Author Topic: Wago wire connector nuts  (Read 4021 times)

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Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 60
Wago wire connector nuts
« on: July 22, 2020, 11:31 PM »
Does anyone know why Wago doesn’t make a 4-port lever nut?  I just tried one of the 4-port Chinese knock-offs on Amazon and they’re junk.

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Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 05:58 AM »
I've wondered that myself. They have 2, 3, and 5 port.

Why no four port version is a mystery.

To me anyway, someone knows the answer.

I only buy the genuine Wago Lever Nuts. There are many tests showing the knock-off items are junk and dangerous as they don't have the load capacity that the Wago nuts do plus; and probably just as important; they are not tested or  listed by UL or another recognized NRTL hence can not be used per NEC.
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Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 681
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2020, 06:06 AM »
If you have solid wires, they do „push-in“ versions with 4 contacts.

Don’t know why they don’t do it on the clamping ones...

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 173
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2020, 06:33 AM »
In fact they have a 4 way push-in for solid and stranded wire up to 2.5mm2. photo below. I think the one posted by grobkuschelig is their 4mm2 version, which is indeed for solid wires only.

As Bob says, I'd never knowingly buy the Chinese versions. My workshop Chinese made led strip lamps have push in terminals and at least 10% didnt grip under a light "pull test".
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2020, 07:39 AM »
Yes they have the push-in versions but not a 4 port lever nut which is reusable like a twist-on wire nut.
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Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 173
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 08:15 AM »
Yes they have the push-in versions but not a 4 port lever nut which is reusable like a twist-on wire nut.
Actually the Push-in type are officially re-useable. To release a wire you "twist and pull".
However I also wish they did a 4 way lever style. (Is it to discourage double spurs being run?)
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1980
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 10:47 AM »
My guess is the 2 and 3 are the most common (they are for me at least).  Anything larger might be less common and there isn't much harm in covering both bases with just the 5 if the larger ones only cover 15-20% of sales.  It's not that much larger than a 4, of course, that statement really depends on what you or the electrician crammed into the box.  With all these "smart" things we're jamming into junction boxes these days...there just isn't room.
-Raj

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 4063
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2020, 01:07 PM »
While they're very easy to use, I have learned to not trust stab-in connectors over time.  The spring tabs tend to weaken and get corroded at the contact point, leading to high-resistance shorts, opens and possibly fires. 
- Willy -

  "Show us a man who never makes a mistake and we will show a man who never makes anything. 
  The capacity for occasional blundering is inseparable from the capacity to bring things to pass."

 - Herman Lincoln Wayland (1830-1898)

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2020, 01:40 PM »
While they're very easy to use, I have learned to not trust stab-in connectors over time.  The spring tabs tend to weaken and get corroded at the contact point, leading to high-resistance shorts, opens and possibly fires.

Right, that's why folks want the 4 wire lever locks.   Lever locks are amazing, they are not coming free.  Once you use them, you pretty much want to see wire nuts band.  No way the wire is coming out, the exposed bit is extremely small (compared to a wire nut), and you can attach and re-attach over and over, which is very helpful for a number of things.

Push in need to go away.

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 173
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2020, 02:28 PM »
While they're very easy to use, I have learned to not trust stab-in connectors over time.  The spring tabs tend to weaken and get corroded at the contact point, leading to high-resistance shorts, opens and possibly fires.

Right, that's why folks want the 4 wire lever locks.   Lever locks are amazing, they are not coming free.  Once you use them, you pretty much want to see wire nuts band.  No way the wire is coming out, the exposed bit is extremely small (compared to a wire nut), and you can attach and re-attach over and over, which is very helpful for a number of things.

Push in need to go away.

Have you tried to pull wires out of each? It is just as easy to pull wires out of a lever type. The internal wire clamping mechanism is almost identical, the main difference being the lack of insertion force in the lever types. The lever is not a lock, it is a lift. This indeed may make it preferable, but there is not a difference in reliability if the wires are stripped and inserted properly.

If the correct wire stripper is used then there is no increased danger of exposed wires if the transparent plastic is used to view the conductor has reached the end of the receptor, (as per the instructions).

As with other systems, these connectors are for use either within a cabinet, or in conjunction with the Wago junction boxes that include cable strain relief and are self extinguishing if flamed.

I have no connection with Wago, but I have use them for years in a professional capacity and know something about the testing and approval regime they have all gone through. Probably the most stringent in the world. (they are German after all!)
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2020, 02:35 PM »
Interesting question! I took the liberty of forwarding the question to Wago. Let's see if they feel playful enough to answer. :)

As AstroKeith pointed out, 221 is spring loaded/tensioned as well.

Correctly installed, genuine Wago connectors will not come loose/corrode or lose tension - and will actually withstand much higher loads than what they are rated for. They are safe-safe.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6349
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2020, 02:54 PM »
Neither allowed by code in Chicago, and amendment in surrounding municipalities.

Some recessed lights come with them pre-installed, have to cut them off and wire nut.

Tom

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 431
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2020, 06:23 PM »
Quote
Neither allowed by code in Chicago, and amendment in surrounding municipalities.

Some recessed lights come with them pre-installed, have to cut them off and wire nut.

Sounds like Big Wirenut has taken control.  :-)

The lever nuts are especially handy when a previous individual has not left enough wire in the box.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2020, 10:26 PM »
Neither allowed by code in Chicago, and amendment in surrounding municipalities.

Some recessed lights come with them pre-installed, have to cut them off and wire nut.

Tom

Would like to see what it says.  I know things like can lights come with the push ins on them, I cut those off and use Wago Lever Locks.  I can see someone getting lever locks and push ins confused for each other.

The only way a wire falls out of the lever locks is if you don't get it in, in the first place.  I have done my own "testing" trying to yank them out, trying to get one to fail, just not going to happen.

I dislike wire nuts very much, trying to get everything together right is hard and even when you do it all correctly, you still get wires that pull out.  Going thru old stuff, I've found a good number of wires that soon as you move things, a wire will come out the back of the wire nut. It is just too error prone of a method.  Plus you are making wires that are difficult to put back, you pretty much have to keep cutting the ends off and starting over, in time, there is no more wire left.  Then you have the crimp rings, were you have no choice but to cut things each time.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2020, 05:32 AM »
I like the Wago lever nuts for light fixtures. Most of the new fixtures have lighter gauge wire and sometimes trying to join that with a traditional twist-on wire nut to a piece of #12 or #14 solid wire can be difficult, especially in tight quarters or with multiple conductors.

Not a problem with the lever nuts. And when you want to change the fixture a couple years from now it's a simple task. No straightening of twisted wires as was mentioned and you're not trying to stuff 3 or 4 #12s twisted together into the back of the box.

In the tests I've watched on YT the wire insulation smoked and burnt away before the Wago nut. In short the end result was the same as for a twist-on wire nut. The plastic of the lever nut smoked and melted (same as the twist-on wire nut) but the latching mechanism never let go. And that was at triple the rated amperage of the nut.

I don't like the push-ins. To me they don't give any confidence in the connection. Any time you have a conductor loose enough that you can easily spin it around with such little effort how can you have a solid and reliable electrical connection. I'm not saying they will fall apart on their own (or will they), but there must be a higher resistance at that point created by the loose connection and limited contact area between the conductor and the push-in connector than when you have a more robust connection such as the tried and true twist-on nut.
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Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 05:50 AM »
I like the push-in connectors, I am very glad for us the wire nuts are a thing of the past.

I do realise everything is easier here in 220v country as we only need half the hardware for the same load.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 11:57 AM »
I like the push-in connectors, I am very glad for us the wire nuts are a thing of the past.

I do realize everything is easier here in 220v country as we only need half the hardware for the same load.

What gauge/mm^2 wire do you guys run in the walls?

Here the biggest issue is our J-boxes (pattress box) haven't changed in 100 years, the form factor of North American switches, plugs are small, so trying to fit 3 wires in there becomes the challenge (really 6 if feeding the next outlet, and 7 if you count box ground).  Even with the 3.5" deep boxes, if you are doing things like wiring a 20A outlet and have it feeding the next one, you have to go to a square box with cover plate or you violate box fill code.  Newer big devices like GFCI outlets compound this.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 600
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2020, 01:13 PM »
I like the push-in connectors, I am very glad for us the wire nuts are a thing of the past.

I do realize everything is easier here in 220v country as we only need half the hardware for the same load.

What gauge/mm^2 wire do you guys run in the walls?

Here (EU, not sure if its universal for the whole EU...) 1.5 mm2 for switches and 2.5 mm2 for sockets. But we run 230V  [tongue]

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2020, 02:02 PM »

What gauge/mm^2 wire do you guys run in the walls?

