Author Topic: Process32 (17.4mm ply)  (Read 1283 times)

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Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« on: August 14, 2020, 06:09 PM »
Hi All,
Long time lurker here. I'm planning on doing some kitchen cabinets for my house and through FOG, found the Process32 guide from Blum, which really made the decision easier. I've never worked within this system, so I'm trying to wrap my head around it. I noticed that the B/BB Russian Birch I get from my supplier is actually 17.4mm instead of 19mm. What's the best way to adjust for this within the process 32? I have a few options I thought of....

1) No adjustment, first hole 46.5 from bottom and the lower 563H still uses the bottom hole and just offset by like .8mm. I assume this would just result in a larger reveal on the bottom.

2) Adjust 46.5mm offset for first hole to ~45.5mm but would end up with the top reveal being 1mm larger instead

3) Do a full width bottom and have the sides resting on top of the bottom plate, do the first hole at 37mm. Issue here is top and mid rails would be different width than bottom making the process just that much more annoying to keep track of and the first hole seems a bit high?

4) Stop overthinking 1mm and just build them dummy :-)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2020, 10:39 PM by Mandrewbot3k »

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Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2020, 04:37 AM »
UPDATE:
I realize now this was a silly question and I'm just going to start the holes at 46.5mm as specified by Process32, with no adjustments needed. DOH


Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2020, 06:39 AM »
Make a practice box first. It might change your opinion on process 32. It did for me when I realized how easy it was to make mistakes with unbalanced panels.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2020, 12:46 PM »
Make a practice box first. It might change your opinion on process 32. It did for me when I realized how easy it was to make mistakes with unbalanced panels.

I'm planning on it when it's not 105 and 75% humidity in my garage. lol. I've looked at a couple of systems like the KISS as well, but t landed on the process32 because I plan on using the BLUM tandem undermount slides (563H5330B), which appears to work only on unbalanced. I've got three kids (7/5/2) so I only get a few hours at a time if that when I'm working on stuff so I need to be efficient. Plan is to make all the sides and kinda flat pack them for now until I'm ready to assemble/install. Going to use 5mm dominos with screws for fastening.

Definitely just trying a work flow. I'd be interested recommendations for a balanced system if they had comparable hardware to the BLUM, but my local supplier has all the BLUM stuff and it sure seems convenient. I've read Dave Lers page and just ordered Danny Proulx's book as well.

Planning on all unfinished baltic birch for the quality cores, but might switch to prefinished maple or white birch for convenience. Instead of needing to shoot the cabinets in my garage.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2020, 01:06 PM »
@Mandrewbot3k

Also a dad of young children.

If time is a consideration (which it is), skip the unfinished ply. Go straight to pre-finished two sides for your 1/2" (assumption) drawer sides and pre-finished 1 side 1/4" for your drawer bottoms and cabinet backs. Pre-finished 1 or 2 sides for 3/4" carcass. You will be cursing yourself if you have to finish all those materials yourself. The cost isn't all that different if you go through a distributor. I think it's actually more expensive to get baltic birch.

Why do you think you need to use Process 32 for Blum hardware? I just built 5 frameless base cabinets using Tandem slides and hinges. I set my sides to multiples of 32 and off I went. The Process 32 is more for production shops that want to squeeze every last millimeter out of the box.

Good luck. Here's a copy of the thread I started for my project: Home Office Remodel

Matt
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2020, 01:14 PM »
@Mandrewbot3k

Also a dad of young children.

If time is a consideration (which it is), skip the unfinished ply. Go straight to pre-finished two sides for your 1/2" (assumption) drawer sides and pre-finished 1 side 1/4" for your drawer bottoms and cabinet backs. Pre-finished 1 or 2 sides for 3/4" carcass. You will be cursing yourself if you have to finish all those materials yourself. The cost isn't all that different if you go through a distributor. I think it's actually more expensive to get baltic birch.

