Author Topic: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door  (Read 2320 times)

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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« on: March 13, 2019, 11:45 PM »
I needed a side entrance door for a garage that will be demoed in the spring. I checked at Menards and any cheap slab door was a $100 and with a jamb was around $120+. Obviously HD and Lowe's are more.  [crying]

I decided to visit the local recycle center and just purchase anything in the $20-$30 range and make it work. I spotted a full view exterior door in pretty good condition. On further examination, it appeared to be constructed of Doug fir with thermo-pane glass.

GOOD ENOUGH      I paid the $30 and took my new door home.

After some sanding and dismantling I came across this stamped into the top edge of the door.





While the name may be difficult to make out, the style number 6002 immediately registered with me as I've already installed 3 Simpson full view exterior doors on the house. All were marked style 6002.  [cool] 

So then it kicked in,  I had just purchased a $700 Low E door for $30.

https://www.simpsondoor.com/find-a-door/

Here's a shot of it in the shop.



After some sanding, I noticed that some of the Doug fir was delaminating from the lower portion of the door. Notice that in image 5 the machinists scale can be pushed to the outside edge of the stile. Complete delamination of the bottom of the stile.





The lower portion of Simpson doors are interesting because they use a composite material in the bottom of the door to prevent rot from forming. So the real issue I faced is how to re-adhere the veneer to the composite material because the composite was going no where in a hurry.








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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2019, 12:12 AM »
I've had great results using West Systems Epoxy and having some left-overs I decided to give it a try. 



By using a small needled syringe, I was able to inject the epoxy completely underneath the delaminated area. Any squeeze out was then redistributed with a 3M plastic scraper.



Notice how the entire delaminated area has been saturated with epoxy.



A little wax paper, a very flat piece of wood and some Bessey clamps complete the operation. Let's check it out in the morning.  [smile]






Offline travisj

  • Posts: 364
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 12:28 AM »
Nice find! 

I had lunch with a friend a week ago and we were talking about the local reuse centers (the one in New Brighton specifically).  His father was a developer of high end homes and he followed suit for awhile.  He has since moved more towards engineering.  He said that if I ever need anything, to start at the reuse center.  The contractors in Minnesota (and maybe elsewhere as well) get a full value deduction for any building materials they donate.  I know my father had picked up some steel entry doors there in the past as well as some brand new double hung windows that I put into an icehouse (ice fishing for those in warmer climates).  If I recall the windows were less than $40 each and were still in the factory shrink wrap.


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Offline Pnw painter

  • Posts: 212
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2019, 12:38 AM »
Thanks for sharing. Gives my some good ideas should I ever come across this issue.

I’m curious if the epoxy will bond to the wax paper or if it’ll come off cleanly?


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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2019, 12:43 AM »
I’m curious if the epoxy will bond to the wax paper or if it’ll come off cleanly?

I was too but that's why they're called experiments.  [smile]

Check in tomorrow morning.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 12:54 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2019, 12:53 AM »
Nice find! 

He said that if I ever need anything, to start at the reuse center. 

Ya I'd never consider myself to to be an "antiquer" because time is money and I'm running out of time.  [smile]  However the few times I went to the reuseit centers, I did score some pretty nice stuff. The time before the Simpson door episode, I purchased 2 new, in the box Velux skylights. Brand new 30" x 48" roof windows for $50 each. Needless to say, they will be installed in the new garage.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 10:23 AM »
I noticed that the stile on the RH side wasn't delaminating but it had several splits on the bottom. I took some of the extra epoxy and with the 3M plastic scraper, I spread a thin layer of epoxy over everything.



So here's the stile that was clamped with the wax paper. The wax paper just pulled right off and you can see how the epoxy soaked into the Doug fir. Also note the build-up of epoxy along the bottom of the stile.





Actually I was pleasantly surprised to see the wax paper release from the epoxy.  [big grin] I was prepared to sand the wax paper off if necessary.

Here's the LH stile after some sanding. Also note how nice and tight the Doug fir veneer is on the stile.

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

And here's the RH stile with a little more sanding needed on the bottom.  Next stop, is enlarging the existing hinge mortises with an MFS.

[ Specified attachment is not available ]

« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 11:22 AM by Cheese »

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1806
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 11:05 AM »
It's looking good!  Nice save.
-Raj

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2019, 12:21 PM »
I noticed that the stile on the RH side wasn't delaminating but it had several splits on the bottom. I took some of the extra epoxy and with the 3M plastic scraper, I spread a thin layer of epoxy over everything.

