Author Topic: Hello FOG  (Read 3357 times)

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Offline Randel

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Hello FOG
« on: October 09, 2015, 01:01 AM »
SO, I have been skimming through (Reading Mostly All) this forum for the last two months as I've been debating selling my wood shop I inherited from my wifes grandfather after he passed. The last 4 years its been located in an unfinished third unit of my triplex. This month we are refinancing to pull some money out to refinish the last unit. PROBLEM! This area my shop. So I have the chose to hold on to the shop and stuff it into my 1 car garage. Witch would leave me no room to use any of it. Or the option I'm leaning to witch is to sell all my big tools and replace them with Festools (I've been drulling over these tools for years).

Looking for any advise with the plan, Selling Ridged table saw, Delta band saw with 6" extension, vacuum system, radial arm saw, joiner, drill press, two large work benches, two routers, bisquet joiner, circular saw and acessories. Hioping to get about $4000 for it all. Would Replace with MFTC (already bought the plans and having my brother make cut sheets so I can have a buddy CNC most the parts for me. (making 2)) TS55R w/accessory kit, OF1400 w/accessory kit, Holey 55" track, CT48 w/dust tornado, Multi router guide, carvex w/accessory kit, Parf Dogs & Parallel Guides.

So comments on what I should and shouldn't purchace, what I should or shouldn't sell and does $4000 sound high or low.


Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7652
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 02:36 AM »
 [welcome]

I can't respond on $'s for what you currently have, but if you're bandsaw isn't an absolute monster .. I'd keep it.

You'll get mixed opinions on specific tools. I have a large cross section of Festools and no real regrets on any.


Offline Randel

  • Posts: 13
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 02:55 AM »
Hey Kev, so the band saw is a full size delta about 2' x 3' foot print. I'm a tradsman building a company and at this moment in life I have 2 kids and will be building small amounts of furniture for my self and small hoddy projects. What is a full sive band saw going to provide that a carvex couldn't do?

The only thing I can think of is ripping down large timber and If i really want to do that it will make more sence to invest in a milling machine with a couple buddys who have a tree service and landscaping companys.

thoughts?

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 03:51 AM »
Hi Randel

I did almost exactly what you are proposing about4-5 years ago. I had a big spindle moulder, large table saw, radial arm saw, morticing machine and two home made router tables and loads more that is best forgotten. I sold all my machines and a few hand tools for about $5,000. I invested all of that in the new kit and probably added another $3,000 since then.

I spent 3 months doing market research and discovered that I could adopt a "system" approach with Festool - many of the accessories can be used with other tools in the range. I would not longer need a host of adapters to fit dust collectors to different tools. The key thing, so I thought, was that it would take up less room and allow me to expand the number of types of tool without needing more room.

All this came to pass but the real unforeseen benefit, and one that I cannot emphasise enough, is that my woodwork has improved no end. I can now work faster, with less fuss, to far greater accuracy and I can breath more easily. The net result is that I enjoy my work much, much more. The flash to bang time when I create a new drawing to the piece of woodwork getting polished up and finished is half that it took before.

The key tools for me are:

   - CT 26 (it could be 36 or 48 all have same power) which is the unsung hero always doing its stuff perfectly. I have both 27 mm and 36 mm hoses.

   - TS 55 with rails, cutting sheet goods is very easy and, on a fine day, I can do it outside after taking stuff off the truck and get the pieces into easy to manage sizes before they come into the workshop. I have a simple cutting station inside which is just a sheet of MDF with a few 20 mm holes put in the right places and then I use the Parf Dogs for perfectly square cuts.

    - Domino 500 or 700, an absolute game changer that has transformed my furniture and cabinet construction.

    - Kapex 120, a brilliant saw that will produce perfect cuts at any angle. It is the another game changer and was my very first Festool purchase.

    - Any Festool router that you feel comfortable with - they are all brilliant. I use my OF2200 in my CMS-OF. I appreciate that this is NAINA but it is a match made in Heaven.

