Author Topic: Pantry cabinet concern  (Read 26585 times)

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Pantry cabinet concern
« on: October 19, 2013, 08:34 PM »
Designer decided to make last minute change of pantry cabinet on kitchen I'm building. I'm okay with changes but I'm having trouble or concerns about this one.
  Pantry cabinet is to be 40"w x 96"h x 32"d....she wants no toe kick and cabinet floor, so the wood flooring through out the house continues into pantry. Idea is h/o can slide bulky items right in under bottom shelf, and also be able to step into pantry while getting items on upper shelves. It's more like a pantry closet, I guess. Designer supplied me with a picture of similar idea and said she had done it on a previous remodel. Here are pics she sent.
 



I'm having concerns about the doors. Our doors have to swing out. Obviously the two lower doors have to be tall enough for a person to "step into" pantry. 80" tall would match existing interior doors. Cabinetry is full inset shaker style doors. My original plan was to go 1" thick on pantry doors for added strength. I'm concerned about when doors are closed....the doors will only strike on top rail while bottoms are essentially floating because no cabinet floor to stop against. I cannot use any threshold or floor stop because that would impede on "sliding bulky items in". What's going to keep doors aligned with each other or even possibly warping?  Only idea I had was to bore earth magnets in edge of each door near bottom, and hopefully they are strong enough. Not feeling to confident on that idea. I can't use an astragal either , they don't want the active & passive door thing. Any suggestions? Or am I over thinking this?  Any ideas would be great....thx


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Offline builderbob

  • Posts: 1365
    • RJP Remodeling
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2013, 08:49 PM »
I would have the same concerns!  Any typical snap shut hinge is going to want to close past 0 causing resistance where there's no stop on the bottom. It would seem wiser if it was a cabinet with a bottom and say furniture base and a platform would be created to stand on and allow your doors to close against. I realize that creates a situation where bulky items have to be lifted. I'd rather have the lift than the potential problem that will be created with the doors.

I'll put some further thought into that!
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Offline Tim Raleigh

  • Posts: 3560
    • Oakville Cabinetry
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2013, 09:07 PM »
I have similar situation in my house although the doors are regular thickness doors. My doors meet in the middle and there is only a stop on the sides and top, they work fine. I wouldn't trust 1" panels that size to stay flat either. To make sure the doors stay flat, either make or use a well made solid core door with a shaker profile or use hollow core panel and apply the shaker profile to them.

It does take more time to line the doors up so they meet properly but it shouldn't be a problem until little Johnny rides into them with his push car.

Tim

Offline ccmviking

  • Posts: 411
    • Blue River Cabinetry Kitchen and Bath
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 09:18 PM »
I would probably add a ball spring and catch between the doors near the bottom so at least both doors latch together for alignment.


http://www.myknobs.com/bal0425150.html?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=myknobs&gclid=COTb0f2epLoCFWfhQgodbxgAnA

Chris...

Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 09:49 PM »
I would probably add a ball spring and catch between the doors near the bottom so at least both doors latch together for alignment.


http://www.myknobs.com/bal0425150.html?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=myknobs&gclid=COTb0f2epLoCFWfhQgodbxgAnA

Chris...

Thanks Chris, I've been looking for those for my pantry doors.
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 10:02 PM »
I have done a few of those.
It was years ago and I had to work with factory cabinet parts.
The design was to create a pantry access from the kitchen(pantry room was behind the kitchen with a doorway)
So I had to be creative and used refrigerator panels with a 1.5" stile and mount cabinet doors.
But I reinforced it with a piece of 3/4" finished ply and edge tape to match the cabinets.
The plywood was set so that it was flush with the face frame.
The opening was about 36" wide x80" tall
It worked and never had a call back.
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2013, 10:43 PM »
Use self closing hinges for the top 3, free swing hinges for the bottom 2.

Make the doors tall enough so the ball catch plates can be let into the floor, the ball into the bottom of the door.

Get a sheet of 1/2" particle board. Build it up to the size you need with your face wood. Google stave core rails and styles and you'll see what I mean.

Tom

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 11:51 PM »

Make the doors tall enough so the ball catch plates can be let into the floor, the ball into the bottom of the door.


Why use a ball catch?
Isn't the ball going to scrap the floor?
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 12:01 AM »
I would have the same concerns!  Any typical snap shut hinge is going to want to close past 0 causing resistance where there's no stop on the bottom. It would seem wiser if it was a cabinet with a bottom and say furniture base and a platform would be created to stand on and allow your doors to close against. I realize that creates a situation where bulky items have to be lifted. I'd rather have the lift than the potential problem that will be created with the doors.

I'll put some further thought into that!
I thought about the typical snap hinge shutting past 0*... I planned on using Soss hinges which I've been super happy with in the past, but again I'm not positive it would solve issue.




Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 12:04 AM »
Mine are in the top of each door, floor is tile.
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 12:12 AM »

Make the doors tall enough so the ball catch plates can be let into the floor, the ball into the bottom of the door.


Why use a ball catch?
Isn't the ball going to scrap the floor?


You may be correct about this. Then again they want to "slide heavy items across the floor".

