Author Topic: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use  (Read 1962 times)

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Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« on: May 28, 2020, 01:02 PM »
So I'm looking at doing some scraping of paint on an exterior which likely has lead (I haven't tested yet).   Only looking to remove loose stuff, not do a total strip.

I have one of those vacuum friendly scrapers where the handle is hollow and can be hooked up to a vac.  As I have read, these are approved for dry scraping lead based paint.

I have a Fein Turbo w/ a hepa filter which I also use for sanding and drilling dust collection. I usually do general cleanup w/ a rigid vac that has an aftermarket filter.

My plan was to use the Fein vac w/ the vacuum scraper to take off the loose paint and control the dust.  But one thing that I get a little mixed up by is this: if I use the vac for lead, is it now considered 'contaminated' and should be dedicated to that?   Or is it sufficient to keep the filter in, dispose of the bag, and clean the vac off?

Same question would apply, I guess, to a festool sander.  Is it considered 'lead only' if used for lead paint?  Or does it just need to be cleaned?


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Offline Rob Z

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2020, 01:18 PM »
Hello

I was an early participant in the EPA  RRP certification program and at that time, the training said "YES" to your various questions about contamination of equipment and thus the need for dedicated lead remediation  tools.  With that said, that was years ago and things might have changed.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2020, 05:42 PM »
Thanks for your response, @RobZ. That's what I've found in some of the RRP literature online.

I'd guess some of the rules are also about reducing liability and perhaps avoiding the chance of someone not cleaning the machine sufficiently if switching uses.

But then,I remember reading elsewhere about a rule that suggested continuing to use the hepa filter for at least 3 vacuum bags of non-lead debris after doing any lead work.  Maybe that was a dream? 

Unfortunately, the paint contractors I've consulted are either 1) affordable but seem to think an attached dust filter on the sander is enough or 2) only interested in doing a full strip, restore, and repaint at a significant premium. 

Offline Rob Z

  • Posts: 993
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2020, 01:27 AM »
I don't recall anything being said about using a HEPA filter for some number of bags after doing lead work.

And my observation was almost all prospective customers wanted nothing to do with the RRP forms or paying for any work that was needed to comply with EPA requirements.  And the local building officials didn't care one bit about any of this, although they did have the EPA boilerplate on permit documents and other official forms. It was enormously frustrating.

I figure I lost a good deal of money, between paying for the training classes (which were a waste of time), HEPA vacs (this was before Festool certified theirs as HEPA), license fees to EPA, etc.



But then,I remember reading elsewhere about a rule that suggested continuing to use the hepa filter for at least 3 vacuum bags of non-lead debris after doing any lead work.

Unfortunately, the paint contractors I've consulted are either 1) affordable but seem to think an attached dust filter on the sander is enough or 2) only interested in doing a full strip, restore, and repaint at a significant premium.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2020, 12:16 PM »
I can't find that information anymore (or maybe i never did?).   I thought it was something to do w/ avoiding spreading residual lead dust after the fact - making sure that someone didn't pull the hepa filter after RRP work and just run the vacuum w/ less filtration.

At any rate, I'm only concerned with this from a safety perspective as it relates to expecting mom or newborn child (and myself, too, as I live there).  I think I'm generally able to discern risk pretty well, but when it comes to the safety of others I am a lot more cautious.

I guess that worst case, I could buy one of those cheaper vacmasters (they claim to be good to go for RRP) and lose it when done (I really don't have room for another vacuum). But it seems like I should be able to deep clean the Fein once done w/ the work and minimize the risk?


Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 110
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2020, 12:36 PM »
I don't mean to change the subject too much, but the scraper is really the weak link here. I've spent a lot of time behind one and it really doesn't catch that much, especially fine debris.

Offline mrFinpgh

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2020, 12:56 PM »
The vacuum attached one?   I had read they were good.  Didn't know they weren't effective.

Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 110
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2020, 01:38 PM »
The vacuum attached one?   I had read they were good.  Didn't know they weren't effective.

Yeah, I think the ones we used to use were called viper, but I can't remember. They're great for not having to clean up/handle a bunch of lead paint chips. If you're doing a lot of scraping you will still get covered in dust.

This is just my experience. We used the Fein extractors, which are pretty nice, but after scraping there was always a layer of paint dust on my glasses. I don't know how much lead dust is too much lead dust, but none sounds like the right amount to me. I'm just saying, take all the precautions you would if there wasn't a vacuum attached to the scraper.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 01:42 PM by Sourwould »

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2020, 02:08 PM »
That's the same one I have.  I think I'm looking at about 70 sq ft of surface area.   Plan was to follow most RRP recommendations for tarping off the surround area and protecting the soil, covering windows/doors w/ plastic, p100 (I have one set of new filters and one that was used for a couple hours on a mask I bought for my girlfriend) filters, booties, etc. Obviously hepa vac and I usually wipe everything off with a lot of simple green and shop towels before I call it done.

I'm surprised to hear so much dust got away, but then I have only ever dealt w/ stripping paint by chemical methods.  I wanted to avoid that here, as I think it would be difficult to handle the runoff from neutralizing the stripper.  Also, I am not trying to do a complete removal, just a stabilization.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 02:23 PM by mrFinpgh »

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2020, 02:28 PM »
Definitely keep pregnant mom/ newborn child as far away from the work area as you can. Instead of just closing the door, get a dust barrier door like ZipWall (or something like it). I'd probably go as far as wearing a full protective body suit and have a designated decontamination area where you get out of it and bag it for disposal. And that area then needs some throughout cleaning, too.

Besides that, I'm trying to get some information on decontamination of HEPA/ L/M/H vacuums. As I think your questions are very interesting, and while there is a lot of information to be had on what not to do/ and how to perform the work - there is literally nothing to be found on how to decontaminate the vacuum/ further use. (We have a similar situation with class H vacuums that are used for removal of asbestos/ materials probably containing asbestos. But also, no word on how to decontaminate/ clean.)

Let me see what I can dig up. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2020, 02:45 PM »
By the way, this is what Festool's operating instructions have to say for Class H vacuums used on asbestos.
(CTH 26 E/a CTH 48 E/a; 717087_E / 2018-05-28) -> https://festoolcdn.azureedge.net/productmedia/Images/attachment/af8ce3e6-4977-11e9-80f9-005056b31774.pdf



Not sure the terminology is the same, so just a heads up:

Contaminated areas are considered "black areas", not contaminated areas are considered "white areas" in German.

Besides that, kinda what I expected in terms of no instructions on cleaning of a contaminated vacuum.

Just in case you're interested, here's an (sadly) outdated english translation of the mentioned TRGS 519 document:

https://www.baua.de/EN/Service/Legislative-texts-and-technical-rules/Rules/TRGS/pdf/TRGS-519.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=3

Technical Rules for Hazardous Substances - Asbestos Demolition, reconstruction or maintenance work

The up-to-date German version can be found here, just for reference.

https://www.baua.de/DE/Angebote/Rechtstexte-und-Technische-Regeln/Regelwerk/TRGS/pdf/TRGS-519.pdf?__blob=publicationFile&v=6

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 02:49 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Sourwould

  • Posts: 110
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2020, 03:18 PM »
That's the same one I have.  I think I'm looking at about 70 sq ft of surface area.   Plan was to follow most RRP recommendations for tarping off the surround area and protecting the soil, covering windows/doors w/ plastic, p100 (I have one set of new filters and one that was used for a couple hours on a mask I bought for my girlfriend) filters, booties, etc. Obviously hepa vac and I usually wipe everything off with a lot of simple green and shop towels before I call it done.

