Author Topic: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm  (Read 3361 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4271
IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« on: July 14, 2019, 09:49 PM »
This applies to SEKTION kitchen cabinets only. The PAX cabinets still conform to the 32mm system.

Haven’t bought any IKEA cabinets in decades. Wanted to add some storage to my utility room quickly and needed an in-between size. The IKEA ready-to-assemble stuff is easy to cut down, cheap, and packaged in clean neat bundles so I bought some nominal 24” deep base cabinets to get the 20” that would fit.

Get out the holey rail and LR32 kit to restore the columns of cut off shelf pin holes and discover the mismatch. I guess when IKEA Americanized their cabinets for the the US market (how about you Canada?) they adjusted the hole pattern too. Now the pitch is 1-1/4” instead of 32mm. A difference of a fat 1/4mm but it adds up fast.

I’ll only use a few shelves so I’ll just add holes where needed.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 09:30 PM by Michael Kellough »

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 196
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2019, 10:05 PM »
That's really strange as far as I know all line boring, and cnc machines are set up for 32mm worldwide. Not to mention pretty much all hardware is set for 32mm system. I have a large cnc and I can place at holes 1.25'' but I have to bore them individually instead of 10 at once since the machine is built for 32mm.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2019, 10:07 PM »
Which IKEA cabinets?

I have measured their stuff a ton and their kitchen system is very much still metric.  Just the width changes to some of the North American widths.  They really couldn't change it if the even wanted to since they don't make the hardware that goes with it.  When they went to the new kitchen system a few years ago they shifted the placement of the 32mm hole spacing from the previous system, but still very much metric design.  Actually the whole system got a bit more metric, they made it even more the same as the Global system, less alterations than the previous one. Unless you get a part that is directly driven by the width changes to the Base 3" setup, it's the same part as other countries get.

Now some of the other systems like PAX might get weird.  I have never understood why IKEA doesn't use the same stuff for everything.  I don't know if they have any US only offerings, but even then I can't imagine they would go 1 1/4, who uses such a spacing?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4271
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2019, 01:54 PM »
“...can't imagine they would go 1 1/4”

Just divide 30” (base cabinet side) by 24 increments and you get 1.25”.

Also bought a 40” wall cabinet which has 32 increments and should also have a 1.25” hole pitch but it’s a little off and then there is an adjustment in the middle of the pattern removing about a mm between a pair of holes. No idea why that happened whether done by CNC or line boring machine.

I wondered if the whole thing was cut via CNC but looking at the larger holes, (8mm and 15mm) the bottoms of the holes show evidence of full diameter boring bits.

Manufacturing data printed on the back edge of parts says IKEA SEKTION, Made in USA, June 11, 2019 (I simplified and shortened for clarity).
« Last Edit: July 15, 2019, 03:25 PM by Michael Kellough »

Offline usernumber1

  • Posts: 67
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2019, 02:55 PM »
canada pax from few years ago - 32mm

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2019, 09:03 PM »
I wonder if this is a mess up and IKEA is going to end up with a recall.  This is going to completely trash their drawer systems.  I don't think this is intentional, I wonder if something at the plant got messed up and they didn't catch it.

I would try to reach out to IKEA as even a heads up for them. I know this is almost impossible as IKEA has no forward facing office for people to contact.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4271
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2019, 09:28 PM »
This 1.25” hole pitch is probably limited to kitchen cabinets designed for the US market.

I’m not real familiar with the IKEA product/brand range so I don’t know if SEKTION is limited to kitchen cabinets or if it is available elsewhere.

The PAX range of cabinets aren’t required to meet specific height targets (no kitchen cabinets) so there’s no need to change the hole pitch from the usual 32mm.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2019, 10:56 PM »
Sektion is the North American name for the same kitchen system they use in Europe.  They just change widths, to be the 3" increments instead of being based around the European 600mm width baseline.  I have measured the Sektion many times, it's very much 32mm, and so is the blum hardware it runs.  They can't just do a running change on this as it would break the whole system, and all the parts.  Most the metric aspect of it people would never notice without actively thinking to look for it or putting a metric tape on it.

It's been out for 5 years and part of the whole concept is you can swap stuff around later, buy different parts and the like. Huge selling point. If they did a running change like that the internet would blow up and 3rd parties like Semi-Handmade would go nuts.