Here the biggest issue is our J-boxes (pattress box) haven't changed in 100 years, the form factor of North American switches, plugs are small, so trying to fit 3 wires in there becomes the challenge

I almost exclusively use 2.5 mm2 and that's what I find most in installations.

And I think our boxes are also becomming too small, it is amazing how much wire electricians put in those things in new installations. The push in connectors sure help to keep everything more organised than those old wire nuts.

I've also never seen them come loose or oxidise.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2020, 03:43 PM »
here's a chart showing the relationship between AWG, mm Diameter,  and mm2.
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2020, 04:43 PM »
Quote
I almost exclusively use 2.5 mm2 and that's what I find most in installations.

Quote
Here (EU, not sure if its universal for the whole EU...) 1.5 mm2 for switches and 2.5 mm2 for sockets. But we run 230V

So most wiring in US houses is 15amp circuits, which here is wired with 14 gauge.  So not much of a difference,  the 20A stuff is done with 12gauge.  Code only requires 20A outlets in a few spots.  Better builders will just wire everything in 20A/12gauge, that helps when people have a lot of different plugs in use at the same time on a circuit. But they cheap out on everything, so really you will only see it on a contracted home were you spec such wiring. 

I'm not sure on the 1.5 for switches and 2.5mm for sockets? are you mixing wire sizes in the same circuit?  Or do you not power lights and plugs off the same circuit?  20Amp circuits can become an issue if used with multi switch lighting, as 20A 3ways get expensive, 20A 4 ways are insane prices.  Best practice is to have lights and plugs on separate circuits in a room, but it's not required, and builders cheap out.  Makes doing work in such rooms "fun", want to work on the lights, no working plugs to plug a lamp into.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2020, 10:05 PM »
I installed low voltage outdoor landscape lighting throughout the yard 15+ years ago. There are 30 bollard lamps and 20+ downward projecting fence lights plus several spot lights and some individual small spotlights highlighting small sculptures. All use LED lights and have been absolutely bullet proof over the years.

For me, the success in this lighting was guaranteed by tinning every electrical connection so that wire oxidation wouldn't eventually compromise the entire system and render it useless. An oxidized connection is a clear path to electrical resistance, a potential fire hazard and ultimately an electrical failure.

To ensure the success of this, at the time, I installed Wago push-in connectors which were cutting-edge 15 years ago. They've given me absolutely no problems and the lights are operated from dusk-to-dawn 365 days a year in rain and snow...sometimes to the depth of 3 feet.

Around 2 years ago I decided to replace the inexpensive ($10) bollards with some RAB items which are more substantial. Here's a shot of the Wago connector attached to the original bollard after 13 seasons of outdoor service.




The issue I had with the original Wago push-in connector, is that to remove the wire ends from the Wago by twisting the wire, sometimes the wire is held so tight that the stranded wire breaks before the wire connection is released. Thus I've begun the task of replacing the original Wago connectors with the new 221 lever connectors...a huge difference when it comes to operating ease.

Inspite of the code restrictions, I'm also using the Wago 221 lever nuts inside the house for electrical connections. They are so slick...it's too bad the local rules & regulations are sometimes so far behind the current times.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 09:31 AM by Cheese »

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 173
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2020, 05:30 AM »
Quote
I almost exclusively use 2.5 mm2 and that's what I find most in installations.

Quote
Here (EU, not sure if its universal for the whole EU...) 1.5 mm2 for switches and 2.5 mm2 for sockets. But we run 230V

So most wiring in US houses is 15amp circuits, which here is wired with 14 gauge.  So not much of a difference,  the 20A stuff is done with 12gauge.  Code only requires 20A outlets in a few spots.  Better builders will just wire everything in 20A/12gauge, that helps when people have a lot of different plugs in use at the same time on a circuit. But they cheap out on everything, so really you will only see it on a contracted home were you spec such wiring. 

I'm not sure on the 1.5 for switches and 2.5mm for sockets? are you mixing wire sizes in the same circuit?  Or do you not power lights and plugs off the same circuit?  20Amp circuits can become an issue if used with multi switch lighting, as 20A 3ways get expensive, 20A 4 ways are insane prices.  Best practice is to have lights and plugs on separate circuits in a room, but it's not required, and builders cheap out.  Makes doing work in such rooms "fun", want to work on the lights, no working plugs to plug a lamp into.

From what I have learnt, US wiring practice is very different to the UK, and I think EU.

Power sockets are normally fed by a ring main, ie the 2.5mm cable goes from one socket to the next and then finally back to the same breaker in the consumer unit (switch box). Here it is protected by a 32A breaker. A typical house may have two rings, upstairs and downstairs. As extensions are built then typically extra rings are added. It is allowed to run any number of spurs off to one double socket each from any point in a ring using 2.5mm. When I refurbished our kitchen I added its own dedicated ring (32A) plus a dedicated feed (4mm) to the cooker, 32A. The house is 60 years old and when I took the old kitchen apart I discovered the cooker was on a 2.5mm spur, off another 2.5mm spur!!!

Star wiring is not commonly used. If so typically a 20A breaker is used in the consumer unit.

High power items (ovens etc) have their own dedicated cable and breaker.

Lighting (1.5mm) are also on rings but separate. Each ring will have a 5A breaker.

Nowadays we have Residual current breakers RCCDs (Earth leakage) in the consumer unit, usually one for each bank of say 6 breakers. Thus the whole house is protected in one go.

Our UK plugs have fuses, 3, 5 or 13Amp. These are to protect the power cord and attached equipment. Our plugs are big so as to house the fuse. The pins are long and include an insulated section. It is impossible to get fingers to touch the live part of a pin while inserting the plug. All our plugs have an earth pin even if the equipment doesn't need an earth, in which case it is a plastic pin. This is needed as the socket contains shutters to stop 'items' being poked into the line and neutral holes and the shutter is opened by the action of the (longer) part pin. I think the UK is unique in having fused plugs?

Last figures I saw we were down to about 60 deaths pa from electrocution in the UK (pop 70million). Most of these are humans doing something they really shouldn't. The widespread use of RCCDs has vastly reduced accidental electrocution.

So with a ring main, there should never be more than three cables in the back of a socket. The ring in and out, plus a spur. A typical pattress box is 35mm deep, but 25mm are increasingly common. Many newer sockets are designed to fit even the 25mm deep mattresses and still enable three cables. I even have some that have built in USB chargers that fit a 25mm pattress - can be tight though.

A ring main, plus our socket terminal can accommodate three 2.5mm wires, means that wire nuts aren't commonly needed in the UK. A long time ago ceramic wire nuts were used, but these proved nasty (brittle etc( and the whole concept fell out of favour in the UK. If we wanted to splice wires we would use screw terminals in a dedicated junction box. This is what has now been replaced by Wago blocks in junction boxes.

It is now illegal to do wiring unless you are qualified, (similarly for gas) or you get it inspected and tested by someone who is. I dont think this happens much from the amount of stuff that is bought in DIY stores.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2020, 05:55 AM »
I'm not sure on the 1.5 for switches and 2.5mm for sockets? are you mixing wire sizes in the same circuit? 

It's not true, there is no set rule to this. You can buy the 1.5 mm wires, but out of convenience most people and especially professional electricians use 2.5 mm wires only because you are certain they can take the load.

The issue I had with the original Wago push-in connector, is that to remove the wire ends from the Wago by twisting the wire, sometimes the wire is held so tight that the stranded wire breaks before the wire connection is released. Thus I've begun the task of replacing the original Wago connectors with the new 221 lever connectors...a huge difference when it comes to operating ease.

You are not supposed to use any of those connectors with stranded wires, only with solid wires.

Online MikeGE

  • Posts: 183
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2020, 08:52 AM »
You are not supposed to use any of those connectors with stranded wires, only with solid wires.

Correct!  However, if the situation requires the use of stranded wire and solid conductor wire is not available, the only acceptable solution (according to my electrical inspector) is to use crimp ferrules on the wire first to effectively make it a solid conductor.  I doubt he would like using this on the Wago connectors, but when attaching cables to screw terminal blocks, not having the properly crimped ferrules will result in a fail.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2020, 09:52 AM »
You are not supposed to use any of those connectors with stranded wires, only with solid wires.

Correct!  However, if the situation requires the use of stranded wire and solid conductor wire is not available, the only acceptable solution (according to my electrical inspector) is to use crimp ferrules on the wire first to effectively make it a solid conductor.  I doubt he would like using this on the Wago connectors, but when attaching cables to screw terminal blocks, not having the properly crimped ferrules will result in a fail.

Over here in Holland only solid wires are allowed for steady installations. Stranded wires are for things that get plugged into sockets, that are moveable and require flexibility, you are not allowed to make them part of the building.
   