I'm surprised to hear so much dust got away, but then I have only ever dealt w/ stripping paint by chemical methods.  I wanted to avoid that here, as I think it would be difficult to handle the runoff from neutralizing the stripper.  Also, I am not trying to do a complete removal, just a stabilization.

Well, I'll say that you're doing more than the painter I worked for ever did. Sounds like you're geared up and doing everything right.

I understand you're just trying to get the loose stuff. That old oil paint is so hard it just seems to vaporize when you scrape it.

I've never used the stuff, but I believe there are high bond lead blocking primers that don't require you to sand the lead paint.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 03:34 PM by Sourwould »

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2020, 11:35 PM »
Definitely keep pregnant mom/ newborn child as far away from the work area as you can. Instead of just closing the door, get a dust barrier door like ZipWall (or something like it). I'd probably go as far as wearing a full protective body suit and have a designated decontamination area where you get out of it and bag it for disposal. And that area then needs some throughout cleaning, too.

Besides that, I'm trying to get some information on decontamination of HEPA/ L/M/H vacuums. As I think your questions are very interesting, and while there is a lot of information to be had on what not to do/ and how to perform the work - there is literally nothing to be found on how to decontaminate the vacuum/ further use. (We have a similar situation with class H vacuums that are used for removal of asbestos/ materials probably containing asbestos. But also, no word on how to decontaminate/ clean.)

Let me see what I can dig up. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thanks, Oliver, for that information.  I would guess most pros would dedicate a vacuum for this work, but for a homeowner that's a more bitter pill to swallow.

My plan was to essentially cover the entire front of the house (brick walls/windows) with plastic+tape to seal everything off prior to any disturbing of surfaces.  I still need to remove the beadboard ceiling (also probable lead paint, although I have not tested it yet), so it will be a couple very warm weekends for me.  Those tyvek suits are a bear in the heat, especially when wearing a mask.  It's enough to consider just hiring it all out (if I could find a contractor..) and focusing on other work that's more in my area of expertise. 

Quote
Well, I'll say that you're doing more than the painter I worked for ever did. Sounds like you're geared up and doing everything right.

I understand you're just trying to get the loose stuff. That old oil paint is so hard it just seems to vaporize when you scrape it.

I've never used the stuff, but I believe there are high bond lead blocking primers that don't require you to sand the lead paint.

I find the hardest part to be the prep work -- cutting and taping plastic everywhere, making sure it's secure and won't fall off.  It takes a long time and it's hard to stay motivated - in this case maybe longer than the actual paint prep.  On the bright side, cleanup does tend to be pretty good. :-)

Are you talking about fiberlock?  That's the only one I'm familiar with.



Offline Rob Z

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2020, 12:14 AM »
mrFinpgh

I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example). There was one realtor in particular who was very good about getting her clients to get the testing done before we were called to do work on the property. One figure that sticks in my mind is that testing for a three floor pre-1978 townhouse was a bit over $400.  In that instance the testing resulted in Zero lead detected in the house and the $400 spent was far less than what would have been spent doing all the work under the RRP guidelines.

So, in your case, maybe testing will result in no-lead present at least in some areas and that would greatly reduce your costs and hassles in dealing with this.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2020, 12:29 AM by Rob Z »

Offline aloysius

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2020, 12:31 PM »
Any airborne dusts are nasty & potentially harmful; lead present or no.  Simple, effective PPE & procedures will help protect you & yours.  Use coveralls (dungarees in American?), hair covering, glasses & respirator, or at the very least an appropriately rated mask.  Disrobe out of doors & wash protective clothing separately.  Or use disposables.  Wash hands & face before eating or fag smoking.  An occasional spritz of water on relevant surfaces will assist in reducing the finest, most potentially harmful inhalation of aerosolised dusts.

Your vac won't be "permanently" contaminated.  At least, nothing that a simple filter change, damp-dust or wash inside & vacuuming up a bucket or two of water to rid all hose & vac internals of residues won't preclude.  After which it's business as usual.
FOG-wit since '95:  Some say since birth...

