What glue for an outdoor cutting board?

[Richard/RMW]

Almost ready to make the 4" thick 24" by 28" butcher's block for my grill cooking cart. Amusingly, I have some 8/4 & 12/4 hard maple that I bought over 30 years ago in Nevada then hauled to PA and finally NJ where it's been waiting patiently to find its purpose in the universe. I keep wondering if it wasn't originally from this area, but I digress.

Our area (South Jersy shore) ranges from mid-80's to below freezing, and it's always at least somewhat humid. I'll keep the cart covered but it'll experience the full temp/humidity swings year-round.

I've yet to figure out if I am going to make an end-gain block (2" by 2" by 4" blocks) or just mill everything to 2" by 4" by 24" and glue the faces. Any advice on pros/cons would be appreciated.

Any thoughts on the best adhesive to use to in either scenario?

Lastly, if I take the latter approach, I could run some threaded rod thru and back up the glue mechanically. Is this enough of a benefit to make this approach superior to going the end grain route?

Thanks in advance.

RMW

[TSO_Products]

Hello Richard,
for all the reasons you are concerned about, no adhesive I know of (and have worked with) comes close to RESORCINOL.

Since you will be able to achieve a very good glue joint preparation requiring no gap filling, it is a perfect fit for RESORCINOL which requires close fitting joint preparation and a reasonable amount of clamping pressure.

Moisture will not affect it. The wood will break before the glue joint separates. Very little effect of temperature or humidity in itself on the glue joint. Very thin glue line. Outperforms Epoxy or any other adhesive for this application.

You may still find some under the WELDWOOD brand but I think they have discontinued selling this under their private label. This is the adhesive used in manufacturing loadbearing beams used in construction.

Look for CASCOPOHEN G-1131 for liquid resin and separate powder catalyst.


Hans
Available from: https://www.wicksaircraft.com/shop/cascophen-kit/

[Birdhunter]

Many years ago, I built a bunch of outdoor Ipe benches for my club. I used two part epoxy on some of the tenons and Titebond III on others. I see zero differences between the two. The benches are unfinished and totally exposed to the weather. They are still totally solid.

[jeffinsgf]

If you're going to use it with food, I would not use resorcinol. Might be fine, but it is nasty to work with, and I wouldn't want it around anything I planned to put in my mouth.

I would probably go Titebond 3 or polyurethane (Gorilla Glue).

[Richard/RMW]

CASCOPOHEN looks interesting. I'm not super concerned about it being "food grade" given the use is binding layers of wood & not a surface finish. Thanks for the input, I'll do some more research but it seems to have impressive properties.

Keep it coming. 

RMW

[rvieceli]

Richard do some tests with your maple. Titebond III dries dark. Looks good on Walnut but it’s too dark for me on lighter stuff like cherry or maple.

For finish for the board consider plain old mineral oil. Soak the piece in it. Food safe.

Walmart has the best price I’ve found.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Equate-Mineral-Oil-Lubricant-Laxative-Liquid-for-Constipation-16-fl-Oz/44807472

Ron

[jarbroen]

Why 4” thick?  Out of curiosity.

I recently made a butcher block top for my kitchen island and did a bit of research on which way to orient the grain. I ended up with face grain walnut because I like the look and I’m not chopping on it.
For cutting, chopping, etc, end grain is the toughest followed by edge grain.
I don’t like the look of the little end grain squares, but that’s just me. Plus, that’s a tricky grain to run through a planer.

For the glue I’m in the keep it simple camp. Titebond III is great for outdoor projects. I’ve had it hold up for years and still going strong outside. Easy to work with, as always. If you have tight joints I would avoid Gorilla glue as it’s and expanding adhesive.

So, edge grain and Titebond III is my amateur opinion.

[Richard/RMW]

Why 4” thick?  Out of curiosity.

Totally scientific, overly thought-out "just 'cause"...

I thought the mass would look interesting in juxtaposition to the adjacent concrete surface. I also decided to "band" the lower half with steel, again for appearance.

I'm probably going with Han's suggestion just to try it out.

Thanks for the input.

RMW

[Cheese]

Hey Richard, I would have gone for the resorcinol also…can’t beat the ratings. 

Let us know what you think of the stuff.

[Vondawg]

YES ! Let us know… I know you will report back and looking forward to it…..very nice project thank you for sharing (pics and findings) you always squeeze the most in the most restricted space lol…

[Michael Kellough]

resorcinol is great but it does have a limited shelf life so make sure it’s not too old.