Those crimp ferrules are indeed often used with stranded wires, but with screw terminals only, you should not stick them into the Wago connectors discussed here. I doubt they even fit.

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 173
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2020, 09:54 AM »
Wrong I"m afraid!
The 2773 series is compatible with solid & stranded.

I'm not sure on the 1.5 for switches and 2.5mm for sockets? are you mixing wire sizes in the same circuit? 
You are not supposed to use any of those connectors with stranded wires, only with solid wires.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2020, 12:25 PM »
The lever locks have usage with stranded and solid as one of the main selling points. Great for connecting light fixtures which often come with 16awg stranded.

Not sure why your codes would take issue with stranded wire in the structure, what do you pull thru conduit?  What do you use for service into the house?

The Typical NM-B  aka (nomex) aka (non-metalic), sheathed wiring used in most residential applications is solid wire, but larger sizes are stranded, and if you are building with conduit, you have to pull individual wires, and that will generally be stranded. Some parts of the country are more extreme like Chicago area, I believe they still require conduit or armored cable for everything, there are special J-boxes just for that part of the country for their codes. Commercial work/multi unit work is also often still conduit or non-metalic.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2020, 01:23 PM »
Wrong I"m afraid!
The 2773 series is compatible with solid & stranded.

No, I am right I am afraid. Sorry. [tongue]

On the Wago website you can read they make a difference between Solid, Stranded and Fine Stranded wires.

The 2773 series you mention here are compatible with Stranded or 7-Stranded wires as they call it. Not with Fine Stranded wires. I was reacting to Cheese, and he clearly used Fine Stranded wires. The Fine Stranded wires are most common. Good luck trying to push those in. It only worked for Cheese because he tinned the ends together.

Here Wago shows what is compatible in their promo vid for 2773 series connectors:



And these are the Fine stranded wires I was talking about:



And these are the 7 Stranded wires they mean:



Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2020, 01:31 PM »
The lever locks have usage with stranded and solid as one of the main selling points. Great for connecting light fixtures which often come with 16awg stranded.

Yes, the lever locks can have all the stranded wires in the world. No pushing in required when the lever is open.

Not sure why your codes would take issue with stranded wire in the structure,

Well, I meant the fine stranded wires. They can't take the loads required for a house.

what do you pull thru conduit? 

What does that mean?

What do you use for service into the house?

What does that mean?  [smile]

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 600
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2020, 05:04 PM »
Quote
I almost exclusively use 2.5 mm2 and that's what I find most in installations.

Quote
Here (EU, not sure if its universal for the whole EU...) 1.5 mm2 for switches and 2.5 mm2 for sockets. But we run 230V

I'm not sure on the 1.5 for switches and 2.5mm for sockets?

Maybe I should have mentioned  that its for switches that are used for lights. Lights here (CZ) are on its own breaker. If you would be switching your sockets or other heavy stuff I wouldn't go with 1.5 for the switch.

BTW that info comes from my (certified) electrician, so I will assume he knows what he is talking about.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2020, 05:33 PM »

What does that mean?  [smile]

Large gauges of wire or only stranded, there is no solid 2/0 wire  (well, maybe someone makes it, but it would be rebar).

A standard service for a home in the US/Canada is 200Aamps.   "service" if that was a point of confusion is the term used for the connection from the utility to your house.  Older homes have 100 (or even less) services.  Cheap builders will often put 150A services in. Bigger homes will have 400A services, those are basically just 2, 200Amp panels (breaker panel) in parallel. 

For 200Amps  in copper you need 2/0, and if using aluminum 4/0.   You can see Bob D. post for a table with conversion if you need it.  Those size wires/cables are only stranded.

You can buy cables/wires in multiple forms here.  You can buy SER cables which are purpose made for this, they have the conductors and ground in a durable covering which can be left exposed. Other wise you have to run individual wires.  (2 hots, neutral, and ground (home side of meter socket).  These need to be color coded too (they allow colored tape). When you run individual wires, they must be in conduit. This can be Rigid (basically galvanized pipe), Metallic (thinner stuff), PVC conduit (grey PVC), ENT (flexy stuff).  I'm not sure if you were joking, or if you have a different term for conduit over there.  For some reason I was thinking a lot of the wiring there is run in conduit.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #32 on: July 25, 2020, 06:53 PM »
A standard service for a home in the US/Canada is 200Aamps.   "service" if that was a point of confusion is the term used for the connection from the utility to your house.  Older homes have 100 (or even less) services.  Cheap builders will often put 150A services in. Bigger homes will have 400A services, those are basically just 2, 200Amp panels (breaker panel) in parallel. 

For 200Amps  in copper you need 2/0, and if using aluminum 4/0.   You can see Bob D. post for a table with conversion if you need it.  Those size wires/cables are only stranded.

Wow. Is that really true, such thick wires and such high amps? I keep being amazed about how American electricity works.

Over here, the main breakers for a standard home are 25 amps max. They are supplied with electricity from outside through 4 mm thick wires. All single core, solid wires. And they will supply all the energy needed for a house, no need to use thicker wires.

Then everything inside the house is 2,5 mm2 thick wires, and only a wire that runs between a wall switch and a lamp may be 1,5 mm2.

Everything you mention above is considered "industrial" here.

So when I think of "Stranded" wires, I think of the fine stranded wires, we don't see any other here inside a house. I had no idea American lines need to carry such loads you need to get such thick wires.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2020, 10:21 AM »
Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 12:25 PM
what do you pull thru conduit?

What does that mean?


What type wire or cable do you use in a raceway or conduit?

Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 12:25 PM
What do you use for service into the house?

What does that mean?  [smile]


What type cable do you use for the service drop from the utility pole on the street to the meter and then the service entrance cable from the meter to the breaker panel?
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2020, 10:31 AM »
You are not supposed to use any of those connectors with stranded wires, only with solid wires.

Ya I know...I just sort of cheated on this one.  [big grin]

However it does work well, and you can't knock success. The first landscape lighting system I put together, I tinned the wire ends and then used twist-on wire nuts. Eventually though contact through the wire nuts wasn't continuous so sometimes the lights went on...sometimes they didn't...and sometimes they flickered. I've never encountered that when using the Wago 773 connectors. However the Wago 221 lever nut connectors are miles ahead.






Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 708
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2020, 11:23 AM »
Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 12:25 PM
what do you pull thru conduit?

What does that mean?


What type wire or cable do you use in a raceway or conduit?

Quote from: DeformedTree on Yesterday at 12:25 PM
What do you use for service into the house?

What does that mean?  [smile]


What type cable do you use for the service drop from the utility pole on the street to the meter and then the service entrance cable from the meter to the breaker panel?


In my part of the world (where Alex also resides) there are no overhead electricity lines, except high voltage. Everything is underground, even in rural areas. We have to use two parties to get electricity: one firm is responsible for bringing the lines to your home or business. There are a few of those, all active in certain areas (mostly a couple of provinces). They charge for delivery and rental of the meter.
Then there are the 'energy brokers' — there are quite a few of them. And they are available everywhere. Some market themselves on being green, others on being cheap. They are really competitive and good deals can be had when you switch between them. They charge by the kW/hr and also take in all applicable taxes (of which there are quite a few). Most also do natural gas, which is still the most used product for heating and hot water in Holland.

Everything inhouse is subject to code, as in most civilised countries. But in the Netherlands there is one code for all, depending on whether you are a home owner/renter or business. Everything is house has to be in conduits. PVC and ABS are omnipresent. In some cases other conduitmaterial may be used. We only use solid copper wiring.
I do not know if this is still current, but there used to be two ways to do wiring: Centralized (which is with boxes that fork aof to receptables etc., and looped — more or less you Americans do it. BUT: in Holland not every line has a breaker. We group rooms and machines, to use a common breaker. In my home I have two breakerhousings (had to do with division into home and business). Both have six or seven breakers. There is also a main cut off /breaker.


Edit: fixed a few typo’s.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 09:48 AM by Bert Vanderveen »
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #36 on: July 26, 2020, 01:56 PM »
A standard service for a home in the US/Canada is 200Aamps.   "service" if that was a point of confusion is the term used for the connection from the utility to your house.  Older homes have 100 (or even less) services.  Cheap builders will often put 150A services in. Bigger homes will have 400A services, those are basically just 2, 200Amp panels (breaker panel) in parallel. 

For 200Amps  in copper you need 2/0, and if using aluminum 4/0.   You can see Bob D. post for a table with conversion if you need it.  Those size wires/cables are only stranded.

Wow. Is that really true, such thick wires and such high amps? I keep being amazed about how American electricity works.

Over here, the main breakers for a standard home are 25 amps max. They are supplied with electricity from outside through 4 mm thick wires. All single core, solid wires. And they will supply all the energy needed for a house, no need to use thicker wires.