It looks much more like something has messed up at the factory and some bad parts are being made.  Go back to ikea with metric tape and measure the stuff in store, maybe take your photo with you to show them something is not right.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2019, 09:57 AM »
Amazingly topical news I see this morning.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/16/business/ikea-us-factory-closing/index.html

IKEA is closing the plant that currently makes the cabinets for Sektion in the North America.  If the place is now making wonked parts, this is probably a good time for this.

I get why they had it, just the sheer shipping cost of moving the big stuff (panels) around the world and with the kitchens being their big seller, it makes sense to have.  But looks like the math got to where it wasn't working.  I wonder if long term IKEA will decided to stop adjusting the widths and just sell the Global version direct and start selling 600mm wide appliances here, I wish they had done that from the start as a way to push a phase out of North American only sized appliances so we could have global options.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4271
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 11:09 AM »
I was glad to see IKEA bring (to Elizabeth NJ some thirty years ago) European design (especially bathroom cabinets) but that style increasingly (sometimes lurchingly) is becoming Americanized and thus less appealing.

Can’t deny the exceptional value though.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 09:18 PM »
I agree that bringing frameless cabinets to the forefront in this country was big.  I think they have hurt things at time by bringing some really off looking and cheesy door options, which then get people thinking that is what frameless looks like... so that hurts progress.  It probably also helps some traditional cabinet makers as it makes what they make more special and different from the frameless stuff.

Like I mentioned above, it gets frustrating when you see the appliances and such you can get elsewhere in the world, where they largely standardize on widths, which makes kitchen layout work so much better,  no 24" washer, 30" oven, 33" fridge, 36" cooktop non-sense.  They had the opportunity to bring built in fridges to the US.  Just imagine them bringing a ~1200 USD built in fridge to the market when right now the cheapest options are 5-6000 USD.  I think they could have changed the landscape there a lot of they had pushed it instead of caving to the North American norms.  At the same time it is a frustration they skipped common US sizes for things do to their door commonality plan, so no 6", 9",  27", 33" , 39" cabinets, which for a lot of kitchens is a killer. In the end I gave up one trying to get their parts to work and decided to just make all the cabinets for my house.

That said, it's not like IKEA is ditching the kitchens (that would be insane), and maybe with production shifting back closer to the mothership, maybe they will re-think a bit and suddenly they will start marketing some built in 24" appliances for the kitchens. Be just like dishwashers, we get global 600mm dishwashers, because manufactures just re-label them 24", but they don't do other things.  I can see a lot of US households liking the idea of having multiple combo washer/dryers in their house verses 1 big washer and 1 big dryer.  I know a lot of folks would like to see nice, yet small fridges return, you can't even buy a single door 36" fridge anymore unless you pay for a 5-6K high end fridge, 33" fridges are getting rare.

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 211
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 04:58 PM »
We just purchased an IKEA book case (BILLY for $59).   I just measured the shelf spacing, it is 32mm vertically, and 37mm insert from the front edge.  Appears to use the 32mm system.

Bob

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 07:56 PM »
Having some experience in this arena I can offer this:

The vertical spacing in a row of continuous 5mm holes doesn't really affect the installation of a euro drawer runner.  As long as both rows are spaced apart in a multiple of 32 the drawers don't care what height they are installed at.   What does happen is the drawer front height / position / and spacing will no long be able to be easily calculated using the drawer manuf.'s included measurements.  In this instance BLUM.  Those are based on a 32mm vertical spacing.

If however, you are designing a cabinet program from the ground up and only offer 3-4 different drawer height configurations; the calculations can be quickly done and programed into your machinery.  It's a one time deal.   A 32mm multiple just happens to be the most efficient use of space with Euro hardware.

On the appliance front - most U.S. consumers balk when told they will have "less space" in their metric sized appliance.  I hear pitches all the time telling customers that our 24" oven,dishwasher, or sink is BIGGER than the Euro 60cm version.  I cannot recall there ever being a 36" wide "affordable" non built -in all refrigerator on the market.   There have been, and remain, a few at 32-34" wide.  Some are counter depth too.   The overwhelming majority of Ikea kitchens just don't have room for 60+ inches of refrigeration in them.  So , they have no real incentive to push this. 