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2020, 09:14 AM »
At any rate, I'm only concerned with this from a safety perspective as it relates to expecting mom or newborn child (and myself, too, as I live there).  I think I'm generally able to discern risk pretty well, but when it comes to the safety of others I am a lot more cautious.

I'd say your timing for doing this job is terrible. 

mrFinpgh
I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example).

Testing can be a double edged sword.  Its nice to know, until you have to legally disclose the presence of lead paint when you go to sell your house. 
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2020, 09:58 PM »
mrFinpgh

I know you noted in your first post that no testing had been done yet.  One thing I learned during my time with RRP was that often times there was no lead at all in a property, or at most very little (confined to just the window trim, for example). There was one realtor in particular who was very good about getting her clients to get the testing done before we were called to do work on the property. One figure that sticks in my mind is that testing for a three floor pre-1978 townhouse was a bit over $400.  In that instance the testing resulted in Zero lead detected in the house and the $400 spent was far less than what would have been spent doing all the work under the RRP guidelines.

So, in your case, maybe testing will result in no-lead present at least in some areas and that would greatly reduce your costs and hassles in dealing with this.

I think you're talking about the XRF tests.  I haven't done any of those.. just the leadcheck swabs on the interior (positive in a few spots, negative in others).  As @Brice Burrell mentioned - the downside to getting a formal test done is that I would be obliged to disclose it in the near future.  On the other hand, in this area, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.. the city of Pittsburgh is mostly old houses and lead paint is pretty common in a 90 year old house like mine.

Quote
I'd say your timing for doing this job is terrible.

Agreed, it isn't a great time.  The alternative is that it gets worse and flakes/alligators/crumbles more... which seems like a worse option to me. You know any paint contractors around town who are able to follow RRP rules?  [smile]



« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 10:01 PM by mrFinpgh »

Offline Brice Burrell

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2020, 11:02 PM »
I think you're talking about the XRF tests.  I haven't done any of those.. just the leadcheck swabs on the interior (positive in a few spots, negative in others).  As @Brice Burrell mentioned - the downside to getting a formal test done is that I would be obliged to disclose it in the near future.  On the other hand, in this area, I'm not sure how much of a difference it makes.. the city of Pittsburgh is mostly old houses and lead paint is pretty common in a 90 year old house like mine.

The issue is once the presence of lead paint is documented the perspective buyer(s) can use it as leverage against your price.  If you can honestly say you don't know then they can't.

Agreed, it isn't a great time.  The alternative is that it gets worse and flakes/alligators/crumbles more... which seems like a worse option to me. You know any paint contractors around town who are able to follow RRP rules?  [smile]

I don't know any contractors that kept up with the RRP protocol.
Check out my new blog, The Green and Dark Blue Blog.

Offline Rob Z

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2020, 03:30 PM »
 Hello mrFinpgh


Regarding potential leverage a prospective buyer might have, some of the realtors I dealt with took the approach to get out in front of the problem, have certified testing done, and document the coverage of all lead-containing trim and surfaces  with X coats of primer and paint. Their reasoning was: all these houses have lead in them to some degree, buyers know it, deal with the problem in the appropriate  way and move ahead. I guess their experience was here in my market that buyers aren't going to gain the upper hand because of this.  It could very well be that it is a different situation in your market now.



Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2020, 12:03 AM »
@Brice Burrell and @RobZ , you both make some very good points.

When I bought this house, the previous owners disclosed nothing, despite it being pretty obvious later on that there were significant issues that needed to be addressed immediately.  Of course, I bear some responsibility as a first-time buyer for not being savvy about the tell-tales of cheap workmanship (like the painted over outlets and light switches).  The visible loose asbestos in the old gas fireplace burners.. I think it should have been noted by either the PO or the home inspector  [unsure].  But even that was only a minimal issue to deal with.  Fortunately, in the last 6 years the value of the neighborhood has gone up a lot, and I've been able to do a lot of work on my own to improve things in this house to raise it's value.

