Author Topic: The Complete "Jointmaker Pro" Review..... A Paradigm Shift in Woodworking (Read 172264 times)

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #90 on:** September 07, 2008, 01:21 PM »

No they are taking pre-orders only. I am hoping to have it by Thanksgiving for 950.00.

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #91 on:** September 07, 2008, 02:17 PM »

Hello again Nick,

Nice to see you around again, regarding the JMP.......Hmm, Just a thought, I'm not quite sure that you should count on cutting Wooden Turkey centerpieces for your Thanksgiving day table setting with your Jointmaker Pro. Wooden Ornaments for the big tree in December might be a more realistic goal.

Also, my understanding is that the pre-order price is $995 plus shipping ($59.,I believe, ...and that's unassembled) (The $995. is with the BCTW Founders Circle membership) and that is until September 15th 2008. See.....http://www.bridgecitytools.com/Products/What's+New/Jointmaker+Pro

all the best,
Roger

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #92 on:** September 07, 2008, 02:27 PM »

Oops yes 995.00, I am in the Founders club and I am in no rush, Christmas is fine for me.

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #93 on:** September 17, 2008, 06:14 PM »

Squiggle Wood >>>>

Inspiring.......Out of the box thinking,

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #94 on:** September 17, 2008, 10:05 PM »

That just gave me a bunch of ideas!

Craig Earls · « **Reply #95 on:** September 22, 2008, 12:52 AM »

I am very interested in this tool, and the price seems reasonable given the obvious quality of the materials and the likelihood that BCT will only sell a few hundred of them over the next several years which leads me to my one big reservation about this tool: The custom saw blades. If for any reason BCT ceases production of this tool how will replacement blades be found? A quick perusal of the BCT website shows they seem to be good at providing consumables for tools that are out of production, but these are pretty special items and much more difficult to produce than plane irons.

JJEconomaki · « **Reply #96 on:** September 22, 2008, 01:30 PM »

Craig:

I am writing to alleviate your concerns regarding replacement blades for the Jointmaker Pro.

As you know, these blades are specially designed for this tool. We have invested in the dies to have them produced in Japan and our Japanese supplier is one of, if not the oldest production hand saw company in Japan--they are also the best. The investment in dies means that the production quantities are manageable. If for whatever reason something happens to us (we are 25 years young) another firm or individual will pick up the replacement blade opportunity.

It is our intent to have supplies in Europe (Michael leaves this week to visit our European distributor), Japan and hopefully Australia. Of course we will have inventory in Portland.

I am more worried at the moment about the value of the dollar than I am about blade availability.

That said, we still don't know how long a blade actually lasts, but I will share our/my experiences with blade longevity.

First, it is highly recommended to have spare blades if you are going to use the tool. We have yet to wear a blade out, and we really tried making Squiggle wood. We do however manage to trash blades through accidents. For example;

I was doing a demo recently in Tokyo and forgot to retract the blade. I started a new cut and crashed the wood into the front of the blade--good bye blade. Of course I did this with a crowd watching (isn't that always the case?). Unfortunately my choice of words needed no translation...

If the blade is tilted and your stock is not firmly clamped in the sliding table, the negative feed can force the stock upward against a tilted blade and that is not good for blade longevity.

I have, through carelessness, set wood across the rails and bent teeth--good-bye blade.

And while I am on the subject of blades, here is our experience with the three blades we are producing for the Jointmaker Pro;

The 32TPI .3mm crosscut blade is incredible for small cross-section stock (.5" x .5") however it does not track well in deep cheek cuts. But the cuts it makes are just awesome.

The 28 TPI .4mm crosscut blade is by far the most versatile and we rarely take it off our saws. It works for just about everything we have tried. This is the blade that creates endgrain cuts smoother than any other saw.

We use the rip blade for larger tenons and lots of dovetails. However these are square cut teeth and they clog easily so we only use this blade when there is volume.

Lastly, we hope to find a company with deeper pockets who can produce this saw for a broader market and part of any deal will be a continuation of the original blade profile.

Lastly, I haven't built anything in 25 years because I am hyper-allergic to wood dust. But I am going to start when the production model is released--I have too many ideas for this tool to let the opportunities rot in my head. So I too need blades--and you can bet that Squiggle wood is on my mind....

I hope this helps.

John Economaki
President
Bridge City Tool Works

PS: It is not going to take us several years to sell "a couple of hundred" Jointmaker Pros.

