video, Jeff gets "about a thousandth of an inch" across the entire width of the Saw Plate.

Also, the rougher side of my Saw Plate has, what looks to be a faded sharpie marking of "344". No clue what that means but the number is very close to the .004 I got above (.00344, perhaps?).

Anyway, I'm not going to adjust my table based on measurements from this tool as I don't think my table is out of alignment enough to warrant an adjustment. As shown in the video, it would've been nice to see a near perfect measurement across the entire width of the Saw Plate rather than half of the plate. Or, a gradual increase from front to back and not from center to back.

Based on this unscientific review, I'll give this Woodpecker's product 2-1/2 out of 5 stars. :-)

Seems pratical but my "Over-Priced" Meter is pegged

Author Topic: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw (Read 5194 times)

rvieceli

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

derekcohen

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

Michael Kellough

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

Cheese

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

4nthony

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

grbmds

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

dicktill

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

Cheese

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

dicktill

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

4nthony

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

alltracman78

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

4nthony

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

4nthony

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw

krudawg

Re: Woodpecker's Align-A-Saw