Selling a house can be a challenge, and I think it's common that we all want to maximize our returns and minimize our expenses in order to get ahead in some way. After all, I'm trying to 'upgrade' my living situation and money that is left on the table w/ this house is money I won't have access to for the next one.  But on another level, I think that there is something to be said for certainty - whether it's my own (knowing where I need to be careful) or even the next owners (they will be able to make a more informed decision).  That knowledge can help keep both the residents and contractors working on the house safe in some cases.   It does run some risk of giving the buyer an issue, but I'm not sure how much I'm willing to worry about that when weighed against other ethical/safety considerations (or the possibility of discovering it's not as bad as i think it will be).

Back to the topic at hand, which is 'decontamination' of a hepa vac after using on lead. So far, I can't find much information other than some articles suggesting it is a good idea to have a dedicated vac for lead.  Nilfisk's manuals discuss that a vacuum used in 'an enclosed contaminated area' should be considered contaminated until professionally decontaminated.   There's clear instructions on how to change the bag on a hepa vac during RRP and do an internal/external cleaning, but I guess the concern is that the interior will most likely have some lead dust remaining on the surfaces.

Of course, this raises questions - what does it mean to be contaminated?   I also think about the instructions for vacuuming lead dust with a hepa vac that are provided to homeowners who are not working on anything.  Presumably they continue to vacuum w/ the same vac, right?   And yet, it's feasible that the internals of that vacuum are also contaminated after doing some vacuuming.  At the same time, the whole intent of a 'full hepa' system is that the internal stuff doesn't make it's way out.  So, it's a bit confusing for me.

I could certainly buy a dedicated lead vac, but it would be good to know if that's necessary.  Also, I've done a lot of 'cleanup' of various substances with this one already, in addition to using the drilling dust collector for walls and ceilings that have all sorts of questionable substances in and on them.  It would be nice to know if that was a bad idea.  :-)   

Offline six-point socket II

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  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2020, 10:15 AM »
Hi!

I've been trying to get information on the decontamination process from all the sources I frequently interact on/ with. De nada, so far.

Every manufacturer has the part about "decontamination should be left to a certified professional operating in a specialized/ dedicated work area" in their corresponding manuals.

Consensus is that contamination goes far beyond the bag/filter and main filter.

Some manufacturers ask to seal the vacuum in a plastic bag when you send it for repair, and have documentation of what dust you extracted available outside of that bag. Which makes total sense.

But then again, to actually work on that vacuum, they would need to have that specialized/ dedicated work area - and instructions on how to go about decontamination. Why such delicate information can't be found is beyond me.

But I think it lies within the nature of the whole "leave it to the pros" mantra.

A pro will (hopefully) have dedicated vacuums for this, and others for the other stuff. No decontamination required. If a repair is needed, it will be packaged as laid out in the manual (hopefully) - and the manufacturer will deal with it in accordance to all applicable rules and standards (hopefully) that are not meant to be known to us mere/ordinary mortals.

However the truth is probably:

Most pros don't care, use the vacuums as they see fit as long as there is no inspector present, if it at some point breaks it ends up with regular trash never to be seen again. Manufacturers probably don't even attempt a repair, they simply send a new extractor as long as it is within warranty and dispose it according to regulations/law (hopefully) - end of story.

Call me pessimistic, I don't think that "decontamination" is a real option if you want to do it 100% right. I couldn't even find a single company offering such services.

I even checked the technical rules/regulations in place in Germany on how to handle abestos/contamination/de-contamination. Not a single word on how to decontaminate tools. It's probably not feasible economically/ or simply not wanted at all.

Great business model for sure, if you have force enough people "playing" along.