Eli · « **Reply #97 on:** September 22, 2008, 05:21 PM »

Thanks John for that. Do you think the involvement of a 'company with deeper pockets' would ultimately be a move that would see a more widely produced model, ie, one with fewer features or material substitution that would allow a JMP model to be more economical? Or would scaling production up naturally reduce price through volume?

JJEconomaki · « **Reply #98 on:** September 22, 2008, 06:07 PM »

I suggest there are many parts that can be produced from composites or plastic. Production molds would run well into the hundreds of thousands dollars--money we simply don't have.

Regarding features, I don't think anything should be left out. We have made some improvements after Roger's visit to Portland that I am excited about; the table tops now feature a threaded hole array for user jigs and the front and rear plates feature a hole array for a user-built dead-man for longer stock or for a user built tool caddy.

The current manifestation could benefit a little by economies of scale (mainly the CNC set-up expenses amortized over a larger run) but the price of metal and anodizing per unit would likely not be impacted significantly--these two expenses alone are well over $200 and unfortunately, getting higher EVERY DAY. Anybody who is making products from metal knows that this is the craziest time anybody has seen--and we've been doing this for 25 years.

We are chasing a bigger picture with this tool and the timing certainly could be better. In our opinion, and most of those who have seen and actually used the tool, there is a value proposition. Accuracy without noise is a message that really resonates with some woodworkers. That said, it is not for everybody and we know that.

I really don't find much value in price comparisons because there are too many variables involved. However they can be thought provoking...

Automobiles are a great deal when you consider for $15-30K you are the beneficiary of billions of dollars of R & D and mass-production efficiencies. On the other hand, I saw an infomercial the other night for the Kreg pocket hole jig @$100. I thought to myself, geez 10 Kreg jigs equals a JMP-and 30 JMP's equals a new Acura TSX. None of this makes sense to me.

The real question is which of these examples is likely to still be around in 100 years? Certainly not the TSX...

John Economaki
Bridge City Tool Works

Craig Earls · « **Reply #99 on:** September 22, 2008, 06:17 PM »

Quote from: JJEconomaki on September 22, 2008, 01:30 PM

PS: It is not going to take us several years to sell "a couple of hundred" Jointmaker Pros.

I sincerely hope you sell a million! Thank you for the reassurance on consumable availability. I am budgeting one in for mid next year!

Eli · « **Reply #100 on:** September 22, 2008, 09:42 PM »

Quote from: JJEconomaki on September 22, 2008, 06:07 PM

I suggest there are many parts that can be produced from composites or plastic. Production molds would run well into the hundreds of thousands dollars--money we simply don't have.

The real question is which of these examples is likely to still be around in 100 years? Certainly not the TSX...

John Economaki
Bridge City Tool Works

The plastics was more where I was coming from. I couldn't see any features that might have been easily left out, but assumed you'd know better than me. I agree it's a tool that appears more 'sustainable' than any I've seen in a while. Thanks for having a personal prescence here, it's appreciated.

Baldock · « **Reply #101 on:** December 11, 2008, 12:10 PM »

This subject has certainly tapered off...

Has anyone heard of a ship date? Are we going to make it for Christmas?
+
$:-\$

neilc · « **Reply #102 on:** December 11, 2008, 08:12 PM »

Not for the holidays - Likely shipping in January - I talked to BCTW yesterday.

neil

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #103 on:** January 28, 2009, 03:45 PM »

For those waiting for the big brown truck to come over the horizon....

Here's a reprint on a Jointmaker Pro update from John's blog over at Bridge City Tools..... http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/

cheers,
Roger Savatteri

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jointmaker Pro Update
January 27th, 2009
Two weeks ago we received all of the components for the Jointmaker Pro-holy cow, I have never seen a BCTW project with so many parts! Prior to anodizing the aluminum parts, we assembled one unit and the results are....

Spectacular-in every sense! For those that have seen the prototype in action, the production version features over 80 changes and all I can say is I thought the prototypes were cool, but now, like everyone else waiting for delivery, I CAN'T WAIT to get mine!

Parts come back from the anodizer this week and they are off to the laser house next week. Packaging for both versions (unassembled and assembled) are finalized, and we have decided to forgo a written assembly manual for a DVD or web-based assembly tutorial which we will finish next week. Lastly, the saw blades should arrive from Japan any day now (it took 4 months to make all of these blades).

We also decided to do a little bit of sub-assembly work for the unassembled versions for those who have limited assembly experience. Now, all one needs is to be able to do is insert and tighten screws.

While the components were being manufactured I took the JMP on the road to a couple of the Lie-Nielson Hand Tool Events (if you can go to one of these, they are intimate, fun and educational). One thing became apparent to me after demonstrating this tool for eight hours straight - my back ached.