Not sure how you could run any home on 25amps.  I just check, while sitting here with just a couple things on, the house only pulls a couple amps, but when the AC runs, that's 16amps (@240V) by itself and that is a small AC.  Code is now 100Amp min and it would be rough to have a modern house on that.  Trailers/Mobile homes have 60A connections, but those assume a lot of the appliances will be Natural Gas/Propane.

I have to assume you run basically everything on gas.  Otherwise it's just not going to work.  A smaller AC unit takes 30-40amp circuit. A dryer ~50amp, cooktops, ~50amp, oven ~50amp,  if you have electric heat or electric back up to a furnace, you will probably have 40-80amp of electric heat.  These are all 240V.  The general assumption is not everything is running at once, or at full power. Water heating is another load.  Tanked water heaters don't draw much electricity, they just waste it.  As we move to tankless, now you have another item that needs massive amps.  The best such units come from Germany. This Company Makes a lot of stuff used here, you can buy them at home centers. That unit is 36kW (150amps). Made in Germany.  So folks must have power for such things.

That unit alone would require a house to have over a 200Amp service. If you were trying to support many showers in a home, you would need multiple units.

While in many areas, such as cities/suburbs,  you can get natural gas service, that is about it. It doesn't exist in rural areas and never will. The cost is over the top compared to running power lines. Now with the early stages of eliminating natural gas usage (some cities have now started banning new gas connections), everything will be electric, this will just make the bigger services (400A) more common/normal. In rural areas, electric heat (baseboards) has been the norm since the 60s unless you heat with wood, or you have to use Propane/Oil which is a hassle and subject to major price shifts, and fear of running out before the fuel truck comes.

If your electrical system is that minimal, then keep that in mind from the discussions we have had one 110V stuff in the US and the idea of getting rid of it.  The US/North America has a massive electrical grid, it's very extensive. Our homes are heavily electricity dependent and have very extensive/heavy duty electrical systems in them compared to other places in the world. Changes to them are hard. The 110V stuff is just lights and outlets, big stuff is all 240V.

Heating and cooling are also major loads that most of Europe doesn't have. Large chunks of the country need both massive heating and cooling systems based on the seasons. Few parts of the country is not having AC realistic. And only maybe Hawaii, Puerto Rico might get away without heat. Electric Air Source Heat Pumps are becoming much more common across the country for heating/cooling.

Also now we get into EV cars, there is another 50-60A 240V load.


Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2020, 02:19 PM »
What I think Alex is referring to, is pretty much a single circuit - long after what is actually supplied to the house (and probably split over 3 phases) by the utility.

At least, that is what is done in Germany. Do not generalize "Europe" when it comes to electricity/code.

Kind regards,
Oliver



Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2020, 02:34 PM »

In my part of the world (where Alex also resides) there are no overhead electricity lines, except high voltage. Everything is underground, even in rural areas. We have to use two parties to get electricity: one firm is responsible for bringing the lines to your home or business. There are a few of those, all active in certain areas (mostly a couple of provinces). They charge for delivery and rental of the meter.
Then there are the 'energy brokers' — there are quite a few of them. And they are available everywhere. Some market themselves on being green, others on being cheap. They are really competitive and good deals can be had when you switch between them. They charge by the kW/hr and also take in all applicable taxes (of which there are quite a few). Most also do natural gas, which is still the most used product for heating and hot water in Holland.


Everything inhouse is subject to code, as in most civilised countries. But in the Netherlands there is one code for all, depending on whether you are a home owner/renter or business. Everything is house has to be in conduits. PVC and ABS are omnipresent. In some cases other conduitmaterial may be used. We only use solid copper wiring.
I do not know if this is still current, but there used to be two ways to do wiring: Centralized (which is with boxes that fork aof to receptables etc., and looped — more ore less you Americans do it. BUT: in Holland not every line has a breaker. We group rooms and machines, to use a common breaker. In my home I have to breakerhousings (had to do with division into home and business). Both have six or seven breakers. There is also a main cut off /breaker.

New developments and such are underground, but older neighborhoods are above ground.  Rural areas are a mix, it is slowly moving underground as less issues of damage in a remote area when underground. Things vary by state, they each have a board which oversees the utility companies, and have different laws.  In general, your bill is 2 parts. Generation and Transmission. In some states you can pick your Generation company separate from transmission. You have no real option when it comes to who connects to your house, there are never 2 companies with wires to your home. Thus your only option if the service is bad, is to go off grid.  So in general, it sound more or less the same as what you describe.

In the US, the wiring practices in houses in probably the most unified part of building code.  While some states have their own code, most code in states in going to IBC (international building code), which covers all forms of buildings, they make a subset of it called IRC (international residential code), which just removes everything that doesn't apply to a home as things needed for a skyscrapper or manufacturing plant may not apply to a 2 story home. This code calls out other codes for some things, such as electrical. Electrical in all codes in the US goes to NEC (National Electrical Code). If covers everything that uses electricity. From a small home, the a massive industrial plant. It's all one mega code. The building codes of Canada are more or less identical to the US codes. Any construction in the US, done by professional, or done by homeowner is subject to this code (even if someone things it doesn't apply to them, it does).

Ring buses would be illegal in the US. Houses have a main breaker that will shut everything down, and then every circuit has a breaker. What is on that circuit could be any combination of things.  Ideally, every room/zone of a house would have 2 circuits, one for plugs, one for lights. But that rarely happens.  Things get lumped together, a room may get feed from a 15A circuit, near the door, it splits with a branch doing the plugs, and another branch going to the light switch and then to the light.  Some stuff is defined as being on it's own. Bathrooms need a dedicated 20A GFCI circuit for each bath.  Kitchens have many circuits.  Two 20a countertop plug circuits, 1 dishwasher circuit, 1 fridge circuit, lights are often on their own, then assuming electric cooking, you would have 2 more 240V ~50amp circuits for those items. So you could have 7 circuits just in a kitchen.  240V stuff is almost always single device stuff (furnace, heat, AC, washers, dryers, etc).

A standard full size main panel in a house is 200A, with 40 breaker spaces. Keep in mind anything 240V takes 2 breakers, so the kitchen above would use 9 spaces.  You can fill such a panel very fast.  If you run out, you put a 240V (double pole) breaker in it and install a sub panel, often 100A, 20-30 spaces.  Older homes with just 100A, 20breaker panels run into problems on upgrades as there is no place to add circuits, and they can't easily support 240V appliances because of space limits.

As was mentioned, we assume not everything is on at once, otherwise a panel with 40 breakers, all 15A, would need to be 600A.

One thing that jumps out watching film and tv filmed in Europe is how there are no outlets anyplace. In the US, you are never more than 6ft/2m/1(social distancing) from an outlet in basically any room/hallway/etc by code.  You known when you are watching stuff from Europe because you don't see outlets anyplace. Do folks run extension cords for everything? We have switches at almost every doorway, plugs all over the places, often because code dictates you have them pretty much everyplace.  I would guess on some levels this is a result of a large number of buildings being pre-electricity, so code has never pushed for rules that would make such extensive wiring required.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2020, 02:48 PM »
What I think Alex is referring to, is pretty much a single circuit - long after what is actually supplied to the house (and probably split over 3 phases) by the utility.

At least, that is what is done in Germany. Do not generalize "Europe" when it comes to electricity/code.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Agree on not generalizing "Europe", but it's a bit difficult especially from the outside. Just like I wouldn't expect someone from "Europe" to separate our different US states from the whole.  There isn't a great alt way to define things.  Alex being from the Netherlands probably wouldn't want to see a survey of Americans when asked to point to "the Netherlands" on a map *cringe*.

While your region of the world is famous for things like the multiple electrical plugs for each country, some of the basics of the electrical look to be fairly standardized with all the countries agreeing to unifying voltages, wiring color codes, etc.  Some of it is a mystery to me, like which countries send 3phase right to homes and which don't. It's rather hard to find details of wiring practices in Europe from N.America.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2020, 03:01 PM »
@DeformedTree

I'm going to search for a couple of pictures from my library, and take some I can easily re-take right now.

This will take a while. I'll be back.

Speaking of Germany, your first "problem" is, that you would need to buy the code/standard as document before you can read it as whole. What you will find online are excerpts, and without really knowing what you're looking for, you will have a very hard time finding it.

All standards have to be bought here: https://www.beuth.de/en


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2020, 04:00 PM »
A single 25 amps main fuse is the standard here for houses. It is deemed enough for most uses with normal appliances. The main fuse is sealed in a separate box, only the electricity company is allowed to touch it. From there on the wires run through the meter and to the main breaker board, which can have 4 - 8 breakers of 16 amps which distribute electricity through the rest of the house.