    - PDC 18 and CSX, both are excellent and the CXS is perfect for 80% of jobs. I am still waiting for a good Festool impact driver.

    - CMS-OF and CMS-TS.

The combination of the CMS-TS and the TS 55 with rails has more than replaced my table saw.

There are a number of other Festool tools which I use regularly but I just wanted to give you the top end of my list.

The non Festool tools include Parf Dogs (of course), Veritas planes, Jet planer/thicknesser, Jet spindle sander, a good range of Bessey clamps, a bandsaw and an Hitachi impact driver. Safety kit is all from 3M, Versaflo and also XP Alert ear protection.

Peter

Offline Kev

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2015, 04:15 AM »
Hey Kev, so the band saw is a full size delta about 2' x 3' foot print. I'm a tradsman building a company and at this moment in life I have 2 kids and will be building small amounts of furniture for my self and small hoddy projects. What is a full sive band saw going to provide that a carvex couldn't do?

The only thing I can think of is ripping down large timber and If i really want to do that it will make more sence to invest in a milling machine with a couple buddys who have a tree service and landscaping companys.

thoughts?

If you have access to gear to size timber you should be fine. I'm in the process of acquiring a bandsaw with similar initiatives ahead of me .. hence my thinking.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2015, 04:18 AM »
Randel,  [welcome]to the Slippery Slope

Hey Kev, so the band saw is a full size delta about 2' x 3' foot print. I'm a tradsman building a company and at this moment in life I have 2 kids and will be building small amounts of furniture for my self and small hoddy projects. What is a full sive band saw going to provide that a carvex couldn't do?

The only thing I can think of is ripping down large timber and If i really want to do that it will make more sence to invest in a milling machine with a couple buddys who have a tree service and landscaping companys.

thoughts?

If you have two kids and are building a company and the woodworking is a hobby,  I don't think making the total changeover is the best route to go. I wood not get rid of everything on your list all at once. 

I agree with Kev on the bandsaw.  Sure, the carvex would be great.  I have a couple of jigsaws.  The Festoy earlier model is one of them.  Once i got a BS, I seldom use the jigsaws anymore.  There are projects that can only be handled with a jigsaw, so Maybe get the carvex, but keep the BS until you have chance to work with both. I have found I would not be without the BS even tho I have the jigsaws.  I would not be without a jigsaw, even tho i have the bandsaw.

I had a RAS for years until going the table saw/SCMS route.  I got rid of the RAS. Then I got hit with the Festo virus and got rid of the table saw.  I am finally decided to get rid of the SCMS.  The table saw, I don't miss so much, but I am sorry to have gotten rid of the RAS. 

Maybe you could get rid of one of the large work benches.  Purchase an MFT.  build a smaller, but very solid workbench and then get rid of the other large work bench.  If you try to go only with an MFT, and you do any hand planing, you can get away with the MFT for small projects, it can be braced for those tasks.  If you get into heavy planing, you would want a more stable bench.  Once you get an MFT along with other Festoys, you will probably wonder how you ever got along without an MFT.  Instead of building another bench, you could build a solid base with drawers or shelves to hold the MFT.  You might then decide you don't need another bench.  If you are like me, you need another bench.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2015, 06:48 AM »
I did pretty much the same thing as you. I now have a almost all Festool shop. The only things I would reconsider getting rid of is, the band saw, jointer, and thickness planer. Other then those items I don't see you having any problems doing just about any type of wood working ,remodeling , furniture building etc

Offline Untidy Shop

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2015, 07:04 AM »
I agree with Jobworth. For my needs the planner and Thicknesser are still integral to the Untidy Shop. I still use my drill press, but increasingly the roles of the table saw are being taken over by the track saw. I would like a band saw but can live without it, adapting projects accordingly. I use a mix of recycled and new timber supplies.
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Offline Holmz

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2015, 07:09 AM »
Where are you at in the US and which model/brand biscuit joiner?