Most of the ball catches have very smooth balls, I'm not sure they'd scratch the floor. They could be adjusted "soft".

Tom

Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 12:15 AM »

These are my doors
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 12:22 AM »

Make the doors tall enough so the ball catch plates can be let into the floor, the ball into the bottom of the door.


Why use a ball catch?
Isn't the ball going to scrap the floor?


You may be correct about this. Then again they want to "slide heavy items across the floor".

Most of the ball catches have very smooth balls, I'm not sure they'd scratch the floor. They could be adjusted "soft".

Tom
Right,but opening the doors over and over is going to put a mark.
The ball might be smooth but it will "drag" and if the floor is uneven it might make it worse
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 12:31 AM »
A couple things to note in the pictures provided by the designer...... the two arrangements shown are different than what is being asked for.  The first pic of the pantry has doors swinging in and there is either something funky with the picture or the walk in is much more than 32" deep pantry. The second picture  the cubby/ bench  supports the bottom.

I am sure it can be done but talk about wasting storage/ floor space.  Why not just make it a 16" deep (or whatever) cabinet with regular doors and shorter bottom doors to slide heavy stuff into. If the slide in items are much deeper than the shelves then no one can  step into it anyway because the stuff on the floor will be in the way.  What a nuisance to have to move the floor items every time you need to reach for something on a shelf.  Perhaps that should be pointed out to the designer and home owner.

At 32" deep I would be inclined to make  deep drawers and pantry  pullouts etc. Using as much space as possible for storage and gaining complete access.  The bottom could still be  short cabinet doors  or a single door allowing floor space to slide things in.

OR a regular closet door since the flooring continues in like it would in a closet.

Seth


Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2013, 01:47 AM »
A couple things to note in the pictures provided by the designer...... the two arrangements shown are different than what is being asked for.  The first pic of the pantry has doors swinging in and there is either something funky with the picture or the walk in is much more than 32" deep pantry. The second picture  the cubby/ bench  supports the bottom.

I am sure it can be done but talk about wasting storage/ floor space.  Why not just make it a 16" deep (or whatever) cabinet with regular doors and shorter bottom doors to slide heavy stuff into. If the slide in items are much deeper than the shelves then no one can  step into it anyway because the stuff on the floor will be in the way.  What a nuisance to have to move the floor items every time you need to reach for something on a shelf.  Perhaps that should be pointed out to the designer and home owner.

At 32" deep I would be inclined to make  deep drawers and pantry  pullouts etc. Using as much space as possible for storage and gaining complete access.  The bottom could still be  short cabinet doors  or a single door allowing floor space to slide things in.

OR a regular closet door since the flooring continues in like it would in a closet.

Seth


Yup, the pics are not accurate. I noticed the same details you pointed out. And I completely agree that the design is not the most functional and doesn't maximize storage. I'm not sure what to do now....

Offline mastercabman

  • Posts: 1854
  • NORFOLK,VA
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2013, 09:20 AM »
A couple things to note in the pictures provided by the designer...... the two arrangements shown are different than what is being asked for.  The first pic of the pantry has doors swinging in and there is either something funky with the picture or the walk in is much more than 32" deep pantry. The second picture  the cubby/ bench  supports the bottom.

I am sure it can be done but talk about wasting storage/ floor space.  Why not just make it a 16" deep (or whatever) cabinet with regular doors and shorter bottom doors to slide heavy stuff into. If the slide in items are much deeper than the shelves then no one can  step into it anyway because the stuff on the floor will be in the way.  What a nuisance to have to move the floor items every time you need to reach for something on a shelf.  Perhaps that should be pointed out to the designer and home owner.

At 32" deep I would be inclined to make  deep drawers and pantry  pullouts etc. Using as much space as possible for storage and gaining complete access.  The bottom could still be  short cabinet doors  or a single door allowing floor space to slide things in.

OR a regular closet door since the flooring continues in like it would in a closet.

Seth


I think we need to understand is that those pictures are just examples of what he is talking about.
I believe that the homeowner just wants a clean/clear continuous floor path just like a regular closet but to match the cabinetry.
I think he will be ok to make the doors 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" thick
And if he gets the right hinges,he can do some adjustment to make sure that the doors stays flush with each other.
I have done maybe 7-8 or maybe 9 of those pantry doors and I end up using BLUM  standard cabinet hinges(6 per doors)
I don't understand!?! I keep cutting it,and it's still too short!

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2013, 10:22 AM »
A couple things to note in the pictures provided by the designer...... the two arrangements shown are different than what is being asked for.  The first pic of the pantry has doors swinging in and there is either something funky with the picture or the walk in is much more than 32" deep pantry. The second picture  the cubby/ bench  supports the bottom.

I am sure it can be done but talk about wasting storage/ floor space.  Why not just make it a 16" deep (or whatever) cabinet with regular doors and shorter bottom doors to slide heavy stuff into. If the slide in items are much deeper than the shelves then no one can  step into it anyway because the stuff on the floor will be in the way.  What a nuisance to have to move the floor items every time you need to reach for something on a shelf.  Perhaps that should be pointed out to the designer and home owner.