If your house is really power hungry you can have the main fuse upgraded to 35 amps. This does tend to happen more and more. In extreme cases you can get 50 or even 80 amps.

Since almost all houses here have natural gas as standard, heating is on gas, and so is most of the cooking. But electric cooking is winning more ground and it requires a 3 phase installation. When you upgrade your single phase to 3 phase you get 3 x 25 amps main fuses. 3 phase is also used for other power hungry applications like saunas and heated swimming pools.

An AC in a normal house is very rare here. 

As for outlets in European movies,  [huh] don't know what's up with that, but we have plenty of outlets in our houses. Even the smallest rooms in my house have at least 7.

It is no secret Americans use twice as much energy per capita as other western countries. Probably because it is so cheap? Here, half of our electricity bill is made up of taxes.

Online MikeGE

  • Posts: 183
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2020, 04:20 PM »
@DeformedTree

My U.S. point of reference includes three houses I owned in northern Virginia, with build years ranging from the late 50's to my last house built in 1975.  My Germany point of reference includes one house in Bavaria that I rented, originally built in 1933, one house in Hessen that I rented (unknown build year), and my current house in Hessen that I own, which was built in 2007. 

The electrical panel of the first Virginia house had a fuse block and screw-in fuses, with service from a pole-mounted transformer next to the house.  I few years after I bought it, I sold it to a property developer who wanted the land.  The second and third houses had 200A electrical panels, with service from buried aluminum cable.  In each case, the servicing transformer was on a pole about 100 yards away.  New houses built in the area of my last house have 400A panels.

I'll skip the first two houses in Germany, since the first no longer exists and the second had a major electrical and heating system renovation after I left.  My current house, like most contemporary German houses, has a 400/230V 3-phase feeder and a 40A main circuit breaker that also serves as the German equivalent of a GFCI for the entire electrical distribution.  I've seen some new houses with 63A main breakers, but these are likely set up to accommodate air conditioning systems at some time in the future.  Most houses here don't have central air conditioning because it's not needed.  The main service is from buried cable, but I have no idea where the transformer for my neighborhood is.  I've looked, and I can't find it, so it must be concealed nicely.

The only 3-phase equipment that is part of the house design is the main electric oven in the kitchen.  The second smaller oven is single phase, and the cook tops are gas.  The boiler for the domestic hot water and heating is gas.  Having 400/230 3-phase in my house made it easy for me to outfit my shop, since it was a simple task for me to add a second panel in the basement and run single and 3-phase branch circuits.

With the exception of the basement, all of the electrical distribution in the house is permanently sealed in the floors, walls, or ceilings.  We have plenty of pictures during the construction so we can pinpoint the cable and plumbing paths in each room if necessary.  Here is one picture showing the electrical and plumbing through the ground floor hallway.  When all of the infrastructure is in place, tested, and inspected, it is encased in a dense Styrofoam layer, then a self-leveling concrete is poured over it, and then the floor tiles are set.  Ceiling fixtures for lights are run along the floor above and then punch through the concrete floor.  Conduit, pull boxes, and junction boxes are positioned after the rebar is tied and become part of the wall after the concrete is placed.  My house is a bit unique to my neighborhood in that all walls and floors are cast in place concrete instead of the normal masonry.



The basement has surface mount cabling in plastic tubing, and my new shop has surface mount rectangular plastic raceway for the cable distribution.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2020, 05:38 PM »
Hi,

@DeformedTree

Just for you. ;)

This is the box placed by the utility service. As Alex pointed out, this is not to be touched/tampered with by the homeowner, it's sealed and only certified electricians that are registered with the utility/supplier are allowed to break the seal/ work on this - at least theoretically. I took these pictures when we got a new new meter put in by someone the utility sent, to do that they obviously had to terminate/shut down supply at the handover point which is this box.



The wires are protected against overload by fuses, since I obviously couldn't take them out - I can't tell you at how many A each one is rated for. This is the only picture I had from back then.



Next comes the meter, which is not of much interest I guess. Since it's a newer one, it's plastered with mac address and other id's, I don't feel like doing much editing today, so no picture of that.

After the meter, we have again 3 fuses to shut off supply completely. These come rated at 50A each. These are "ours", I can unscrew these at will, everything goes dark except for the meter.









From there it goes straight into the distribution/breaker panel.

Our large master bathroom flow heater runs on 3 phase and has 3 32A breakers. (Similar rated breakers are used for the oven/stove and other high load appliances)



So much for this part.

Now for the wiring.

Maybe most important is to consider cable length and corresponding line voltage drop. That's where the 1.5 mm2 vs. 2.5 mm2 come into play for the first time. The DIN VDE standard/code sets out maximum allowed line voltage drop from utility/ handover point and distribution terminal combined, all the way to the farthest point. If you get over 4% (I think that's what current maximum line voltage drop is.) you need to go one size up = 1.5 mm2 -> 2.5 mm2. But that's only part of the truth, there are other considerations to be made and rules to adhere to.

To give you an example: (And please, whomever else is reading this, this is not meant to be advice, I take absolutely zero responsibility for what you do with this information, this is for entertainment purposes only!)

Let's say you're using a type B, 16A breaker (which is most common for lighting as well as general purpose sockets/outlets) and use 1.5 mm2 wire, it results in a max. cable length of 18.XX meters.

Now if you use 2.5 mm2 wire, you get a max. cable length of 30.XX meters.

So you can easily see, using 2.5 mm2 wire can save you quite some headaches depending on what you do/where you are.

(Again, this is only a single consideration, from many more to make when choosing wire gauge/diameter)

Obviously, high load appliances need bigger diameter wires, too.

As far as I know, there is no minimum amount of sockets/outlets specified by the standard/code. Obviously, the older the house, the less sockets/outlets you are going to find. In newer houses you are going to find more, especially where people plan to install their tv, stereo, computer ...

Right now, if you "did it all"/ max out on adhering to the standard/code and what is considered good practice/state of the art. You'd have 2 breakers/room. One for lighting, one for the general purpose sockets. You'd also have corresponding GFCI's, you don't need one per room, but you'd group them logically - to get a nice & clean distribution panel, and of course have one for every bathroom/kitchen maybe even laundry room.

Always think safety first, which means you probably want to have some working lighting left when a breaker or GFCI trips. So using only one is rarely suitable. Also often doorbells/ door opener/ intercom systems run through your distribution panel, if it's shut down completely when a single GFCI is tripped, those won't work, either.

The standards/code in Germany are not laws or by any means chiseled in stone. They just save you the trouble of having to explain what you did in case of an accident. BUT: As a homeowner you sign a contract with your utility supplier, and that mostly has a part in it that says only certified and registered electricians are allowed to do any and all electrical work and that it has to be done in accordance with applicable standards/code. Also your home owners insurance can include such a part ...

There is a really, really large grey area because if you were to adhere to the (ever changing) standards/code in every aspect, you'd be employing your personal electrician, full time. (Slightly exaggerating.) And as always, the standards/code can be interpreted in different ways.

Want an example?

Let's say you add an outlet to an existing circuit. No big deal, right?

Well, electrician #1 will tell you no problem. Does it, and when installed takes the required measurements and documents them. All said and done. Everyones happy.

Electrician #2 on the other hand, just had a refresher course in regards to standards/code and is very eager to adhere to all the rules set out by those standards/code. You ask him about adding the outlet and he says, well the standard/code says that if you change the overall function/use of the circuit, which adding another outlet does, you have to bring your whole electrical installation up to date/ current standards/code.

Now realistically, especially with older houses and their electrical installations - this would mean tearing it all up. Since many people do remodel step by step, this would also mean going into rooms/parts of the house that might have been remodeled/renovated already. No one wants or does that. So that's where you start getting these what I call "mixed bags" of electrical installations. Sometimes with larger remodels/renovations, new wires are pulled for certain rooms, but others just stay as they are.

What I can say from experience is, that we use less energy and have a lot less high load appliances than generations before us. Which takes load off the grid and of course the distribution panel. We have oil heating, we will never have a chance of charging an electrical car, as we simply can't reach our entry by car. The only chance would be the dreaded underground parking garage, where we own a parking spot. ...

This is of course only a very small glimpse, some of my information might be outdated/ not correct, and again, this varies trough all countries.

The next big thing, in Germany, is going to be power grids using algorithms/ artificial intelligence and smart meters communicating with each other, especially those inside homes and commercial buildings that create their own energy and feed some of it back into the grid. It's supposed to work per street/ area and distribute energy more wisely, and most important of all: preventing peak loads before they happen.

They are fantasizing about this for every home. ...