As a result, we redesigned the stand so the back of the Jointmaker Pro is now 3" higher than the front. This accomplishes two important things, it shortens the sawing stroke and it makes it easier to see your cuts. It is one of those counter-intuitive decisions that really makes using the tool fun. I demonstrated this change to show attendees and everyone agrees this is an awesome improvement. Whether you use our stand, or make your own, we recommend inclining the Jointmaker Pro without hesitation.

As those patiently waiting know, we have taken our time to make sure the user experience is going to be as flawless as possible. We can't wait to learn how our owners use this transformative tool - it truly changes your perspective on project ideas.

Lastly, I am on the second week of my annual two-week work retreat. I would have posted this update last week but I am in Utah and forgot the password into my blog...

This whole password thing is really getting to be an issue for my aging brain.

- John

Frank Pellow · « **Reply #104 on:** January 28, 2009, 05:02 PM »

Quote from: Roger Savatteri on January 28, 2009, 03:45 PM

...

While the components were being manufactured I took the JMP on the road to a couple of the Lie-Nielson Hand Tool Events

...
(if you can go to one of these, they are intimate, fun and educational). One thing became apparent to me after demonstrating this tool for eight hours straight - my back ached.

...

I think that the best way to sell these at this stage is to demo them at such events.

Lie Neilson will be present at the Toronto Woodworking Show from Feb 27 to Mar 1. It would be great to see this demoed there.

daveg · « **Reply #105 on:** January 29, 2009, 11:24 AM »

I've been patiently waiting for mine. It's been frustrating since it was ordered at the end of Oct 2008. There were several slips in the ship date that was given. Hopefully, it will be worth the wait.

Jesse Cloud · « **Reply #106 on:** January 29, 2009, 04:04 PM »

I'm patiently waiting, too. I hope they take as much time as they need to do it right!
Thanks for the update John.

Deke · « **Reply #107 on:** February 01, 2009, 12:41 AM »

Have to say the video says it all and the first few pages of this thread were just overwhelming with text. As someone who writes too much, I now how people feel! :-)

You really had me, but when I went to the site and saw this going for 1200 AND I have to put it together, I'm sorry. It just seems out of whack. I am not arguing that mfging all this is not expensive, but I'm talking about consumer cost/pricing side of things. This would be way down on my list even though it could do lots of things I do and want to do. That's a lot of planes, saws, Festool stuff... to compete with in the old "wish list."

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #108 on:** February 04, 2009, 02:03 AM »

Update on the update..........

just received this note from John........

................................................................

I just returned from a two week work retreat to find all the components
for the JMP in our warehouse--what a sight indeed!

The laser work is just fantastic. The new depth stop works better than I
had hoped, actually it is perfect. Today we see the new stand.

Packaging is designed and we are working on the final assembly video.

I can't remember being more excited about a job here in 25 years. We
should begin shipping as soon as the blades arrive (any day now).

John

Roger Savatteri · « **Reply #109 on:** February 08, 2009, 04:52 AM »

Link to John's latest blog entry.........

http://www.bridgecitytools.com/blog/

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #110 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:05 AM »

To bad I had to bail on this the wait did not coincide with my income cash flow during this housing crunch. January has been the busiest month I have ever had in 5 years though, so something is up.

With the new price I just can not get on board. To bad the housing crunch coincided with the initial ordering price on this, even being in the founders club it is just to much for me now.

Let me know how it works out for you guys.

Tinker · « **Reply #111 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:31 AM »

Quote from: nickao on February 08, 2009, 08:05 AM

To bad I had to bail on this the wait did not coincide with my income cash flow during this housing crunch. January has been the busiest month I have ever had in 5 years though, so something is up.

Nick, As I think you are now, I have always been a one or two man operation, whether in construction or landscaping. I have, over the past 60+/- years managed to keep busy thru every economy setback that has come along. I have always kept my jobs bids within a scope and size at which I could perform within my own capabilities. When business was booming statewide or nationally, i was often very slow. People were willing to spend money on very large projects, even new homes of extravagent size. I still stuck to smaller work. If a job was going to take more than a couple of weeks, I tended to stay away. I avoided taking on extra help (I once had seven employees and got severely burned as a result, probably from my own inadequacies business wise.) BUT, when work slowed down for the big boys, I was almost always so busy i could not keep up. I continued to stay within my own scope and knew how to bid within my own limitations. The profits were there for me while others of larger scale were suffering.