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 09:07 AM »
It sounds like the bandsaw is a Delta 14" with a 6" riser block and this would be a keeper for me.  This will enable you to resaw lumber for bookmatching, making veneer, and other tasks that no jig saw on earth will ever do.  For furniture making, the jointer would be a keeper if it was 8" or larger.  I have never found the track saw to be versatile enough to replace a table saw but YMMV.  I would probably get rid of the rest for sure.

As far as price goes, the brands listed are not high end and I think $4K is just wishful thinking in that segment of the market.  The most valuable of the lot appears to be the bandsaw and if in good condition, the true market value is in the $500 range.  A quick look at on-line sites for similar items will give you an idea of what things are bringing.  With that information, you can decide if the various items are worth more to you than what you can get by selling them. 

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8736
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2015, 11:26 AM »
FWIW
I'd be lost without my bandsaw, just used it yesterday to cut 3" and 4" diameter pvc DWV piping. Then I had to shave off a 1/8" thickness on many short 2" wooden shims. There's not another tool in the shop that will do both of those tasks.

I have no idea what your bandsaw is worth, could be $50...could be $500, but a Carvex with accessory kit will run $560 to $720 and you still won't have the flexibility of a bandsaw. Unless the bandsaw is a real POS (in which case you'll get nothing for it anyways), I'd keep it.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2015, 12:43 PM »
FWIW
I'd be lost without my bandsaw, just used it yesterday to cut 3" and 4" diameter pvc DWV piping. Then I had to shave off a 1/8" thickness on many short 2" wooden shims. There's not another tool in the shop that will do both of those tasks.

I have no idea what your bandsaw is worth, could be $50...could be $500, but a Carvex with accessory kit will run $560 to $720 and you still won't have the flexibility of a bandsaw. Unless the bandsaw is a real POS (in which case you'll get nothing for it anyways), I'd keep it.

I have had sort of the same type of experiences.  Another responder mentioned resaw for veneers.  Even without using a jigsaw, I have cut circles out of the center of a piece of wood.  The kerf is so thin that I was able to squeeze a little glue into the cut, pinch together and the cut could not be seen on the finished project.  I don't think that could be done with a jig saw.
As Cheese, I would not be without my bandsaw.  And it was a bottom of the liner.

Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Randel

  • Posts: 13
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2015, 02:08 PM »
Where are you at in the US and which model/brand biscuit joiner?
In the Seattle / Tacoma area. Its a porter cable w/junk ton of biscuits. I plan on picking up the dom 700 with in a year with the aftermarket bit extension so i can use the 500 dits as well.

Offline Randel

  • Posts: 13
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2015, 02:37 PM »
Ok, I feel I need to give alittle more context. So I live in the seatlle area so there is the case of some of the festool line being harder to get (NAINA)-luckly I have family in germany where my mom grew up and she goes yearly so I now know what I may be asking her to do for me on those trips. Also, i'm only 30 and have 2 kiddo's under 3 years & building a new buisness. So as much as I want a full shop to build furniture I have come to the realization that it will be a good 10+ years tell I have that kind of time & the shop space just for my shop and not to share with cars or kids stuff. So with that in mind I would like to beable to still build, but understand that in 10 year I will be rebuying the tools at that time I will need to build a full shot.

So Tools I have/plan on keeping

Metal chop saw
Scroll Saw
trim router (eventually replace with the festool 1010)
full M18 Milwaukee Set (still interested in hearing more about the drills festool produces and the benifits)
Planner 

Tools getting ride of -
Band saw is an older delta that has a 6" extention to do just over 12" boards (Machine is like brand new)
Jointer is a craftsman 4" (Older)
Radial Arm Saw is also a craftman
Routers - 1/Skil plunge router 2/new in box portercable I purchased to put in a table
craftsman stand drill press (which I dont know if I want to get rid of yet)

So hopefully that gives some context / help to my desision and plans. Still would love to hear comments

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2015, 03:13 PM »
Hi Randel

You invited further comment...