Yes, I'm a little ticked off right now. ;) But just a little, that's life.  [big grin]

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4781
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2020, 12:32 PM »
The lack of information on how to clean equipment is frustrating but the cleaning process is not rocket science. Surely we can think it through and come up with a procedure. Here is an initial outline.

To clean contaminated equipment you need a negative air pressure room equipped with a slop sink.

Create the negative air pressure with another Hepa vac positioned outside the room pulling the room air  out.  [wink]

The work vac would ideally be completely disassembled and the plastic parts (all the non-electrical parts) washed and rinsed. The electrical parts would be blasted with compressed air (a little at a time to maintain negative pressure in the room) then further cleaned with disposable wipes.

If you want to be especially clean you can make another negative pressure room within or upstream of the main n.p. room to store clean parts until reassembly.

It seems like you could skip the complete disassembly and just blast hi pressure air into every possible opening and then wipe every surface that is possible to touch. How could any contaminant escape or be reached in normal use after such a cleaning?

That’s a start, fill in the blanks or post corrections/faults.


But too the op’s original concerns I’d explore consolidation rather than removal, and avoid the testing kettle of worms.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2020, 01:05 PM »
I'd say you need to start the journey with a white (definitely not contaminated) room, a room to switch in and out PPE, bring the cleaned and bagged equipment/parts into, and the working area. Working area is negative pressure. Room two needs to be able to have air exchanged.

From what I've read, the tools would have to be completely dismantled as this stuff can go everywhere. I'd say a lot of wet wipes and some typical alcohol based cleaning solvent for the circuit boards that will air out/dry without residue.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 398
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2020, 05:52 PM »
Well, it sounds like a 'real' decontamination of a vacuum would be impractical for a homeowner with limited space.  I would need a second hepa vac, which could make the need to decontaminate a bit moot.  :-)

Oliver, I think you are probably correct.  Around here, most contractors use Rigid shop vacs and probably don't give it much thought beyond that (at least from what I've seen). There's a couple people I know of who are much more meticulous and mindful of these things, but the level of work they are doing isn't appropriate for a house I'd like to sell soon.

So then, my next question is, what does it mean if a vacuum is contaminated? When using a hepa vac, you vacuum up lead waste, then you continue to vacuum/wet wipe/vacuum again as part of the cleanup (at least based on the leadsafe practice standards).   At this point, most of the poly sheeting is gone and you're using the vacuum in a presumably enclosed interior space. This seems to be standard practice, and a lot of people would wnt a prize for putting plastic down to begin with  [big grin].

I have to assume the same is true for a homeowner who is dealing with lead issues but isn't in a position to abate or encapsulate. They are advised to use a hepa vacuum, in some cases borrowing one from a govt program, and not really guided to take much steps beyond that.

It seems like on some level, a vac that has been used for lead should continue to perform it's HEPA cleaning function completely adequately  (assuming all seals are in tact).  I can't imagine using the vac w/o a hepa filter, though. I could see where lead dust could land on/stick to the exterior of the vac, but that should be cleanable, at least to a standard that would be relatively 'safe'.  I hope that's true, because I've used the vacuum for a lot of things over the past five years that I would prefer remain out of my lungs/blood.

@Michael Kellough, are you referring to encapsulation?  I would need to do a fair bit of work to prep, most of which would involve removing poorly applied latex paint that is peeling and flaking off of the existing surfaces.  The P/O had a crew apply behr paint+primer over almost every surface in the house, it looks like it was sprayed w/ no prep and no backrolling.  I've repainted most of the place, but the porch had been functioning like a workshop/lumber storage for a few years.


Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2020, 09:35 PM »
Yes, encapsulate, with Anchorseal (kidding).

However, just read that you are concerned with about 70 square feet. That’s only a day of work using a small hand scraper and being extremely careful.

I’d tape plastic around the area and don all the appropriate PPE and hold the Hepa vac nozzle (with a brush head) in one hand and a thin sharp putty knife in the other and go at it.