At 32" deep I would be inclined to make  deep drawers and pantry  pullouts etc. Using as much space as possible for storage and gaining complete access.  The bottom could still be  short cabinet doors  or a single door allowing floor space to slide things in.

OR a regular closet door since the flooring continues in like it would in a closet.

Seth


I think we need to understand is that those pictures are just examples of what he is talking about.
I believe that the homeowner just wants a clean/clear continuous floor path just like a regular closet but to match the cabinetry.
I think he will be ok to make the doors 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" thick
And if he gets the right hinges,he can do some adjustment to make sure that the doors stays flush with each other.
I have done maybe 7-8 or maybe 9 of those pantry doors and I end up using BLUM  standard cabinet hinges(6 per doors)

I wish the hinges had some load specs, I'm doing a pantry soon that will also have storage on the inside of the doors and would rather not just guess on how many hinges to use.
+1

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2013, 10:59 AM »
Doesn't Blum have specs and recommendations on their website?  Most do.

Peter

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2013, 11:01 AM »
Page 2 of the Clip Top Concealed Hinge guide has a load chart. There are other guides that may have the information.

http://www.blum.com/us/en/02/90/

Tom

Offline Paul G

  • Posts: 1986
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2013, 11:30 AM »
That's what I get for listening to the guy at Woodcraft lol
+1

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2013, 11:33 AM »
That's what I get for listening to the guy at Woodcraft lol

I bought a package of Blum hinges at Woodcraft once, it had the installation instructions in the package along with the load chart. Tells you what the sales person knows.

Tom

Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2013, 02:37 PM »
A couple things to note in the pictures provided by the designer...... the two arrangements shown are different than what is being asked for.  The first pic of the pantry has doors swinging in and there is either something funky with the picture or the walk in is much more than 32" deep pantry. The second picture  the cubby/ bench  supports the bottom.

I am sure it can be done but talk about wasting storage/ floor space.  Why not just make it a 16" deep (or whatever) cabinet with regular doors and shorter bottom doors to slide heavy stuff into. If the slide in items are much deeper than the shelves then no one can  step into it anyway because the stuff on the floor will be in the way.  What a nuisance to have to move the floor items every time you need to reach for something on a shelf.  Perhaps that should be pointed out to the designer and home owner.

At 32" deep I would be inclined to make  deep drawers and pantry  pullouts etc. Using as much space as possible for storage and gaining complete access.  The bottom could still be  short cabinet doors  or a single door allowing floor space to slide things in.

OR a regular closet door since the flooring continues in like it would in a closet.

Seth


I think we need to understand is that those pictures are just examples of what he is talking about.
I believe that the homeowner just wants a clean/clear continuous floor path just like a regular closet but to match the cabinetry.
I think he will be ok to make the doors 1 1/4" - 1 1/2" thick
And if he gets the right hinges,he can do some adjustment to make sure that the doors stays flush with each other.
I have done maybe 7-8 or maybe 9 of those pantry doors and I end up using BLUM  standard cabinet hinges(6 per doors)
Mastercabman , thank you for clarifying the situation, I'm not sure I describe it correctly . "I believe that the homeowner just wants a clean/clear continuous floor path just like a regular closet but to match the cabinetry" is a perfect description . I also think your correct in going with 1 1/4- 1 1/2" thick doors. I'm building it later this week and I will share how it's going. Now I'm moving on how thick side walls should be to support weight of doors and best way to fasten bottom of walls without visible fasteners or trim(shoe,qtr round,etc."

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2013, 04:42 PM »
You'll probably find out the cabinet style door weighs less than a 6 panel door. Unless you install glass, I bet these doors don't weigh more than 20 pounds. They're Shaker style, the center panel could be 1/4" ply. Again I'd stave core the rails and styles.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6163
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2013, 04:46 PM »
These doors are "Shaker" style. They're 26"x80", 1-1/16x4.5" rails and styles 1/2" center panel. I didn't weigh them but I'll bet less than 30 pounds.

https://picasaweb.google.com/tbadernwi/CSAP

Tom

Offline Michael Garrett

  • Posts: 410
Re: Pantry cabinet concern
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2013, 04:51 PM »
My pantry inside dimensions are 96"H x 32"D x 60"W with 2 -1 3/4" solid doors w/glass panel 24"W x 80"H.
CT 26 HEPA, MFT/3 (2), TS 75 EQ, OF 1400 EQ,  DF 500 SET, CXS SET, C 15+3 SET, Ti-15 Basic, CENTROTEC INSTALLER SET 98-PC, TRADESMAN/INSTALLER CLEANING SET, DOMINO ASSORTMENT SYSTEM, LR 32 HOLE DRILLING SET, GUIDE RAIL FS 3000 (1), GUIDE RAIL ACCESSORY KIT, GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1900/2  (2), GUIDE RAIL FS 1400/2 LR 32  (1), Veritas MFT Clamping Kit,  Imperial & Metric Zorbo Forstner Bit Sets, RO 90, ETS 150/3, PSB 420 EBQ w/Accessory Kit, WCR-1000, PARALLEL GUIDE SET, CT 26 BOOM ARM SET, Veritas® Drilling Kit, MFK 700 EQ Router Set