As I may have said before, everyone will have a different opinion but to get rid of the bandsaw may be a bit rash. My CMS-TS (table saw) and my TS 55 with rails can cur 50-55 mm deep and so when I need to break down big lumps of timber I always turn to my table saw. The work flow is (usually) as follows.

I true up the piece of wood on the jointer by getting two adjacent edges flat and at right angles. I then thickness it to achieve a block which is square and with flat sides. I then take it to the bandsaw to slice off the piece that I need. This then gets put back intro the thicknesser to end up with the final dimensions required. The other part of the big lump is itself put back into the thicknesser to have it square again. More pieces can be taken from the block until done.

My very cheap and cheerful bandsaw (probably best described as a well made hobby machine) can cut 200 mm slithers at 6 mm thickness all day long if required. I frequently take 200 mm x 100 mm stock and use the process above to produce planed 180 mm x 25 mm, or 50 mm x 50 mm.

I accept that some people abandon the bandsaw because they have difficulty keeping it running true.

Peter

Offline Randel

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2015, 03:34 PM »
Thanks Peter,

I've watchs some of your videos and looks like you have a great shop! I do see that the big reason to keep the band saw would be to cut my own lumber to the size I want and this is where in the next 10 year I believe most projects would be with purchased lumber already to size. Slight caviot, the person interested in purchasing the band saw is a friend, so I would still have access if needed just would be able to save space and have more $$ for new festools. Actually most of the tools I want to get rid of other men in my church community that want to build their own shops since they are older and soon retiring. So even though I may not own the tools I should have access to many of them when needed.

Also, with a new friendship with a buddy who falls trees for a living for his own company I think I would like to invest in larger planers, joiners and a tow behind milling machine so he could mill the lumber on his job sites. But that will be in 2-3 years so I can purchase another home with either a shop already or the space to build one.

Offline Peter Parfitt

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2015, 03:41 PM »
Hi Randel

That is a very powerful group of friends and what a great community spirit. All you need now, from what you said, is a nice little Wood Mizer !

Good luck.

Peter

Offline teocaf

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2015, 05:34 PM »
All you need now, from what you said, is a nice little Wood Mizer !
Good luck.
Peter

Yeah, good luck indeed!  I know that Peter is simply trying to be encouraging but I'm of the opinion that something like a Wood Mizer is the last thing you need.

Sure, on paper it sounds great--who would not want to say:  hey look at that armoire I made myself, all the way from cutting down the tree, seasoning the wood, hand cut dovetails, blended my own finish, the whole nine yards...--a very romantic notion indeed.

In practice, you need a lot of space to operate it, away from neighbors, it's not exactly cheap, you're going to need extra helping hands all the time. In addition to operating costs of the machine, you need lots of space and TIME to get all your wood seasoned, whether you're air drying or kiln drying, you deal with a lot of heavy lifting, lots and lots of castoffs.  Hope that after all that and more, you'll have the energy and inclination to build something.  You'll need to process quite a bit of wood to get some nice select pieces and to cover your costs to get them to that point.

It's certainly not impossible, many have done it, but you have to really want to play sawyer.  You can try to do a few small logs and slabs with equipment you already have or have access to and see if it's for you.  All of a sudden, going to a quality wood supplier and picking up some nicely seasoned cut lumber (albeit for a price), and get going right away with building that armoire--will start to look pretty good.