I am now just as busy as ever with my landscaping, mainly because I am staying within the boundaries of my own physical capabilities. I am sure you are experiencing the same sort of phenomenon by staying within the bounds of your own small shop with no employees. With the quality of your work, i am sure you will weather this storm very well. If you think a tool would be of long term value to your operation, I think now is a time for the small biz guy to take serious look. Just MHO.
Tinker

Justin F. · « **Reply #112 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:21 PM »

Quote from: nickao on February 08, 2009, 08:05 AM

To bad I had to bail on this the wait did not coincide with my income cash flow during this housing crunch. January has been the busiest month I have ever had in 5 years though, so something is up.

Alright Nick ! --- that is good to hear.

Justin

wnagle · « **Reply #113 on:** February 08, 2009, 08:02 PM »

Nick,

I'm glad to hear your orders are up! I also decided to wait on ordering the JMP till things pick up. My work has slowed a bit the last 3-4 months so I gotta slow down the spending for a while. The JMP is just one of many items on my "tools to buy" list. I still need to upgrade my dust collection piping and automate it with a green box, finish my miter station, build a shed, and a handful of cabinets and rolling carts for my shop. I did finally get the new furnace and heat pump working correctly so I have no excuses to get going on things.

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #114 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:46 PM »

If they ran another first offering price of the 950.00 for the founders members or something I bet they could sell enough new units to cover the difference of less sales with the higher price. I know I would get one at the lower price.

Oh well, sometimes waiting is best as they come up with improvements over the years.

Tinker · « **Reply #115 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:23 AM »

I think I'm with you, Nick, on the pricing part.
The main holdback for me on the JMP is when I look at their website and see so many really great great tools that have been archived and no longer available. The tools that they do have available all seem to be very expensive.
i am wondering if their sales philosophy is to develope the best tools they can, set a price for immediate profit, produce a medium run and get out while sales are still hot and so not end up with high inventory. The JMP has just enough moving parts, and the special production blades that I am aprehentious about making the plunge at even the $950 price you mention. What will happen by the time the moving parts begin failing, or I will need new sets of blades. Will I have to search E-bay? I would just like to see more evidence that they are sincere in keeping a good supply of the tools and consumables they produce. (Are you listening John E?Comment would be appreciated)
Tinker

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #116 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:57 AM »

If business did not slow I would have had the 950.00 deal so for me it was the timing only. I am willing to purchase and take a chance on the future. I had to do what I had to do and the 950.00 actually came in handy during the months of the wait. It is not a whole lot of money, but it actually helped a great deal while business was so slow. I had other things happen to hit our family income in addition to the business slowing. If there was no wait I would have the tool though.

I was planning on posting on my web site showing how to make an entire floor inlay using only the JMP, but at 1250.00 and shipping, plus blades I just can not do it. 300.00 makes the difference at this point, last summer the additional cost would not have mattered.

If you do get it Tinker let me how it works out for you.

Tinker · « **Reply #117 on:** February 09, 2009, 08:43 AM »

For me at the moment, the extra $300 is the killer. In my biz, i can never keep up with cash flow from April thru June. last season, the problems lasted thru July. Along about late august will be the earliest I even begin to rethink about the JMP. right now, I am interrested in the FlatMaster from Stockroom Supply. I can put it tto use immediately. That is a somewhat of a copycat of the SandFlee. SF is way overpriced as far as I can see right now, but Stockroom Supply does have options that are interesting. My problem with SRS is that I sent them an E-mail question and have received no reply. If I do not hear from them soon, I will start rethinking about the SandFlee. My problem with SF is weight. Much too heavy for my tired old back discs to be rastlin' on and off of temp support bench. If anybody has used either of these, I would be interested to hear from. Probably best as another subject line.
Tinker

Dovetail65 · « **Reply #118 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:15 PM »

That flat master cost almost a thousand bucks. Why not get a used Performax(Jet) or even the Delta drum sander at about 1000.00 it is the same price and looks a whole lot better to me.

I will be selling my 22-44 Performax to get the newer Jet Oscillating 22-44 drum sander.

I agree I would need time to develop a procedure to use the Jointmaster pro, but I really want one. Sometimes you can not have everything you want, this is one of those times. It is my kids school trip to Washington for 1350.00 or the Jointmaster pro. Well this is a once in a lifetime thing for her so there really is no choice for me right now.

Nick

Steve-CO · « **Reply #119 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:29 PM »

My kid went to Washington last year, had a great time, good choice there. I don't ever remember trips like this growing up, we maybe got a day bus trip to the zoo. Now my youngest has applied for a trip to Hawaii, which just doesn't seem right considering I've never been there.