[Richard/RMW]

resorcinol is great but it does have a limited shelf life so make sure it’s not too old.

I noticed that and it's a drawback given I tend to bounce around project-wise and end up with way too many two-thirds full containers of finish etc. I'll get it from somewhere like Aircraft Spruce that likely turns over their inventory pretty frequently but it'll probably only get used on this one project.

RMW

[rvieceli]

Richard suggest you try some on some scraps to see if you like working with it before you commit completely.

ROn

[rvieceli]

@Richard/RMW

Please give us an update on this stuff. I used it about 40 years ago but I can't remember the details  How long it lasts after mixing and the open time once applied, etc.

Ron

[Richard/RMW]

@Richard/RMW

Please give us an update on this stuff. I used it about 40 years ago but I can't remember the details  How long it lasts after mixing and the open time once applied, etc.

Ron

Ron, will do. I haven't ordered it yet, thanks for the reminder.

Should be finishing up the frame this weekend and then pivoting over to milling the maple.

RMW

[Richard/RMW]

On its way, should be here Monday shipping from GA. $42/pint delivered. Product info available here, open time was better than expected:

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/cascophentech.pdf

RMW

[Richard/RMW]

Only ~2 years later, I'm getting ready to glue up this cutting board & finish the grill cart. 

Long story but the Cascophen arrived (2021) already past its use-by date, and they didn't have any more. I got sidetracked, covered the work-in-progress cart, and didn't get back to it until a couple of weeks ago. Last weekend I dug out some 6/4 maple and milled it up.







The TCS-55 did a surprising great job ripping down 1-1/4" stock, taking 2 passes.





I bored thru holes for 3/8" SS all-thread and Shapered some bungs.







Now it's time to glue it up and the re-ordered Cascophen hasn't arrived. Anyone have strong feelings about using Titebond 3 or something else available locally, or should I just be patient & wait for the Cascophen to arrive?

I hadn't originally planned to add the all-thread, so I'm trying to decide if that will provide enough extra pressure to prevent everything from separating over time. This will live on the deck winter/summer and be covered. Appreciate any thoughts/suggestions.

Thanks,

RMW

[LazyGretlWoodWorks]

CASCOPOHEN looks interesting. I'm not super concerned about it being "food grade" given the use is binding layers of wood & not a surface finish.

You should be; contact is contact. It's **probably** fine once fully cured, however if you do any real cutting on it, you're introducing synthetic polymers into your food. That's not a maybe, that's a for-real, gonna-happen thing. Again ** probably ** fine according to some chart that says it's also ok to have x% of rat feces in your food and still be "safe and healthy".

I'd go with titebond 3, screw the color concerns, and know you're 100% food safe.

Stay away from synthetic polymers. That's not me as a hippie talking, that's me as a guy whose first career was using some nasty ass chemicals fashioning race cars together, including body panels made from 100% synthetic polymers.

I really can't caution you enough. "Interesting" doesn't mean do it.

"Your Scientists Were So Preoccupied With Whether Or Not They Could, They Didn’t Stop To Think If They Should." -- Dr. Ian Malcom

[rvieceli]

Richard that looks nice. Titebond III would be the logical choice but try a joint on some scrap to see if you like it.

I find that T III dries dark, I’ll use it on Walnut but prefer T original or T II on lighter woods. T III usually leaves a dark glue line I can see the others blend in more. YMMV test it first.

If you keep applying mineral oil, it usually doesn’t give the wood a chance to shrink too much. But you might want to make the plugs removable so you could tighten the rods.

Don’t forget about the bottom of it either for oil. When you cover it I’d leave some space to let it breathe.

Ron

[Packard]

Titebond III is chosen by woodworkers for cutting boards for many reasons. The main reasons are that it has been proven to be waterproof as well as FDA approved for indirect food contact. These two key features make it perfect for cutting boards and it has become the number one choice for woodworkers.

I don’t know who Tyler Brown is and if he is a reliable authority.  I would probably check directly with Titebond.

I also am not sure what “indirect food contact” really means.

https://www.tylerbrownwoodworking.com/articles/best-glue-for-cutting-boards#

[Richard/RMW]

Doing some reading and it appears TB2 might work fine also. Apparently TB3 is "waterproof" i.e. soak it and it doesn't fail while TB2 is only "water resistant" whatever that means I've yet to figure out.

All I'm looking for is not having joint seperate due to exposure to humidity and temperature variation.

Thanks.

RMW

[Richard/RMW]

Richard that looks nice. Titebond III would be the logical choice but try a joint on some scrap to see if you like it.

