Author Topic: Which DE for lead paint clean up  (Read 1466 times)

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Which DE for lead paint clean up
« on: June 11, 2021, 11:01 PM »
I have a 1940s house with limited lead paint in the interior. Legally most of it isn't lead paint but  some trim and walls have small amounts (had it tested by xrf) most under .1 or . 2 micrograms per cm3 (the legal cutoff is 1). I do also have some deteriorating legal lead paint on exterior. This means effectively that I can't just let her rip (legal definition does not equal safe just lawsuits) and sand to my hearts content but also that I don't have to disclose. So... Partial win?

I've had awful luck at contractors following rrp precautions who  are lead certified and it seems they leave some amount of dust. I also have substantial flaking paint due to the previous homeowner not priming for latex over oil on most of the trim.

I'm looking to buy a festool hepa as dedicated hepa to clean up after chips and misc small home projects where lead paint is a risk and was looking at the smallest sys vacuum, mainly for portability and that since I'm not doing actual abatement I have low capacity needs. Would this work for me? Go bigger?

Also I'm worried that unlike my miele which I want to use for non lead it seems the bags don't self seal when opening the top. All thoughts appreciated

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Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 11:34 PM »
Anything with a HEPA certification. I’d go midi or largest size you think you will use.   I just got a ct 48 AC HEPA for that but I'm doing the whole outside of my house that was built in 1919.  Ya Got to love old houses. 
TS-75, LR32, OF-1400, TSO GRS16PE,  TSO TPG-20, TPG-30, TPG Adapter, XL DF 700 domino, Rotex 150, CT 48 AC HEPA Dust Extractor

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 488
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 11:59 PM »
Something designed for RRP.   

Try not to overfill the bag, and be sure to mist around the unit when opening it to remove the bag or change the filter.

If you really know you won't have significant capacity requirements, one of those small Atrix units might be a better choice.  Much easier to manage/store.  Then you can dedicate a larger unit to your non-hazmat related cleanup activities and dust extraction.


Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2021, 12:50 AM »
I was looking at the minuteman lead vacuum with ulpa. Higher filtration specifically marketed for lead work. The atrix models looked like they'd hid the spot and disposal seemed much easier along with storage but something says they're not that durable in my mind.

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Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 46
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2021, 10:19 PM »
Some older Festool dust extractors had HEPA filters, but were not certified for lead paint remediation, because there could be a small amount of leakage where the HEPA filter fit. That problem was fixed years ago.

From https://www.festoolusa.com/knowledge/hepa-dust-extractors#HEPACertificates :
RRP Full Unit Certified HEPA Vacuums
Only a Full Unit Certified HEPA dust extractor meets the EPA RRP regulation guidelines, protecting you from expensive fines! All current Festool CT Dust Extractor models have been independently tested and certified to be FULL UNIT HEPA Dust Extractors. When you purchase a new Festool CT Dust Extractor, regardless of model, you will find a printed certificate in the box as well as labeling on the dust extractor documenting its Full Unit HEPA certification. If your current vacuum only has a HEPA filter and is not Full Unit HEPA Certified, then you are at risk of being cited for noncompliance with EPA RRP regulations. Simply put, there's absolutely no substitute for Full Unit HEPA Certification when using your vacuum for RRP.

A HEPA filter is only as good as its seal with the vacuum.

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 46
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2021, 10:26 PM »
You might find these two website of interest:

http://lockuplead.com/about-lockuplead/

https://hygenall.com

I have not used these products yet. Researching lead paint remediation makes a good test of the differences in the results of search engines. Some news about searching today:

https://brave.com/search/


Offline rst

  • Posts: 2690
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2021, 07:11 AM »
EPA fines only apply to contractors, not to homeowners.  That being said, it is important for health that you research asbestos removal as the fine dust is most dangerous.  Full body Tyvek, goggles, respirator or better yet full face respirator.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7665
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2021, 07:58 AM »
EPA fines only apply to contractors, not to homeowners.  That being said, it is important for health that you research asbestos removal as the fine dust is most dangerous.  Full body Tyvek, goggles, respirator or better yet full face respirator.

I am amazed how often people here equate lead paint to asbestos. They are nowhere near in the same category.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5288
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2021, 09:24 AM »
EPA fines only apply to contractors, not to homeowners.  That being said, it is important for health that you research asbestos removal as the fine dust is most dangerous.  Full body Tyvek, goggles, respirator or better yet full face respirator.

I am amazed how often people here equate lead paint to asbestos. They are nowhere near in the same category.

And it’s sad that people fear asbestos more than silica when it generally takes decades for a debilitating case of asbestosis to develop but only a small number of years (or less) to be crippled by silicosis.

Cutting a simulated quartz counter top releases twice as much silica dust as cutting a genuine granite counter top.

Lead is much less hazardous but if it’s in the trim in the house I’d seriously consider removing and replacing the trim rather than trying to remove the lead paint on the trim.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7665
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2021, 01:11 PM »
Asbestos - In theory a single fibre can cause a deadly case of lungcancer, in practice the vast majority of people affected have been working in an asbestos plant or living in the vicinity, being exposed for years. Nevertheless, there have been plenty of registered cases where there has been no long term exposure at all.