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2020, 12:00 AM »
Thanks for that Oliver.  Part of trying to find the information is that tools like google are designed to give you results it thinks you want, so getting info on a subject outside the US, verses the same subject in the US is a problem. Also not knowing all the terms/brands use over there.

A great deal of how things work there is the same here.  You have to buy the code books, but thru various legal actions over time, they are somewhat published online. Far as who can work on stuff, in general most states allow a home owner to work on their home. It's hard for a state to not allow this as it gets into fundamental issues of government. You still have to get permits, and when you do, you sign an affidavit that it is your house, and only you are doing the work. You can't legally work on a friends house, or do commercial work.  Far as the utility, this is very similar too, basically remove the fuses that you have along the way.  A line comes off the transformer to the house, this goes to the meterbase. While if you are building the house, you will install the base and get it inspected, but once the utility comes, accepts it, and installs the meter, it gets a tag that can't be removed, the homeowner and electricians cannot touch this.  The other side of the meter power goes to the main panel, this has the breaker that shuts everything off. So you can flip that to kill power, but if you wanted to replace your panel, you will have to call the utility and they will pull the meter out of the base.  Sometimes there are disconnect switches between the meter and panel, this is owned by the homeowner.

I wish we had 3phase service to homes. That looks to be some of the differences here.  We are just single phase. Some properties like apartments might get 3phase, they will still have 110V stuff, but the 240 stuff is now 208.

From your post, most the practices and such you mention are the same, there is what would be nice, and then there is what gets made. Rules on upgrades, similar.  Stuff is grandfathered, but if you do too much, you have to re-do it all.  As mentioned in a different post on a ceiling fan, folks still have Knob and Tube, and it is legal to maintain it, you just can't add.

We don't have much all concrete construction, but it is becoming more common.  The photo of the routing is similar to what you would see in a commercial application here and a slab on grade house.  The wiring though I don't think would be allowed here.  I don't think those are Tee splices, but just a wire run out to something and then back, any kind of splice/tee would be a major violation. Also pretty sure any wiring in concrete must be in conduit, must ever access points every 4 90 degree turns.

I would expect a big change coming for you guys because as you state, things are not set up for being electric. Climate Change is going to drive that change very fast. Also not wanting to have oil/gas issues with Russia is going to drive rapid electrification. Germany is the leader in renewables on the electric grid, I would expect major pushes to make houses all electric over there.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2020, 12:33 AM »

It is no secret Americans use twice as much energy per capita as other western countries. Probably because it is so cheap? Here, half of our electricity bill is made up of taxes.

I don't know about that stat, If true I would assume it's "all energy", so transportation, gas usage, etc, everything. Being we have large houses, and are very spaced out, that would be expected.

Far as just electricity usage, we are 11th in the world per Wiki Sort it to the kWh per capita.  As you would expect, it's Scandinavian countries lead, and middle east countries, canada.  So places with high cooling and high heating loads. The US would naturally fit in there. No idea what is happening in Liechtenstein.

In general, I don't see how people here would be much different energy usage far as their homes. We don't really live differently. Bigger houses would be a change, but that's mainly newer construction, homes just a few decades old are far smaller.  As the chart on Wikipedia shows, it's really all a function of climate. It's a pretty small area of the country that doesn't get extremely cold, or extremely hot. Invention of Air Conditioning is credited as the biggest thing causing a shift in where the population of the country lives.

Don't know about electricity prices, like everything, everyone thinks they pay a lot.  13 cents a kWh is probably a good national average. If folks have gas service, they use that as it's cheaper than electricity. But again, the realities of climate change and pollution are changing that. Even if your electricity comes from a fossil fuel powered plant, it's vastly cleaner/more efficient than burning gas in different appliances in a home. The electrical grid gets cleaner every day. Coal is dying fast, replaced by natural gas (bad, but better than coal), solar and wind, and even a few new nuclear plants have come online in the last few years.

This page has a lot of good numbers.

What is amazing is that the US is now almost 10% wind and solar. Coal is now down to 23%, it was over 50% just 20 years ago.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2020, 02:35 AM »
Speaking of that black box/ wiring/ electrical installation, I would have to look up what current standard/code says about it. That's from somewhere in between 1965 and 1967. And we have that "funny" rule, that everything that was OK once according to standard/code, is OK if kept and left more or less untouched.

However, since I'm going to remodel that built in cabinet where all of that stuff is inside, I might have an electrician put in a newer one.

The biggest problem with all that "change" is that I think they greatly underestimate how many people are in the same boat like us. We are already heavily invested in this home, we've done a lot of things that we want to keep - so there is no way we're going to tear open walls, floors i.e. - as we did that already. So everything is going to stay. And if they want to force change upon us, they should be prepared for a long legal battle, we got money, we got time - and we're not going to give in easily. First round will be those smarter than our current smart meter meters. We're going to fight it. No way we let them put in a meter that can be locked remotely, needs "software updates" and is prone to hacking/hostile takeover. This is trouble waiting to happen, and we have absolutely no trust, not the slightest bit.

Same goes for the heating. We will switch from oil to gas because everything is ready for it and the existing infrastructure can be used, there is no way we will use electricity to heat the house.

Given that our house has no driveway we won't be having a car charger. Only way for that to happen would be inside the underground parking garage where we own a parking space. (As do almost 50 other people.) And since most of them are highly frugal there won't be any upgrade to the garage's electricity - so no high capacity chagers, and in fact, no chargers at all - because that would - from a legal standpoint valid today - need a majority vote that simply isn't there. One of the owners wanted to make that overhaul, because it makes sense from todays viewpoint. (Only solution for many, many people to ever being able to charge a car over-night on their personal/owned parking space.) I told him I'd support it. Turns out, the majority does not want it, end of story. So unless someone delivers a car that is charged quickly and efficiently - or they switch to hydrogen, no "alternative" car for us. Or the government makes good on a promise from years ago: the right to have a car charger as long as you foot the bill, no matter what other owners or respectively for renters, the landlord says. They had plenty of time to do/ deliver it, they didn't.

I'm sure the future will hold a lot of surprises for us in regards to all of this. We will stay inside our personal comfort zone for as long as somehow and feasible possible. ;)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2020, 02:38 AM »
Does anyone know why Wago doesn’t make a 4-port lever nut?  I just tried one of the 4-port Chinese knock-offs on Amazon and they’re junk.

I got a reply from Wago on this question a few minutes ago.

I quote: "Product management decided it's 2, 3 & 5."


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6868
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2020, 04:33 AM »

I quote: "Product management decided it's 2, 3 & 5."


Well, that clears things up.  [big grin]

Typical corporate answer.

Online MikeGE

  • Posts: 183
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2020, 05:22 AM »

I got a reply from Wago on this question a few minutes ago.

I quote: "Product management decided it's 2, 3 & 5."


Kind regards,
Oliver
Apparently Wago likes only prime numbers.   [big grin]

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2020, 06:43 AM »
"even a few new nuclear plants have come online in the last few years."

Let me start by saying the following is my opinion and I in no way represent or speak for the Nuclear Industry.

I spent most of my working career working at four nuclear power plants. I started my apprenticeship working at one in 1977, and up until earlier this year I was still working in the industry on major projects planning upgrades to systems in the plants. Having worked in this industry for over 40 years I know of very few NPPs (Nuclear Power Plants) that came online in the recent past. Those that did would have been offset by those units that were retired early for political reasons or at the end of their useful life span. Watts Bar Unit 2 was the last I believe and that was a few years ago. Before that the last unit to come online was Watts Bar Unit 1 and that was way back in the late 90s. Vogtle Units 3 & 4 which are under construction and nearing completion. In that same time 9 units have been permanently taken offline.

More reading if you're interested here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States#Nuclear_power_plants

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=38792

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/us-nuclear-industry.php

-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2020, 08:52 AM »

Let's say you add an outlet to an existing circuit. No big deal, right?

Well, electrician #1 will tell you no problem. Does it, and when installed takes the required measurements and documents them. All said and done. Everyones happy.


That's interesting Oliver...what measurements is he taking and where is he documenting them?

Is there a central file folder on every house?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2020, 10:34 AM »
"even a few new nuclear plants have come online in the last few years."

Let me start by saying the following is my opinion and I in no way represent or speak for the Nuclear Industry.

I spent most of my working career working at four nuclear power plants. I started my apprenticeship working at one in 1977, and up until earlier this year I was still working in the industry on major projects planning upgrades to systems in the plants. Having worked in this industry for over 40 years I know of very few NPPs (Nuclear Power Plants) that came online in the recent past. Those that did would have been offset by those units that were retired early for political reasons or at the end of their useful life span. Watts Bar Unit 2 was the last I believe and that was a few years ago. Before that the last unit to come online was Watts Bar Unit 1 and that was way back in the late 90s. Vogtle Units 3 & 4 which are under construction and nearing completion. In that same time 9 units have been permanently taken offline.