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1359
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2019, 06:43 AM »
"They had the opportunity to bring built in fridges to the US.  Just imagine them bringing a ~1200 USD built in fridge to the market when right now the cheapest options are 5-6000 USD.  I think they could have changed the landscape there a lot of they had pushed it instead of caving to the North American norms"

I wonder if this has a lot to do with our (US) way of living and being more mobile. Many families move every few years. They may perceive an expense like a built-in fridge as lost money when they sell. Or that they can't easily take with them what the appliance they like. Not everyone but many people take their fridge, washer, and dryer with them when they move. A stove which is a stand alone appliance doesn't seem to garner the same affection though. A built-in oven and/or cooktop are fixed and stay with the house. Maybe that's not the case elsewhere, I don't know how often people move in other parts of the world.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2019, 12:09 AM »
"They had the opportunity to bring built in fridges to the US.  Just imagine them bringing a ~1200 USD built in fridge to the market when right now the cheapest options are 5-6000 USD.  I think they could have changed the landscape there a lot of they had pushed it instead of caving to the North American norms"

I wonder if this has a lot to do with our (US) way of living and being more mobile. Many families move every few years. They may perceive an expense like a built-in fridge as lost money when they sell. Or that they can't easily take with them what the appliance they like. Not everyone but many people take their fridge, washer, and dryer with them when they move. A stove which is a stand alone appliance doesn't seem to garner the same affection though. A built-in oven and/or cooktop are fixed and stay with the house. Maybe that's not the case elsewhere, I don't know how often people move in other parts of the world.

I think it is correct that US folks move around far more than people in most countries.  This is an issue in getting people to build better homes and things related to them. People don't want to put money into something they figure they will just move from in a few years. Look how many people have no interest in solar panels, they see it takes 5 years to pay back the cost and they balk at the idea.  Or roofs, a metal roof will last forever but cost more than a fiberglass shingles that will last 15 years, so they stick with the fiberglass shingles cause they figure they won't be around.

People taking appliances with them is a complete mixed bag. I don't think there is a real pattern too it. I think it's more of if they move to a new places that doesn't have something their current one does they take it with them, or maybe they just bought something nice they take it, verses using it as an excuse to upgrade.  Of course appliance size variation makes this even more complex.

I'm sure Europe is varied. I believe in some countries it is or was normal for rental properties to be setup where folks completely take the kitchen with them and put their kitchen back together in the next place. I'm curious how real that is or if it's more of a specialized case at best.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2019, 08:52 AM »
I've never seen any calculations that show a 5 year payback on solar panels. Most are in the 25 year range.  But I agree that people don't want at to spend if they aren't going to be around to use something. 

As homes move up the price scale , taking appliances with you when you move becomes non existent.  Additionally, if the appliance is "built in " or attached to the house , it must stay under most rules. 

My experience in Europe is the same.  No one in my orbit ever took appliances or a kitchen with them.  Although I know it happens,  because I've seen a place or two that were empty.  It's also correct that EU members just don't move as often as Americans do, so the sample size is much smaller.

My view is that Americans just have a different view on investment.  We'd rather have a shiny new , or the latest greatest widget; and a lot of them rather than fewer higher quality ones.  Europeans take a longer term view and are willing to invest in better materials.   This seems to be the case with hard and soft goods, food, cars, homes and even tools.

This is after all a Festool forum  - a Euro brand. We're used to spending more for a better product and service (hopefully) when other cheaper shinier newer tools exist from other makers that do the same things.   Most Americans would rather have the $40 black &decker than the $400 Festool.  It just a different mentality. 

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1459
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2019, 06:41 AM »
I think it is correct that US folks move around far more than people in most countries.  This is an issue in getting people to build better homes and things related to them. People don't want to put money into something they figure they will just move from in a few years. Look how many people have no interest in solar panels, they see it takes 5 years to pay back the cost and they balk at the idea.  Or roofs, a metal roof will last forever but cost more than a fiberglass shingles that will last 15 years, so they stick with the fiberglass shingles cause they figure they won't be around.
Unless the average lifetime of the buildings is way too low in general it should make sense for a property owner to go for the persistant option, from it increasing the retail value (as the next owner won't need to fix it again for a foreseeable future).