Silicosis - Small silica particles are so sharp they damage lung cells when inhaled. A few of them once in a while don't do much harm, but breath a lot of them over a longer time and you'll eventually damage so many lung cells you get difficulty breathing, which can sometimes lead to death, but mostly makes life a very bad experience.

Lead poisoning - Not really harmfull for grown ups, unless you are exposed to it regularly for years in high doses, either through breathing or digestion. Lead is mostly harmful for kids because it interferes with cell division, and they will notice the effects at lower doses than adults. It still takes a few years of high exposure to see the effects.

Kids are mostly exposed to lead because of flaking paint inside a house, were hygiene is bad because the parents never clean. This way the layer of dust with lead in it builds up over time, and kids inhale it while they play on the ground.

As an adult you can work on lead paint and sand it, and just wear a good dust mask. As long as you do this incidentally, like in your own home, you never get exposed to a level that can do the slightest harm. Make sure you clean up and vacuum thoroughly after you're done, and there is no lasting danger either.

All the RRP rules are for people who work with lead paint on a daily basis, like professional painters. For them the exposure can add up.

Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2021, 02:06 PM »
On the dangers: attached is the National Toxicology Program's summary of the Effects of Low-Level Lead (this does not include high exposures).

Absorption rates are lower in adults, so that's the first factor-- reduced dosing and also reduced risk activity since we're not licking our hands, crawling on floors. Second, susceptibility: Adult brains aren't developing and so the cognitive risks aren't as pronounced. So, definitely: Kids and pregnant women are the primary risk groups, but lead poses  risks to adults, generally. This literature review deals with low exposure levels of less than 10 micrograms and even less than 5 micrograms (if you get a blood test today that's the 'normal' threshold). As you can see, there's evidence for cognitive, heart, and CNS effects at really low-levels. Incidental contact levels from say closing a window that has paint friction surfaces and inhaling that dust. Where research is limited, I expect we'll have more conclusive data in the future, which seems to be the trajectory of lead health-risk research: basically we keep on realizing its worse than previously though.

Now, you'd really have to do a number to have lead kill you. And for acute poisoning, I assume sand without ppe or similarly negligent behavior. And my guess is that for any of these health effect areas to be really noticeable, exposures would have to be higher (that is, how do you notice that you're a tad bit slower cognitively, or attribute it to lead and not age--same with hypertension, which has so many different pathologies. No one gets tested for this.). So in this regard, lead is not in the same category of mortality or disability as silica and asbestos. The reason we talk about asbestos (or similarly, asbestos more is: a.) its much more difficult to contain since friable fibers can stay in the airs for days, as I've read b.) it can kill you c.) it's effects are obviously the cause of asbestos. The last point means lawsuits. Try proving lead caused you to have cognitive impairment as a middle-aged adult. We talk about lead with kids because it is more dangerous, because also the effects are more easily noticeable and its more tragic.

Concluding, though: I'm in a highly analytical job and I place at least $500 worth of value on not risking any sort of impairment, no matter how slight. So, its all about risk tolerance.






Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2021, 02:12 PM »

Lead is much less hazardous but if it’s in the trim in the house I’d seriously consider removing and replacing the trim rather than trying to remove the lead paint on the trim.

Same thinking: I'm just going to replace the trim, and the doors that are flaking. The trim has so many layers of paint that all the detail is lost anyway. Right now, its mainly just feeling safe vacuuming areas with potential dust or paint chips, and for a couple reno projects we have where we will be dealing with confirmed high-lead components (we have a front door and sidelights with 1/3 lead paint by volume that will be getting ripped out). In my experience contractors leave dust and debris no matter what, so I want to be able to clean easily in a house that just has some of these risks.

As discussed, they are not big risks, but to me its worth it for the peace of mind and some health protection.

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 46
Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2021, 08:34 PM »
BBC Future article with some interesting information about silicosis and engineered stone:

The hobby with hidden health risks
By Zaria Gorvett
10th June 2021

Excerpt:

But while asbestos is now notorious even among the general public, scientists are only just beginning to understand the risks posed by newer building materials.

In 2019, scientists documented a disturbing trend among workers at factories cutting "engineered stone" in the US. At least 18 had fallen ill with silicosis, an incurable and potentially fatal disease usually caused by a build-up of silica in the lungs over many years. Two died.

The product is made from quartz aggregate held together by a resin-based glue, and has been emerging as a popular alternative to natural stone for kitchen countertops – but it contains a significantly higher proportion of crystalline silica than other materials such as granite or sandstone. When sanded, cut, ground, or drilled into, it generates vast quantities of dust, which can penetrate deep in the lungs – on X-rays, the organs are almost opaque.

Re: Which DE for lead paint clean up
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 08:54 PM »
I feel like the gist of it is: Don't inhale dust, fiber, water or anything that isn't a cigar, marijuana, a natural fragrance or air.

I have learned a bit more about silica dust from this thread, so thanks to everyone for adding another toxic dust for me to worry about. I have granite countertops myself.