Why do you think you need to use Process 32 for Blum hardware? I just built 5 frameless base cabinets using Tandem slides and hinges. I set my sides to multiples of 32 and off I went. The Process 32 is more for production shops that want to squeeze every last millimeter out of the box.

Good luck. Here's a copy of the thread I started for my project: Home Office Remodel

Matt

Was leaning toward the Baltic because the core is so much nicer than the prefinished. But definitely more work to finish. I usually use Odie's oil for all my finishing, but not really an option here unless I prefinish all my sheetgoods before I start breaking them down. I have a few HVLP guns, but yeah seems like an issue. I'll definitely price out the prefinished with my local suppliers and just compromise a little on the core. I wanna say prefinished white is like $80-100 for a 4x8 of the 3/4" and my russian birch was $50.

Definitely going prefinished for the drawers. My supplier has birch with either edge banding or birch with exposed edge and a dado for about $11-15/drawer. Planning on using sipo dominos.

Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what balanced is, I thought it was same distance holes edge to edge on both sides. The tandems have specific requirements for the spacing that doesn't lend toward that.

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2020, 01:15 PM »
And I'm starting to realize that the 17.4mm ply is probably just 18mm with the tolerances. The russian birch manufacturer is Sveva.

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2020, 01:26 PM »
What is it about the Tandem slides that doesn't lend to balanced panels?

When you go unbalanced (i.e. Process 32) you have to make "Left" and "Right" panels since your hole offsets are not the same top/bottom. The front to back hole spacing (for the Tandem slides, for example) is the same in either unbalanced or balanced panels. If you don't worry about setting your drawer slides perfectly on the bottom of the carcass then you can use any hole you want to start. Do them every 16mm instead of every 32mm for more options. You might have to do a little math for the drawers and doors but at least you aren't fixed to their sizes. I really wanted to use the Process 32 but it became apparent to me that it wasn't going to be a good fit after I made my test box. It may be perfect for you though. I know Guy Dunlap used it for his kitchen.

Matt
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2020, 08:52 PM »
What is it about the Tandem slides that doesn't lend to balanced panels?

When you go unbalanced (i.e. Process 32) you have to make "Left" and "Right" panels since your hole offsets are not the same top/bottom. The front to back hole spacing (for the Tandem slides, for example) is the same in either unbalanced or balanced panels. If you don't worry about setting your drawer slides perfectly on the bottom of the carcass then you can use any hole you want to start. Do them every 16mm instead of every 32mm for more options. You might have to do a little math for the drawers and doors but at least you aren't fixed to their sizes. I really wanted to use the Process 32 but it became apparent to me that it wasn't going to be a good fit after I made my test box. It may be perfect for you though. I know Guy Dunlap used it for his kitchen.

Matt

Hmmm... Maybe I have a different understanding of what balanced means (which is probably a misunderstanding, lol). I thought it was top/bottom AND front/back, so you could rotate it either way on either side. But I assume what you're saying is I could start at say 51.5 from both ends instead of 16.5/and56.5 like process 32. And with a dado you're still making a front back, but not a left/right.



Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2020, 09:27 PM »
I think you're starting to get it. If your first hole is the same distance top and bottom the panel is balanced and can be a left or a right. Much easier to deal with. The front to back set backs are identical in either situation.

Keep in mind the 32mm system was developed so you could bore your holes at say 37, 261, etc and use any manufacturers hardware. There is nothing unique about Tandem slides other than their specific drawer construction.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2020, 10:07 PM »
Yeah, I was actually a little confused why in the process32 it started off at 46.5 because it appears (without having one in front of me) that the bottom one would just use the top hole to mount instead. But wasn’t sure how that impacted everything else.

Because of the process I was planning I might just stick with the unbalanced. Only because I plan on making the 6 rights at once and then the 6 lefts.

Planning to domino and screw with 1.5” screws as well. Don’t think it’s worth me spending the $400 on the df500 connector kit. Though it’s tempting.