Correct, the ones you mention are what I was talking about.  Where I was going was that we basically stopped building nuclear plants by the end of the 80s, walked away from some in progress, finished some that were underwork.  We really didn't bring any online in a very long time, and most folks would think we haven't done any nuclear in decades. If you mention the Watts Bar reactors folks often don't believe it in my experience. Watts Bar 2 was 2016, Watts Bar 1 1996 (20 years).  46 plants went operational in the 80s, 5 operational in the 90s (3 of which were early 1990). As you say, it doesn't really offset those that get shut down.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2020, 07:05 PM »

Let's say you add an outlet to an existing circuit. No big deal, right?

Well, electrician #1 will tell you no problem. Does it, and when installed takes the required measurements and documents them. All said and done. Everyones happy.


That's interesting Oliver...what measurements is he taking and where is he documenting them?

Is there a central file folder on every house?

Hey @Cheese

That is regulated by standard/code, in this case: DIN VDE 0100-600

It's applicable for newly erected, extended and modified electrical installations. It's the first thing to be done after work is completed. You basically prove that your calculations/assumptions were correct. Extensions and modifications have to be examined and it is to ensure that they are in accordance with the standards/code applicable and do not interfere with the original installation.

This is in no way complete, it should be seen as a small excerpt:

1. Inspection (To some extent this is already done while the electrical installation is erected, extended or modified. Not everything is applicable for every installation.)

- Protection against electrical shock. (Are all covers installed, no exposed wires, (...)
- Protection against thermal impacts.
- Protection against fire and spreading of fire. (Fire proof doors, fire proof maintenance/inspection flaps, (...))
- Were the correct cables, wires, bus bars, (...) used in accordance with expected loads and line voltage drop.
- Were the correct safety devices chosen and installed, were they adjusted/configured correctly.
- Were the correct appliances chosen and installed. (Think IP ratings.)
- Is the electrical installation labeled properly and entirely (wires, breakers, (...).
- Is the technical documentation of components and wiring diagram present and correct/complete.
- Are all connections properly made.

2. Test and measure. (Again, not everything is applicable for every electrical installation.)

- Continuity of ground wire, protective-equipotential bonding. If applicable secondary protective-equipotential bonding.
- Insulation resistance/ leakage resistance.
- Separation of circuits. (SELV safety extra-low voltage; PELV protective extra-low-voltage; protective separation.)
- Resistance of insulated flooring and walls.
- Protection through automated shut off. (Think fuses, breakers, GFCI, (...)) Depending on which system/ on what devices are used, there are different measurements to be taken, like loop impedance for example. If GFCI/RCD are used, those have to be tested, and loop impedance may be proven by calculation.
- Effectivity of additional safety measures/devices.
- Grounding resistance.
- Polarity.
- Correct rotating/rotary field direction.
- Check that everything works as intended
- Check/measure max. allowed line voltage drop

3. Document it.

You can buy pre-made forms to document this, or you can make your own - which might help if you have different type customers with different electrical installations. As not everything is always applicable.

The electrician will keep one set of documents for himself (think liability) and one is handed over to the owner of the electrical installation or whomever keeps these for a (building) project.

Thats the best case scenario obviously. If you ask 10 people if they can provide this documentation, 0.25 will be able to hand you something.

As you probably know: Fluke, GMW, CA ... They all make testers for this to streamline the process. Then there is a similar procedure for testing and ensuring safe use of commercially used machinery, appliances, tools, (think electrical equipment). If you work commercially in Germany you are required to have your electrical equipment/electrically operated machines (tools!) tested and documented.

If you set up metal scaffolding commercially, it has to be tested for electrical safety as well. (Think grounding)

The depth of documentation and use of testers will vary.

--

The most pleasant surprise I had in this regard, was the tech guy that put a new water distribution panel inside the soap compartment of our washing machine, that was under warranty - so no DIY. ;) Even though he barely unscrewed the top of the washing machine, after he was finished, he pulled out an electrical appliances tester, tested and documented it.

You remember that "cycled to death" actuator? This is what happens because many, many, many electricians do not test & measure their work. I never got any documentation/ prove of tests for that master bathroom electrical work. Neither when they moved the terminal from ground level to basement. (But back then, I didn't even know it was good practice/ according to standard/code to do this.)

And that's the next problem. Who knows this? Most employees in larger companies will know that when they bring their personal coffee maker, charging device or whatever, they should send a notice to maintenance and they will test it, and put a little sticker on it that says tested and when the next test should be performed. As they are reminded to do it by e-mail or during "work safety/accident prevention class" hold by the appointed occupational health and safety "officer"/appointee once a year.

But they have no idea that after a remodel, electrical work in their home, there should be tests being done as well.

I can't speak of the landlord perspective. I do think that landlords are required to keep this kind of documentation and have the tests done after one renter moves out and another in.

But as a home owner. I don't think there are any requirements. At least I haven't heard of it. And as a frugal home owner, who is going to ask for this extensive and pricy testing. Many electricians will go with their gut feeling and tell you: "I put in a new outlet, with new wire, why should the ground wire be broken/ where is the need to test it - if "it works" and has worked."

A different story is the underground garage complex, as it has an appointed administrator - and they, for liability reasons, keep documentation.

But obviously, these tests don't lie. And what has been tested, can't be untested. (That's majority's thinking!) So with so many electrical installations being 30, 40, 50 years old and protected if they were up to standard/code once and are not altered/extended/modified or if there is a major change in/of use. Frugal people "in the know" don't touch this subject for a reason.

And it's starting much earlier, how many people really test their GFCI/RCD - at least by pushing that little test button?

In the end, there are not many accidents/death involving electricity so I guess with common sense and the way it currently goes in the real world - "it's ok".

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 10:57 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 60
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2020, 07:22 PM »
I got a reply from Wago on this question a few minutes ago.

I quote: "Product management decided it's 2, 3 & 5."


Priceless.  Thanks for trying!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2020, 07:27 PM by mwolczko »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2020, 11:36 PM »
Oliver,   for the most part that is what is covered by our permits and building inspector.  They check it matches up with what was suppose to be done, check it if it meets code, was done correctly, etc.  They might shove check tool in a plug, make sure it's wired right, test the GFCI were applicable.

All the resistivity testing and so forth, never seen that.  Don't really see where there would be a reason for that. If the person used the correct gage wire, and correct wiring practices connecting it, there shouldn't be an issue.   If a house suffers from bad voltage drop, the utility might come out with a load bank and do some checks to see if it is the house or the utilities issue.

Some inspectors might do a test on the grounding rod system, but that would be if they have reason to question it.

The signed off paperwork is kept with the town/city/county for records. Once the inspector inspects and signs off on the work, the liability is on the town/city/county,  not the person/company that installed it.

So they test polarity, and you guys don't have polarized plugs?  [huh]

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 7883
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2020, 12:08 AM »

Thats the best case scenario obviously. If you ask 10 people if they can provide this documentation, 0.25 will be able to hand you something.

Will most employees in larger companies know that when they bring their personal coffee maker, charging device or whatever, they should send a notice to maintenance and they will test it, and put a little sticker on it that says tested and when the next test should be performed. As they are reminded to do it by e-mail or during "work safety/accident prevention class" hold by the appointed occupational health and safety "officer"/appointee once a year.


Oliver, I think you should just ditch the idle chatter on Festoolownersgroup and engage in a 1000 page tome on the ins & outs of home inspections in Germany. If you focused on presenting that to the proper clientele you could make a million.  [big grin] [big grin]

I also love the 10 people statement...

I totally understand the frustration with the personal device thing, I believe it started when ISO was first established.

From an engineering perspective I understand the issue. You don't want engineers approving discrepant product based on non-certified measuring instruments. That's the reason personal measuring instruments must be verified every year and have a certified tag attached.

But coffee makers...really?

Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 60
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2020, 01:26 AM »
But coffee makers...really?
I’ve worked in big Silicon Valley corporations for >25years. All have had rules prohibiting personal devices like coffee makers...and some actually have had enforcement (eg confiscating a tea kettle).

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 755
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2020, 02:36 AM »
Slow down guys, I’m way back on page one and finding out that Chicago has a building code. I thought they only had bribes.  🤪

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #59 on: July 28, 2020, 04:50 AM »
Oliver,   for the most part that is what is covered by our permits and building inspector.  They check it matches up with what was suppose to be done, check it if it meets code, was done correctly, etc.  They might shove check tool in a plug, make sure it's wired right, test the GFCI were applicable.

