Author Topic: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps  (Read 9695 times)

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Offline extiger

  • Posts: 254
Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« on: February 10, 2012, 04:17 PM »
I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.

Gary Curtis  ---- Los Angeles

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Offline wooden

  • Posts: 319
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2012, 04:30 PM »
I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.

Gary Curtis  ---- Los Angeles


Only if the wire is 12 gauge or thicker.  If it is 14 gauge, it should have 15 amp or less protection.

Offline EWTHeckman

  • Posts: 289
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2012, 04:33 PM »
I want to buy an Espresso Machine that will pull 20 Amps, 110 v. When our kitchen was built in 1995 I planned for lots of circuits in the house, including 220v in the kitchen and multiple 110 circuits.

Can I upgrade one 15 Amp circuit only by installing a 20 Amp breaker and limiting it to one outlet? I don't want to pull new wires or be breaking out walls.

To be safe with a 20 amp circuit, you need to have 12 gauge wire or larger, even if there is only one outlet in the circuit.
Ed "What the" Heckman

Offline extiger

  • Posts: 254
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2012, 05:15 PM »
I'll check the wiring. If it is 14 gauge, it might be easer to tap into a 220v oven barely 3 feet away and pull the proper size wire through an appliance barn. It won't show, so I won't have to knock out paster walls.

All the wires come down from the ceiling. A junction box is up there connecting all of the front house circuits to the main electrical service panel at the far rear of the house. This will be done by a general contractor I've used before, so the only think Mickey Mouse about it will be my lame jokes.


Offline billg71

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Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2012, 06:08 PM »
Since the '70's the NEC has required at least one 20-amp small appliance circuit in the kitchen. Check your wire size to the outlet you want to use, it's probably a 12 gauge. If it is you can swap the breaker for a 20.

I wouldn't tap off the oven circuit, you'd probably trip the breaker if you ran the oven and a 20-amp coffee maker at the same time.

HTH,
Bill
"Born to fish, forced to work..."

Offline Sal LiVecchi

  • Posts: 1377
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2012, 06:12 PM »
I agree on the NEC Code from the 70's. My problem is how come there weren't 20 amp breakers by code then if it was in fact 12 gauge copper wire

I would make sure of the wire gauge for sure

Sal
Life is too short and the road is too long to drive anything less than a Festool

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2012, 06:23 PM »
I'll check the wiring. If it is 14 gauge, it might be easer to tap into a 220v oven barely 3 feet away and pull the proper size wire through an appliance barn. It won't show, so I won't have to knock out paster walls.

All the wires come down from the ceiling. A junction box is up there connecting all of the front house circuits to the main electrical service panel at the far rear of the house. This will be done by a general contractor I've used before, so the only think Mickey Mouse about it will be my lame jokes.


DO NOT TAP INTO THE OVEN WIRES!!!   Most oven will have a 30-40 amp breaker if you tap it,even with 12g that wire will not be protected!
The best thing to do is to run a new wire.  Use a 12g with a 20 amp breaker.If that expresso machine pulls 20 amp,you want a dedicated plug for it.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline extiger

  • Posts: 254
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2012, 06:25 PM »
I can remove the cover plates on a few plugs and if I'm lucky, the numbering on the wire would show. Does it matter if the wire is stranded or solid copper.

I think each of the garbage disposals are on individual circuits. Then there is the 220 for the wall ovens. And I believe everything else (excluding lights) are on two circuits. The refrigerator and counter plugs are on those two.

If I see the 12 gauge wire, I know how to change out a CB at the panel. Do I need to replace the plug with that T-shaped outlet for 20 Amps?


Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2012, 07:11 PM »
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom
« Last Edit: February 10, 2012, 07:53 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2012, 07:19 PM »
I totally respect your abilities, but I would advise that you get a licensed electrician to help you out.  A cup of coffee - no matter what brand / flavor - is not worth turning your house into a large toaster.

Peter

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2012, 09:02 PM »
I can remove the cover plates on a few plugs and if I'm lucky, the numbering on the wire would show. Does it matter if the wire is stranded or solid copper.
You shouldn't see standed wire on a regular outlet

I think each of the garbage disposals are on individual circuits. Then there is the 220 for the wall ovens. And I believe everything else (excluding lights) are on two circuits. The refrigerator and counter plugs are on those two.
How many disposal do you need?
If I see the 12 gauge wire, I know how to change out a CB at the panel. Do I need to replace the plug with that T-shaped outlet for 20 Amps?
If the breaker is 15 amps,most likely the wire is 14g.I don't know any electricians that would use 12g wire and hook up to a 15 amps breaker.
What would be the point?



I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6098
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2012, 11:08 PM »
To the OP, if your home is NM (Romex), the wires will not be labeled the jacket is.

Mastercabman,

There are 2 AHJ's here (Illinios not Indiana) that require a minimum 12ga. strained wire on all circuits in all dwellings. A 15 amp breaker is standard, 20 amps where required. 

Tom

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 3826
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2012, 07:52 AM »
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom

Concur 99%.  I would beg to differ on the receptacle to wiring gauge issue.  If you run 14 gauge wiring, the receptacles must be 15 amp, as should be the breaker.  No argument there.  If you run 12 gauge wiring you can use 15 or 20 amp rated receptacles, but the receptacle rating must match the breaker rating.  Example, you CAN use 15 amp receptacles on 12 gauge wiring, but you MUST use a 15 amp breaker to be consistent. 

 [smile]
- Willy -

 "Remember, a chip on the shoulder is a sure sign of wood higher up." - Brigham Young

Offline Jerry Sitton

  • Posts: 53
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2012, 08:19 AM »
If unsure how to see quickly, take a piece of 20g or 14g, if you have some, an compare to the wire in the receptacle or look at the wiring in the breaker box. Might be easier then fishing in the actual receptacle box.