(Attachment Link)

So here's the stile that was clamped with the wax paper. The wax paper just pulled right off and you can see how the epoxy soaked into the Doug fir. Also note the build-up of epoxy along the bottom of the stile.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Actually I was pleasantly surprised to see the wax paper release from the epoxy.  [big grin] I was prepared to sand the wax paper off if necessary.

Here's the LH stile after some sanding. Also note how nice and tight the Doug fir veneer is on the stile.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

And here's the RH stile with a little more sanding needed on the bottom.  Next stop, is enlarging the existing hinge mortises with an MFS.

(Attachment Link)
  Now add 6 coats of Epifane Marine Varnish and you're set for a good couple of years.  3 coats of fast drying Rapid Clear and 3 coats of High Gloss..... [wink]
 Or are you painting it to match the Garage?.... [popcorn]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2019, 12:57 PM »
Now add 6 coats of Epifane Marine Varnish and you're set for a good couple of years.  3 coats of fast drying Rapid Clear and 3 coats of High Gloss..... [wink]
 Or are you painting it to match the Garage?.... [popcorn]

You bring up an interesting point. The other Simpson wood doors on the house were SW oil-based primed, 2 coats of SW latex and then 2 coats of GF clear water base poly. However, all are protected with full view aluminum storm doors.

This door will not have the same protection so I'm open to suggestions. I'd also like to paint it black so I wonder how that will muck up the equation?

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 09:30 AM »
Now add 6 coats of Epifane Marine Varnish and you're set for a good couple of years.  3 coats of fast drying Rapid Clear and 3 coats of High Gloss..... [wink]
 Or are you painting it to match the Garage?.... [popcorn]

You bring up an interesting point. The other Simpson wood doors on the house were SW oil-based primed, 2 coats of SW latex and then 2 coats of GF clear water base poly. However, all are protected with full view aluminum storm doors.

This door will not have the same protection so I'm open to suggestions. I'd also like to paint it black so I wonder how that will muck up the equation?
  How much Sun will it get?  Any overhang of gutters or roof adding a tiny amount of sun blockage during the day?  I'm sure someone will chime in with current Paint quality experience for a really dark exterior door.
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4304
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 09:36 AM »
On one hand the black pigment will better limit degradation of the paint medium than any other color. On the other hand it will absorb more insolation and get hotter than any other color. Wood doesn’t expand very much with heat but the composite material in the bottom of the stiles might.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2280
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 09:40 AM »
On one hand the black pigment will better limit degradation of the paint medium than any other color. On the other hand it will absorb more insolation and get hotter than any other color. Wood doesn’t expand very much with heat but the composite material in the bottom of the stiles might.
  So what we have here is the Roseanne Roseannadanna Paradox.... [wink]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2019, 11:23 AM »
At this point, all flat door surfaces have been sanded, the veneer delamination problem has been solved and the door has been drilled for a dead-bolt. The last issue other than some hand sanding is to deepen and enlarge the hinge mortises that already exist. This will change the door from a LH inswing to a RH inswing door.

My preferred method was to use the MFS, however the steel angle brackets that come with it are too short for me to get some good clamping angles on the door so I decided to make longer angle brackets which gives me more room for clamping.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-jigs-tool-enhancements/routingmilling-aluminum-angle-for-the-mfs-using-an-mfs-a-1010/msg583269/?topicseen#msg583269

The existing mortise that I previously filled with glued-in oak dowels.




The MFS opening has been properly set and the MFS is placed roughly into position.






The combination of router bit and guide plate give me a 2 mm offset.  The easiest method for me to center the MFS on the existing mortise is to use a 2 mm gauge block.




Clamping on the LH side & RH side of the door.






A photo of the Festool router bit and the new mortise it produces.






It may be tough to see but this is a tight line-to-line fit of the hinge inside the mortise. Repeat this operation 2 more times and I'm done.

Or am I...




It's a perfect fit for the hinge...absolutely perfect, however where will the paint go?  [doh]

A coat of primer and 2 top-coats will probably be about 7-9 mils thick on each side of the hinge. So if I open up the MFS from 106 mm to 106.5 mm that should be the ticket.






To properly space the MFS on the opening I'll now use a 2.5 mm gauge block.
And this is the result, the hinge with .25 mm of clearance on both sides.


Offline Jiggy Joiner

  • Posts: 812
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2019, 01:55 PM »
Hi Cheese, that was a nice catch, and brought back memories.  A good while back I used to make and install very similar doors to yours, and we also used composite on the bottom rail to combat moisture soaking in.

We made engineered type doors like yours, with oak veneer or whatever finish the customer wanted.
We did sliding doors and bi folding doors too.