All the resistivity testing and so forth, never seen that.  Don't really see where there would be a reason for that. If the person used the correct gage wire, and correct wiring practices connecting it, there shouldn't be an issue.   If a house suffers from bad voltage drop, the utility might come out with a load bank and do some checks to see if it is the house or the utilities issue.

Some inspectors might do a test on the grounding rod system, but that would be if they have reason to question it.

The signed off paperwork is kept with the town/city/county for records. Once the inspector inspects and signs off on the work, the liability is on the town/city/county,  not the person/company that installed it.

So they test polarity, and you guys don't have polarized plugs?  [huh]

I apologize for not being more specific.

What I wrote above is applicable for what we call "low voltage" both AC and DC. (That's why I said not every test is applicable all the time, it depends what electrical installation is present.)

"Low voltage", in German: "Niederspannung" -> 50 - 1000V AC, 120 - 1500V DC

The standard/code gives clear numbers up to which test results the installation passes.

To give you an example, a grounding rod has to be, depending on the type of soil/ground, inserted to a specific length to make sure it will pass the test and work appropriately.

The line voltage drop (and I hope that is the correct english term for it) has nothing to do with the supplier/utility, at least in first instance. It happens when cables/wires are too long compared to their diameter, as the resistance rises. Voltage drops, more current is pulled. This can be a serious safety issue (heat, rendering safety devices useless).

I say can, because all of that is - at least to some extent - a purely/merely theoretical issue from a residential/home owner perspective.

Of course we do have inspectors from state/municipal construction supervision agencies, but they do not collect "random" paperwork of projects/matters they are not actively involved in, nor do they inspect every construction site/ every step along when a building is being build.

Don't get me wrong here either, I'm really not an advocate for all that standard/code stuff. But I had to dive in a little deeper and Cheese asked about it. To make that very clear, I'm absolutely against creating unnecessary, time consuming, work and paper trails.

And the fact that these non-laws but often treated as such, standards/codes are not readily available but instead have to be bought for ridiculous amounts of money from a more or less de-facto monopolist who publishes them.

This is an animal that continuously feeds itself and is getting bigger each day.

And if you have read enough of them, you'll likely find out that some of them contradict others ...

I got an e-mail a few hours ago with current offers on newly published books on applicable standards/code related to electrical vehicles, charging systems ... This is the other side that makes money out of this. First you need the standards/code, and all the ones that are being quoted/linked, and then you need a book by "specialists" and highly regarded individuals, that haven't touched a tester or screwdriver in years (to stay with the electrical stuff), who will explain to "us" merely mortals what the standard/code actually really means.

Standardization itself is a great thing, but what is being made out of it ...

Just to explain myself a little more accurately. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #60 on: July 28, 2020, 05:24 AM »

Thats the best case scenario obviously. If you ask 10 people if they can provide this documentation, 0.25 will be able to hand you something.

Will most employees in larger companies know that when they bring their personal coffee maker, charging device or whatever, they should send a notice to maintenance and they will test it, and put a little sticker on it that says tested and when the next test should be performed. As they are reminded to do it by e-mail or during "work safety/accident prevention class" hold by the appointed occupational health and safety "officer"/appointee once a year.


Oliver, I think you should just ditch the idle chatter on Festoolownersgroup and engage in a 1000 page tome on the ins & outs of home inspections in Germany. If you focused on presenting that to the proper clientele you could make a million.  [big grin] [big grin]

I also love the 10 people statement...

I totally understand the frustration with the personal device thing, I believe it started when ISO was first established.

From an engineering perspective I understand the issue. You don't want engineers approving discrepant product based on non-certified measuring instruments. That's the reason personal measuring instruments must be verified every year and have a certified tag attached.

But coffee makers...really?

The funny part is, this is just one little part. And if I may say so, it's not exactly a highly complicated matter. If you want to know why they had all the trouble building that new BER airport. Look no further. There is a standard/code for everything. But if you don't have supervision, and don't give the people working for you the whole picture something grotesque like a fire proof/fire resistant wall being build from masonry instead of the required concrete, and wall plugs being used that are not suitable/rated to withstand fire happens. Or nylon wall plugs (for walls) being used to mount cable trays (holding critical infrastructure) to the ceiling that should have been mounted with anchors that are permitted to/ rated for hold/holding such a (pulling) load and also fire resistant. (....)

Speaking of the coffee maker, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. It's not like bringing "personal tools". It's a safety concern (electric shock, fire ...). At my old/former employer (formerly DAX noted) EVERYTHING electrical was tested and given the sticker if it passed. Chargers, coffee makers, extension cords, beamers, lights, stereos (...). They outsourced this to a maintenance service provider, and you would see tech guys and gals for a week or more straight going from office to office, cubicle to cubicle, tea kitchen ... testing everything, documenting it, putting a sticker on it. That was like one big Fluke advertising campaign. Everyone had the big appliance tester over their shoulder, and one of those yellow tool boxes with some basic tools and necessary adaptors, test leads ...

This will be getting bigger once they raise the number of available car chargers.

Once they were done, the next techie group came to check the fire detection system.

Then there was a tech team doing nothing else but bring people phones, switching/assigning numbers, keep the directory up to date.

And don't forget the team that tested/checked and put up the Christmas lighting.

I have no idea how this is handled in the US, but in Germany this type of industry/commercial service is booming. One company, teams for everything: service/maintenance related. From green keeping, to house keeping, security, maintenance. All having color coded/ in relation to the job, "uniforms". It's impressive, as they bring and maintain their own machinery as well, when they are contracted. This is one of these companies: https://www.wisag.de


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

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Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #61 on: July 28, 2020, 07:51 AM »
Just to put a "picture" to the book part.



Testing according to/ as set out by VDE in accordance with: Operational Safety Ordinance BetrSichV; Technical Regulations on Industrial Safety and Health TRBS; German Social Accident Insurance (DGUV) Instruction/Rule 3. <- That's the part about checking any and all electrical installations, appliances/ especially, but not limited to, tools used commercially and/or by employees

This book explains how to do it, it features excerpts from standards/code, but it's really just focussed from one viewpoint/ at one overall subject.


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #62 on: July 28, 2020, 03:37 PM »
But coffee makers...really?
I’ve worked in big Silicon Valley corporations for >25years. All have had rules prohibiting personal devices like coffee makers...and some actually have had enforcement (eg confiscating a tea kettle).

Right, the norm in any company is no bringing in of anything.  Inspection has nothing to do with it, they don't want anyone bringing any devices in period.  Even stuff bought/owned by the company is very limited, thus things like microwaves, and kettles get limited or removed.   They don't want items there that the company didn't bring in, and of that bought/provided by the company they want as minimal as possible.

Doesn't even apply to just electronics, but basically almost anything.  You bring yourself in and not much else.

On the flip side, if everyone gets sac'd that day, you don't have to grab anything.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2020, 04:21 AM »
"Once the inspector inspects and signs off on the work, the liability is on the town/city/county,"

I'm not sure that is true, at least here in NJ. And I base that on having taken the classes to become a code and sub-code official in NJ in 2010.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1980
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #64 on: August 06, 2020, 11:14 AM »
So anyone that was questioning the pull out force the wago 221’s can withstand...I can officially say it will not withstand a 50ft maple dropping on a light fixture.  Junction box got ripped clean off.  At that point the only thing holding the fixture up was the lever nuts and they let go!   [tongue] 

This storm did as much damage as Sandy, maybe worse.  The tree that did this moved my shed, damaged a corner of my roof and it’s still leaning against my shed so I can’t open the doors without doing more damage. 
-Raj

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1492
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2020, 11:45 AM »
Sorry to hear you have been hit by that storm, Raj!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 681
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2020, 04:39 PM »
Raj, what a pity!
I hope the tree will at least give you a couple of nice boards in return. ;)

I hope everyone is alright!

Kind regards
Uli

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 4063
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2020, 05:13 PM »
Sorry that you sustained damage, Raj.  Glad that this was all that happened and that you're OK.   [smile]
- Willy -

  "Show us a man who never makes a mistake and we will show a man who never makes anything. 
  The capacity for occasional blundering is inseparable from the capacity to bring things to pass."

 - Herman Lincoln Wayland (1830-1898)

Offline RKA

  • Posts: 1980
Re: Wago wire connector nuts
« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2020, 06:11 PM »
All living beings were spared.  I PM'd Oliver separately, but I was walking in and out of the side door to the garage (where this light fixture was) helping a neighbor with the generator.  When I finished, I turned to return to my house and found two trees down along the path between our houses.  So I'm lucky I get to be cranky about the cost of the damage rather than the alternative.  But as I said to Oliver, I'm not yet seeing the glass half full, I'm looking at the ding to the wallet! 

I'll use the wago connectors again when I get the light remounted.  But the junction box will be secured with longer screws!  [tongue]
-Raj