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Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 66
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2020, 07:53 AM »
As someone who has made dozens of kitchens and hundreds of different cabinets over the past decade, let me just add that you can use the tandem slides no matter what system you use. The 32 mm system is great and can be very efficient at using material, but it can also be very unforgiving to mistakes and it it is easy to loose track of you layout with unbalanced panels. Getting a good workflow and staying organized is key to making it work and not getting off track on a big project.

Also a big second on using prefinished materials as much as possible. It is no fun to spray the inside of a box. It is hard to manuvure the gun in there and get all spots without standing on your head. Plus you are in a house with kids, you don't need the fumes or overspray. 80%of your time on the project will be devoted to the finishing.

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2020, 01:39 PM »
As someone who has made dozens of kitchens and hundreds of different cabinets over the past decade, let me just add that you can use the tandem slides no matter what system you use. The 32 mm system is great and can be very efficient at using material, but it can also be very unforgiving to mistakes and it it is easy to loose track of you layout with unbalanced panels. Getting a good workflow and staying organized is key to making it work and not getting off track on a big project.

Also a big second on using prefinished materials as much as possible. It is no fun to spray the inside of a box. It is hard to manuvure the gun in there and get all spots without standing on your head. Plus you are in a house with kids, you don't need the fumes or overspray. 80%of your time on the project will be devoted to the finishing.

Thanks for the input.

One thing confusing with the 32mm system and those slides, is that they say for the full load rating you need to use like 5-6 screws. So I guess even with the predrilled holes there, you're still doing extra drilling which makes me wonder if drilling all the holes is worth the effort at all, or if I should just use spacers. My buddy has a laser cutter, so I though about having him cut me a full sized 24x30.5 sheet with just the holes I need in it already so I can just blow and go and won't need to buy any extra jigs for hole drilling. The beauty of the 32mm is in the concept anyway, not necessarily the holes. 

I'm also now torn on the movento vs tandem, because theyre about an $8 difference and the movento seems newer and has higher standard load rating. any thoughts on that?

I definitely think I'm going prefinished. I THINK I can get it with a 13 ply core, but it'll cost, but likely worth it. Otherwise I know I can get the 7? ply in maple or birch B/BB for about $80/ 4x8. I wanna say the A/C grade prefin maple was like $110.


Offline MaineShop

  • Posts: 66
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2020, 10:32 PM »
First in regards to the hole I really never put more then three screws in a slide, lots of times just two. if you build the drawer right then you are relying on the sheer strength of that screw not necessarily the pull out strength. knock on wood but never has a customer call me about a drawer collapsing. I mostly use the tandem's and I find those are the standard for custom work in my area. for most jobs we are ordering in 50 or so slides at a time so like 6 boxes. Have used a mountain of them over the years and I have nothing but good things to say about them. Also used a lot of Grass and liked them as well.

I would say save the money on your choices of plywood for the case. No real need to use the nice thirteen ply Baltic birch on your cabinet case. Very much worth it on your drawers but a decent 7 ply with a good veneer is usually fine for the carcass. When I am looking at sheet goods for the case I am more looking to make sure it isn't full of voids and that the veneer is solid enough and that there are no internal seams that are protruding to the face. Other then that most sheet goods will work from a structural aspect, not really in need of the extra strength that Baltic birch offers, and not really worth the added price. I use a lot of 4x8 pre-finished in my shop that is around that 100 a sheet price, I think it is mostly a/c stuff. I use a lot of the 5x5 baltic birch for drawer parts and occasional elements where strength is needed.

In terms of drawer weight, I think the standard tandem slide is like 75lbs. and you can get them with the 100lb rating. Not sure how big your drawers are but it takes quite a bit even with a pots and pans drawer to surpase that. I have only used heavier on trash slide outs.

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2020, 02:19 AM »
Thanks for the info Maine.

I definitely plan on using the prefinished BB for the drawers. Not sure if I'm gonna go edge banded or just a radius top though. My locals have them already prefinished and cut, but only in 1/2". I may go up to 5/8 for the 30" wide drawers.