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2012, 08:52 AM »

Mastercabman,

There are 2 AHJ's here (Illinios not Indiana) that require a minimum 12ga. strained wire on all circuits in all dwellings. A 15 amp breaker is standard, 20 amps where required. 

Tom

OK,But i think the OP is in California?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6098
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2012, 12:10 PM »
To start with absolutely DO NOT tap off the oven outlet. DO NOT install a 20 amp breaker unless it is 12 ga. wire.

You're in CA. their electrical code is the NEC with amendments.

NEC Article 210.11(C)(1) which governs the counter top small appliance receptacles was not in the code until the 1999 code cycle. In 1984 there was Article 220-3(B)(1) that require 2 -20 amp circuits in the dwelling unit, they were not specific to the small appliance receptacles.  

Unless amended by your Authority Having Jurisdiction, you do not have to install 20 amp receptacles on you a 20 amp circuit. CA has not amended Table 210.21(B()2). It allows 15 amp receptacles on a 20 amp circuit, not the other way around though.

Tom

Concur 99%.  I would beg to differ on the receptacle to wiring gauge issue.  If you run 14 gauge wiring, the receptacles must be 15 amp, as should be the breaker.  No argument there.  If you run 12 gauge wiring you can use 15 or 20 amp rated receptacles, but the receptacle rating must match the breaker rating.  Example, you CAN use 15 amp receptacles on 12 gauge wiring, but you MUST use a 15 amp breaker to be consistent. 

 [smile]


210.21(B)(3) clearly states on line 2- Circuit Rating (Amperes) 20---Receptacle Rating (Amperes) 15 OR 20. You can use a 15 amp rated receptacle on a 20 amp circuit per the NEC. Unless the AHJ has amended to code.

MCM,

Yes he is in Ca., just pointing out why an electrician would use 12 ga. on a 15 amp circuit.

Tom

Offline extiger

  • Posts: 254
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2012, 10:04 PM »
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2012, 07:35 AM »
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.

YES YOU ARE!   Good luck with it and enjoy the new coffee! ;)
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline greenMonster

  • Posts: 290
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2012, 12:19 PM »
So .... guess I'm the only curious one but, what kind of coffee maker is this?

Offline mastercabman

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  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2012, 12:59 PM »
So .... guess I'm the only curious one but, what kind of coffee maker is this?
It's most likely a built-in coffee machine
I have seen Bosch,Miele,Electrolux,Thermador.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2012, 06:05 PM »
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.

Not necessarily, if the manufacture instructions for the machine require a separate 20 amp circuit for their unit, you cannot use the existing. The manufactures instructions override the code requirements. The UL approval is dependent on their instructions being followed. The NEC requires all electrical items to be "listed", violate their instructions and it is no longer a listed item. Your insurance company may not cover a loss if it is caused by the machine being installed improperly.

Are the under cabinet lights wall switched? If so you would not want to use that wiring.

I don't mean to come off as an a$$, just don't want you to have an issue latter. 

Tom

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2012, 06:59 PM »
The Romex running to my undercabinet lights in the kitchen is 12 gauge. And in the service panel, there are 2 20-amp circuit breakers. This doesn't include the large 220v breaker for the oven. So, I am in business.

Not necessarily, if the manufacture instructions for the machine require a separate 20 amp circuit for their unit, you cannot use the existing. The manufactures instructions override the code requirements. The UL approval is dependent on their instructions being followed. The NEC requires all electrical items to be "listed", violate their instructions and it is no longer a listed item. Your insurance company may not cover a loss if it is caused by the machine being installed improperly.

Are the under cabinet lights wall switched? If so you would not want to use that wiring.

I don't mean to come off as an a$$, just don't want you to have an issue latter. 

Tom
You are right,most of those machine require to be on a single circuit.But we need to know for sure what kind of coffee machine he is dealling with.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline extiger

  • Posts: 254
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2012, 12:14 AM »
I think you are right about the need of the new machine being on a separate circuit. I'll have my contractor deal with it.

I went through this drill when I built a different house and my garage/shop posed a challenge because of my 5hp single phase tablesaw. At the time we simply allocated certain bench/wall sockets to specific breakers so we could isolate the electrical hogs. I had the circuit for the saw rated at 30 amps. I think it was 10 gauge wiring. In the end, the Baldor motor was rated at 19amps at startup. The machinery dealer told me he had never heard of an instance where that  motor would pop even a 20 amp breaker. The 30amp thing was just my ego talking. Which befuddled my contractor.

The new espresso  machine hasn't been chosen. But it will be one of those Italian jobs costing over $1000. With dual boilers they draw slightly more than 2000 watts.

Offline denovich

  • Posts: 37
Re: Upgrading Kitchen Elec to 20 Amps
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2012, 12:21 PM »
Espresso: Have a look at the *gasp* Australian-designed Breville.  http://www.brevilleusa.com/beverages/espresso.html   I have what was previously their top of the line machine, the 860XL.  It's an excellent machine.  I've run about 50lbs of beans through it in the last few months and have had zero issues.  It pulls a lovely shot.  Their new dual boiler machine looks even better.  I suspect it's the best machine under $2k on the market.  It would be very nice being able to brew & steam at the same time.  I have a few of their other appliances and have been extremely pleased with them. 

(FWIW: I am a coffee snob (I've roasted my own beans, mod'd my coffee makers with PID temperature controllers, etc), I was into molecular gastronomy and sous-vide cooking before it was cool, but my tastes are not overbearingly snobby (some things can be "good enough")  So take my opinion with the appropriate amount of salt (I'd recommend a nice Fleur de Sel.))