Offline rst

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2015, 07:37 PM »
My two cents...I'd keep the drill press and bandsaw.  I use both of mine constantly.  I have a jigsaw that I have not used in 20 years (hoarders have nothing on me), I'd sell that too.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3763
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2015, 09:01 PM »
I have had my own biz for over 60 years now. When i first got interested in building up my shop space, I had gotten a few logs from a friend whose trees i had taken down.  I had the trucks and equipment.  He had the trees and a good supply of suds (for after the work was done).  We hauled the trees to the mill and had them sawed into lumber.  From there, the work really started.  I stacked and stickered my pile.  He stacked and stickered his pile. It was a lot of work, especially after spending all day piling bricks/blocks/or stone into organized piles that looked like something useful that i could get paid for doing.

I still, some 30 years later, have a few of those boards out in my barn. By the time i got half way thru that pile, i had decided it was more fun going to mills and buying rough lumber that had already been air dried or kiln dried.  those trips were far more fun.  The trees i took down, i got paid for the take downs and hauling to mill or selling for fire wood.  there was almost always an enjoyable adventure involved and i found i could spend my spare time making things instead of stacking and stickering and stacking and stickering and .............

I now buy my lumber at a company that sells rough cut hardwoods locally.  There are a few good stories involved there as well.  I do use my bandsaw to cut pieces rescued from the firewood pile.  Those require very little extra time consuming effort to cut into usable wood for small projects.

Oh, and BTW, you say you have couple of kids under 3. AND you expect your garage will be free of kids toys in about 10 years.  Hey, man, i have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell to you.  [poke] :) ;D ;D ;D
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8736
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2015, 11:31 PM »
Hey, man, i have a bridge in Brooklyn I would like to sell to you.  [poke] :) ;D ;D ;D
Tinker

That's hilarious...

@Randel
I'm not wanting to rain on your parade...but as @Tinker & @teocaf & @Peter Parfitt & @Steve Rowe & @Kev have already said, it would be advisible to keep the bandsaw. Especially as you describe the band saw as (Delta machine is like brand new), wow that's a no-brainer for me. The radial arm saw I get because it takes up a lot of real estate, but the band saw takes up less than 3 square of floor space, that's about an area that a bench vise would fit in.

Ultimately, it's your decision, but to trade in a good band saw, and then having to pay more for a jig saw, that can not perform the same operations as a band saw, would be ludicrous. To each their own...

Offline Randel

  • Posts: 13
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2015, 12:08 AM »
@Tinker, Thanks for calling me out on reality! To Funny.

@Cheese, I haven't done my reasearch on cost and time and from what you just informed me on doesn't sound like something I will every find enjoyable! I'll stick with the accasional Burly Hunt and go to a local yard for the rest. Thanks for some clarity their.

@rst, @Peter Parfitt, @Steve Rowe, @teocaf, & @Kev
All that have commented, Thanks for weighing in, sounds like I should keep the Band Saw and Drill Press for now. Glad you guys pushed in Im still new at this and want to make a little mistakes in building my shop and tool collection as possible.

I don't want to buy anything I dont absolutly need while $$ will be stretched.

So on to the next question then, what are some great projects to start first (Projects you wish you would have waited on tell you had more experience and ones that are great to run the passes so to speak in learning the new tools I'll have and the ones I currently own?

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2015, 12:35 AM »
I was hoping you were closer to where I could get that bandsaw to my daughter's...
Festool is not the only good German tool manufacturer, so loading up the relatives seems a good plan.

I have a Domino 700 and the seneca gear and 700 and 500 domino systainers.
You can spend a lot, but it works well and if one uses them then they make sense.

However I am not sure a domino replaces the bicuit joiner, unless one is joining real wood. For ply or MDF the biscuits might be better??
And I could picture a lot of kid projects that use plywood or MDF.

I have an MFT. I do not see how one can plane on it.
Sawing and clamping works fine though. Handsawing and filing does not work as well.