Mostly plan on 1/2 with 1/4 bottoms for anything 253mm or smaller than go up to 5/8" with 1/2 rabbeted for the bigger/deeper drawers that'll be housing the bigger stuff.

I think i'll end up at my local shop this week, so I'll check what they have for slides, but I think it's all tandems. Will probably grab a few to check out (and prove to my wife that making them will be fine, she doesn't have the confidence I do, lol).

Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2020, 09:53 AM »
@MaineShop Is giving some sage advice.

@Mandrewbot3k
I stressed over plywood for months before starting on my office. I thought I'd use Baltic Birch for strength and how nice it is. I went in sight unseen ordering the C2 PureBond from Columbia Forest Products after talking with my supplier. It's really nice and I didn't have any issues with it whatsoever. Looks like I paid $95/sheet 4x8 for 2 sides prefinished White Maple veneer core. It didn't have the football patches you commonly see with material of that grade.

I made a test box so I could make most of (not all of) my mistakes figuring out the Tandem slides before going into production mode. Having done 8 drawers now I think I have it figured out. The back rebate doesn't have to be precise. I used a jigsaw and reference marks. No one is going to see it. I originally bought the Blum drilling jig and it works but for how expensive it is I recommend getting the Rockler Tandem jig instead. I wish I'd known about it before buying the Blum version.

Matt
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2020, 11:58 AM »
@MaineShop Is giving some sage advice.

@Mandrewbot3k
I stressed over plywood for months before starting on my office. I thought I'd use Baltic Birch for strength and how nice it is. I went in sight unseen ordering the C2 PureBond from Columbia Forest Products after talking with my supplier. It's really nice and I didn't have any issues with it whatsoever. Looks like I paid $95/sheet 4x8 for 2 sides prefinished White Maple veneer core. It didn't have the football patches you commonly see with material of that grade.

I made a test box so I could make most of (not all of) my mistakes figuring out the Tandem slides before going into production mode. Having done 8 drawers now I think I have it figured out. The back rebate doesn't have to be precise. I used a jigsaw and reference marks. No one is going to see it. I originally bought the Blum drilling jig and it works but for how expensive it is I recommend getting the Rockler Tandem jig instead. I wish I'd known about it before buying the Blum version.

Matt

Thanks Matt, appreciate your help. I have a sheet of baltic broken down and was thinking of making just a small test box with a drawer. I did plan on buying the Rockler jig once I saw it existed, heh. I also have a 3D printer, so in theory, could print my own, but I'm likely too lazy for that. lol.

Did you rough up the prefinished for glue? That was one concern I had, but was thinking of just using 5mm dominos and some 1 1/2" screws.


Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 791
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2020, 12:17 PM »
No glue here. Domino's and screws.
Instagram @matts.garage

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2020, 12:40 PM »
If you want a little more security you can scuff up the joint area of prefinished ply with 80 grip paper. It won’t be as strong as a full wood to wood joint but it does make a difference.

Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2020, 12:44 PM »
If you want a little more security you can scuff up the joint area of prefinished ply with 80 grip paper. It won’t be as strong as a full wood to wood joint but it does make a difference.

Thats what I was thinking. I do have a 1/2" file sander which I think would make pretty quick work of it. Might just do it around the dominos and let the glue from the joint squish out. instead of going full length.

Offline Rick Herrick

  • Posts: 348
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #20 on: August 17, 2020, 02:29 PM »
Check out this video.  This gentleman has a nice trick for scuffing up pre-finished.  8 minutes into the video.


Offline Mandrewbot3k

  • Posts: 20
Re: Process32 (17.4mm ply)
« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2020, 02:47 PM »
Check out this video.  This gentleman has a nice trick for scuffing up pre-finished.  8 minutes into the video.


Oh my. Now I feel stupid for even suggesting using my file sander. I’m pretty sure he did that faster than I could’ve.  Lol. Thanks for the share.


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« Last Edit: August 17, 2020, 04:32 PM by Mandrewbot3k »