Assuming there are layers of paint on top of old lead paint that is losing it’s grip, the stuff you have to worry about is the dusty surface that is left behind when the chip comes off. Scrub that with the vac brush and move on to the next chip. I’d probably scrub with some coarse Scotch Brite and vac as well and rather than SimpleGreen I’d wipe with denatured alcohol. I worry about anything other than alcohol reducing adhesion of the new coating.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2020, 11:55 AM »
Hi!

The vacuum/main filter will perform like before until saturated - "contaminated" or not. It will keep all it can keep from being distributed in the air, what it can't keep will go through no matter what.

To get real: Use a filter bag, dispose that properly/ in accordance with applicable law(s) and clean the vacuum with wet wipes. Bag the hose and tape it shut/ seal it. Either keep the hose sealed for more lead paint work later on, or dispose with the filter bag. Remember that you used it for lead paint, when at some point you exchange the main/hepa filter and again dispose it as one should. (If you feel safer, you can of course exchange the main/hepa filter too, and dispose the contaminated one immediately.) Wear PPE and be done with it. I think that is reasonable and leaves you with an eased mind - you have done everything thoroughly and the best you could.

Honestly, that's what I would do - after trying to understand all the theoretical procedures involved set out by technical rules and guidelines regarding high risk dust.

What I would actually really & only, worry the most about is the hose and attachments. That will be full of, in your case, lead dust. And leaving it attached to the vacuum won't clean it - not even over time. So I'd probably bag that and dispose it, or leave it bagged for lead dust extraction only. (Only bag/un-bag when wearing PPE ...)

I recently cleaned the (not high risk dust contaminated) hoses of my vacs with pressured air, the amount of dust coming out of the hoses is still "incredible".

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2020, 12:42 PM »
I recently cleaned the (not high risk dust contaminated) hoses of my vacs with pressured air, the amount of dust coming out of the hoses is still "incredible".

Better to simply run water through them. When I clean a hose, I fill the sink or a 20 L bucket with water and soap and let it soak over night.

Offline six-point socket II

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  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2020, 12:46 PM »
Yes, definitely MUCH better idea! I feel really stupid right now for not thinking of that. Thanks Alex, will do it like that next time!!!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mrFinpgh

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2020, 12:59 PM »
First, I want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread.  It's helpful to be able to think through some of these things w/ others, who are bringing perspectives and experience that I definitely don't have.  I've found it very constructive and has helped avoid falling into the trap of perseveration (at least, somewhat..) :-)

It sounds like I could get by with the Fein Turbo II for the work, but it would be optimal to dedicate hoses/attachments for lead work.  The perspective seems to be that I could continue to use the vac for other work, but need to 1) keep the hepa filter attached 2) clean it carefully and 3) take precautions when switching out bags/disposing of the hepa filter, as they are going to be points of higher risk of exposure.

I think I had taken the simple green prompt from painttalk or somewhere like that, where someone said that it didn't interfere with finishes adhering.  Another person mentioned wiping up w/ Ammonia.  Only issue there is I might need to put a vapor cartridge on my mask.  :-)   I'm not sure whether there is any shellac layers, but I could see that getting messy.   Maybe it doesn't matter if it's just a wipe down.

@Alex I assume you are just washing your hose for sanitation - not to remove lead/asbestos dust?


Offline Alex

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Re: lead paint/hepa vacs/multi-use
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2020, 01:38 PM »
@Alex I assume you are just washing your hose for sanitation - not to remove lead/asbestos dust?

Yes, for sanitation. Removing lead and asbestos dust also falls under that header.

I would never dream of sucking up asbestos with my vac though, that's seriously dangerous stuff which I leave to the specialists.

I mostly leave lead paint as it is and paint over it. I am not that bothered by lead paint, it is nowhere near the danger level of asbestos. And I encounter it rarely.