Offline Tinker

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Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2015, 04:12 AM »
Quote: >>> ...what are some great projects to start first... <<<

Previously, you mentioned you have kids under 3.  You were also mentioning your garage is filling up with kids toys.  I am sure those toys are all either plastic or very flimsy "tin" and very susceptible to rust and or breakage.  When my kids were growing up, i was too busy running a biz and working on my house and property to spend any time making toys.  I sometimes wish i had spent a little more time making things for them.  I did instill in both children a lot of pride in what i had done.  That probably has lasted a great deal longer than any toys, but i still wish i had spent more of my time just making things for them alone.

Eventually, those kids grew up.  I am now making things for them. Small projects every Christmas and for birthdays.

Our grandson has been the one I built toys for. The first toy I made for him was a rocking horse.  I used more conventional tools for that one. Festoy had not entered my domain at that time. He was barely walking when I built the horse, but, as with all kids, he instinctively knew exactly what that horse was meant to do.  no body showed him how to climb onto it. He just did it.  By the time the rest of us were finished opening presents (Christmas) he was bouncing that horse all the way from tips to tips of the runners.  I was glad I had extended those runners a few extra inches beyond what the plans showed. And, a little more substantial.

I still had one of my backhoes.  My son was building his own biz and his toys were getting larger than the ones he had grown up operating from the time he could walk.  I made several construction toys for my grandson out of fire wood (BANDSAW was the major tool for those).  They were definitely NOT museum pieces.  They were very solid, and mostly on the chunky side.  Whenever Andrew had friends in the house, instead of the plastic and tin toys he had gotten from every one else, they all, without exception, gravitated to those wood and very solid toys I had made.  Those toys continued taking severe beatings long after all those storeboughts had long since disappeared via the garbage can.  I did have to make a few minor repairs along the way, but they are still alive.  Grandson now has a toy made of tin and iron and rubber that totes him around (17 in just two months, so you can guess the toy i am referring to).  But those wooden, and very blocky toys taken from the wood pile are still there awaiting the next generation of abuse.

My dad, when I was about 7 yrs, made a workbench for me.  It was scaled down to a size appropriate to my age.  i had shown an interest in working with my hands and sawing wood and hammering nails, so he built a bench for me.  By the time my GS was 6 or 7, I made a few repairs on that old bench and gave it to him as a Christmas present. Hhow many kids have something they can still use that was made by their Great grandfather? He does not use it so much for wood work, but for a few years, he was interested in dirt bikes.  That bench is now buried under parts for his toys more involved with grease than saw dust.  But useful to him, nevertheless.

I have added on to my house.  I have built a barn.  Stools-stools for wife, daughter and daughter in law-picture frames-serving trays-cutting boards-mirrors, all for all members of the family and close friends.  I have not bought many items from a store for years of Christmases and birthdays.  Sometimes (well, let's be honest, almost always) I end up with a note wrapped in a big package promising the item i will be giving them.  Last Christmas, i gave my GS a set of shelves with the stipulation he could (or would) help me build them.  He did all of the cutting, but, unfortunately, his 16th birthday had arrived at about the same time as Christmas.  By the time we got into the construction, he was taking care of his desire to get his drivers license.  The pieces are all cut and stored for assembly down in my shop. GS is very busy with his own priorities of the moment, priorities more related to keeping a many horsepawered engine very warm.  My son's present is still on the drawing board.  The last note from Christmas 2014 on my list.  I am starting on that today.  i have my list for 2015 in my computer.  I have not started construction as of now.  I do have plenty of printer paper for all of those notes.  ::)

@ Randel, I am not the only FOGger who uses skills and tools to make presents for family and friends. I am not patting myself on the back, i already have a sore shoulder from other endeavores more related to my 39 years. I am sure that your imagination will carry you thru with an answer to your own question >>> ...what are some great projects to start first... <<<.  Within a very short time, you will find it difficult to keep up with your ideas.  An old friend from out of my past used to say, "my eyes are bigger than my hands."  You will soon find your self in a like position.  8)
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Holmz

  • Posts: 4010
Re: Hello FOG
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2015, 08:40 AM »
Wayne - There is no like button... But that is great.