I find that T III dries dark, I’ll use it on Walnut but prefer T original or T II on lighter woods. T III usually leaves a dark glue line I can see the others blend in more. YMMV test it first.

If you keep applying mineral oil, it usually doesn’t give the wood a chance to shrink too much. But you might want to make the plugs removable so you could tighten the rods.

Don’t forget about the bottom of it either for oil. When you cover it I’d leave some space to let it breathe.

Ron

Thanks Ron for emphasizing the mineral oil, maintenance is a great point for preventing shrinkage. This material spent ~10-ish years acclimitizing (being ignored in our crawl space) which may make a real difference in this situation.

I was considering leaving off the rear plugs for that purpose, you just convinced me.

RMW

[luvmytoolz]

I would definitely go TB3 over TB2 for this if it's going to get a fair bit of exposure. Not worth the risk for the tiny bit saved.

[Oldwood]

I am not a fan of the all thread rod. I have seen a few tops done with them that bow badly.  The wood will expand, and the rods restrain the expansion and the top bows up or down.

I don't think they are needed, if you get a good glue joint, and you will have a better chance of the top staying flat.

When testing new glue, I drive a chisel into the glue joint and attempt to split the wood on the joint. If it splits on the joint even if it pulls some wood, I call it a failure and try something new.

I used a lot of T2 for exterior doors, and it stood up well, but the doors were never subjected to any great amount of water.   

[Richard/RMW]

I am not a fan of the all thread rod. I have seen a few tops done with them that bow badly.  The wood will expand, and the rods restrain the expansion and the top bows up or down.

I don't think they are needed, if you get a good glue joint, and you will have a better chance of the top staying flat.

Hadn't considered that aspect, thanks.

RMW

[Oldwood]

There have been some failures of TB3 when exposed to a moderate amount of heat. I don't know how much heat the end of the block close to the grill will see, but it may be worth considering. David Sochar mentions that in the 3rd post in this thread. He had a lot of problems with doors failing when finished with a dark finish and southern exposure.

https://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/aw.pl?read=812140

With the PVA glues, I have never been able to starve the joint by over clamping, but with some of the resin glues it is possible to do that, so a test glue up would be wise to confirm your process.

[Packard]

TB3 has a longer open time than TB2, and for a glue-up with this many pieces, that would be an advantage.

[GoingMyWay]

WoodWorkers Guild of America had Bob Behnke, the Technical Service Manager from Titebond glue on a livestream a few days ago.  I learned so much in the approximately 1 hour video. 

Around 11:07, Bob discusses exterior projects and the differences between Titebond 2 and 3.  Interesting that the primary difference seems to be that Titebond 3 will pass a boiling water soak.

[Richard/RMW]

Great info, I'm learning a lot here.

Going further down the rabbit hole, seems like the waterproof difference between 2 and 3 aren't an issue for this use. I don't think heat will be either, the cart will sit beside the kamado but not close enough to experience much heat. It's also largely protected from the sun's heat due to the trees. Only rarely does the wood deck get so hot that I can't spend all day on it barefoot. Mostly the temperature variation will be to the downside, 80's summer into 20's wintertime.

The other section of the cart gets a concrete top and this'll host the little pizza oven when in use. The butcher block is a prep area, mostly with an intermediate surface i.e. I don't plan on carving meat directly on it.

Lastly I'll have a grill cover made with ventilation.

Seems like my concern about the glue joints seperating may be overblown, providing I get a good glue up. I'm starting to lean toward TB2 to avoid the dark glue lines and glueing up in sections of 3-4 boards at a time. I'll probably add the all thread but not crank the down and leave the rear open so I can adjust if ever needed.

Thanks for helping me think this thru.

RMW

[Richard/RMW]

I should have paid (at least some) attention to the specifics on Cascophen. Short story, it's incredibly hard but deep reddish-brown in color. Not a great option for maple...



The dried excess glue has the look & feel of Bakelite, out of curiosity I'll see how it stands up to a hammer test. Defaulted to TB2 & glued up the boards in 2 sections then joined them together, over 2 days.





The rods were just used for alignment, although I'll probably install the all-thread and leave it loose in the beginning. There is a slight twist ~1/4" overall, I could have been a little more careful.



Now to cobble together a surfacing jig and flatten it up.

A bit melancholy, the soundtrack for the weekend was the Jolly Mon, lots of memories dredged up going back 40+ years.

[EDIT] Sunday morning's sky from the shop:



RMW