Looks like you’ve sorted the de lamination with the epoxy but, just thought I’d mention, we’ve bonded wood veneers and PVC to timber, and plastics and composites with good success, using Titebond Melamine glue.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2019, 03:21 PM »
The final steps before I mask, prime & paint.

Because I changed the handing of the door from LH to RH, I needed to add the hinge stops and drill for the hinge fasteners.






Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2019, 10:31 PM »
So after a 4 month hiatus because there were bigger fish to fry...we're back at it. It's November, in the 20's and getting very close to the closing of the open window for outside maintenance. This door was originally a left handed door, however I needed a right handed door so I decided that I could right that wrong given a little bit of fine tuning and the $30 price tag for a $700 door.

On any full glass wooden door the trim profiles are different between the inside surface and the outside surface. On the outside surface which is exposed to weather, the profiles are milled into the rail and stiles while on the inside the profiles are pieces of trim affixed to the door to allow for the installation and/or replacement of the glass. When you change the handing, the inside surfaces are now the outside surfaces which presents a problem.

This is an example of the inside profile which overlaps the other inside profile. If exposed to the outside, it will catch moisture and eventually rot.




A little epoxy and some painters tape to keep it off of the glass works well.




Try to sculpt the epoxy as much as possible so that you have less to sand off.




When cured, sand the epoxy down and you will now have a weatherproof interface.




« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:48 PM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2019, 11:22 PM »
Another interesting aspect of this project is that I needed to mask the door for painting. However, I need to mask not just this door, but for another project, also about 20 other windows that are 24" x 72". That's a lot of masking.

I decided that in order to expedite matters, I needed a masking aid. I needed something that would allow me to easily mask both Simpson doors and Marvin windows. A sort of one size fits all approach.

I decided on this solution. A piece of aluminum flat with elongated holes attached to 18 mm ply. The slots in the aluminum would allow for height adjustment while the ply has enough mass to simply sit on the edge of the door/window and support the weight of the aluminum flat.

I initially decided upon a 1 mm thick aluminum flat but had to settle on a piece of 1/16" thick aluminum instead.

This thing has been a Godsend. Simple to use and incredibly fast. I fabricated 2 sizes, a 12" and a 36" masking aid.

The idea is to bring the paint down to the glass for both the inside (condensation) and the outside (rain). That way the wood and glass interface is protected from moisture.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 11:52 PM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2019, 12:43 PM »
So here are some photos of the masking aid.

A 1/16" thick aluminum flat with elongated holes for adjustment and some 3/4" ply to rest on the stile/rail and hold the aluminum. One's 12" long and the other is 36".






Place the 36" masking aid on the door/window and move it into position.






Align the masking tape with the 36" aid and move the tape & the aid along the door until you reach the end. You'll end up with this.






Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2019, 12:49 PM »
Place the 12" masking aid in place and using it as a guide, lightly cut through the masking tape and remove the extra waste.






What you're left with is a uniform distance around the entire glass for the paint to adhere to. Nice sharp, uniform lines. This door took all of 5-6 minutes to mask. Make sure you use a rubber Bondo applicator to apply pressure to the masking tape to ensure crisp lines.




Offline glenn storey

  • Posts: 25
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2019, 01:03 PM »
I'm not sure why you are masking the glass. Paint it, not worrying too much about accuracy, and then use a razor scraper to remove the paint from the glass. It's about 1000 times faster, and seals the glass to the wood as well, which is recommended by pretty much every door manufacturer.

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 300
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2019, 08:17 AM »
I like your methods Cheese, having scraped countless windows and doors throughout the years that wouldn’t be my choice...I like your “paint and pull the tape”...Done!  over possible scratching of glass and/or loss of the seal of paint. After Toms comment, in another thread, on wetting  the edge of frog tape (maybe in this case with just a wet sponge)
That might seal even tighter....nice work as always and great save(and savings)
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6601
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2019, 10:20 AM »
I'm not sure why you are masking the glass. Paint it, not worrying too much about accuracy, and then use a razor scraper to remove the paint from the glass. It's about 1000 times faster, and seals the glass to the wood as well, which is recommended by pretty much every door manufacturer.

Well, having refinished windows in the past the way you described and receiving mixed results, I decided to actually read the instructions this time.  [big grin]

This is from the Marvin Window handbook. Skip down to the 3rd paragraph that starts with "Before finishing..."



By using this method you avoid breaking the glass to paint interface and as @Vondawg noted, you also avoid scratching the glass.

Offline glenn storey

  • Posts: 25
Re: Refinishing a Simpson Full View Door
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2019, 10:39 AM »
I've probably painted 1000 doors and windows and have yet to scratch the glass.