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2019, 12:48 PM »
I think it is correct that US folks move around far more than people in most countries.  This is an issue in getting people to build better homes and things related to them. People don't want to put money into something they figure they will just move from in a few years. Look how many people have no interest in solar panels, they see it takes 5 years to pay back the cost and they balk at the idea.  Or roofs, a metal roof will last forever but cost more than a fiberglass shingles that will last 15 years, so they stick with the fiberglass shingles cause they figure they won't be around.
Unless the average lifetime of the buildings is way too low in general it should make sense for a property owner to go for the persistant option, from it increasing the retail value (as the next owner won't need to fix it again for a foreseeable future).

That seems reasonable but the situation is far more complex than that.  Without a lengthy discussion it boils down to money today.  Most will agree a tile roof will last 2-5x longer than an ashphalt shingle. The cost at install is 5-10x more.  And that money is due today. It takes a loooong time to recover the xtra spend.

Most people will recognize the maintence benefit when purchasing , but are not willing to cough up the 5-10x needed to pay for the original job. Coupled with the frequent moving trend, there's no way for the original purchaser to recoup on their choice to buy the better product. 

Short of it is , there just isn't a return on the investment in better quality products in the USA.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2019, 11:19 PM »
I think it is correct that US folks move around far more than people in most countries.  This is an issue in getting people to build better homes and things related to them. People don't want to put money into something they figure they will just move from in a few years. Look how many people have no interest in solar panels, they see it takes 5 years to pay back the cost and they balk at the idea.  Or roofs, a metal roof will last forever but cost more than a fiberglass shingles that will last 15 years, so they stick with the fiberglass shingles cause they figure they won't be around.
Unless the average lifetime of the buildings is way too low in general it should make sense for a property owner to go for the persistant option, from it increasing the retail value (as the next owner won't need to fix it again for a foreseeable future).

So on average houses are sold in this country every 7 years.  Thus as mentioned, we move around a lot.  This ties into a lot of other issues faced by the US, but that's a whole bigger tangent.

The next issue is houses in the US just simply are not of a good construction, code only plans for a service life of 80 years. And they expect people will heavily renovate it at least once.  The structures are built to be safe, and handle things like earthquakes. But they aren't designed for indefinite life.  If someone is building their home for them, and wants a well built house they certainly can get it, but that's a small bunch of people.  Most is big developments that are built with as cheap as possible.  I don't know if there is the term "builder grade" in Europe, but here its not just a term but a listing on lots of stuff.  It's understood that when you buy a house in development here, you expect to have to replace the roof, windows, doors in a few years, gut the kitchen, and the bathrooms as everything is basically disposable.  What would be considered a pretty normal house in most of Europe would be extreme in the US.  It's a sad state, but it's what it is. 

stats

Note the ~2400 sq ft on new construction, and remember that generally won't include basement, which could add another 1000 sq ft. Looking around it looks like new houses in Germany are around 1200sq ft.  Which is 1950's US.

Big houses with lots of bathrooms means they cheap out along the way.  Not to say all old houses were built well.

This also extends to systems.  People here just tend to accept things like tanked water heaters and replacing them every 10 years, so make sure they are dirt cheap. Same for a furnace, keep them cheap since they replace them a lot.  I have a tankless (from Germany), and people act like it can't work.  It cost a little bit more than a tanked water here, yet takes no space and just works flawlessly.  Then you get to solar panels.  Along the way people got convinced the place they go has to be the roof, but our roofs only last ~20 years, so to put panels there means issues each time you have to replace the roof.  This has helped standing seam metal grow, but it's till very expensive here mainly due to the lack of companies doing it, and skills.  The other part is since we design around fiberglass shingles, architects general make complex roofs that are easy with shingles (even if leak prone), but very hard to do with metal. Lots of valleys and ridges instead of simple wedge or even single slope.  If you design with metal or tile in mind, the cost difference isn't so bad (can even be cheaper). But for existing houses metal roofs can cost 3-4X the price which at that point it doesn't make sense.

The real shame is a lot of timber frame, stone, full masonry houses from pre-1900 in this country will out live most stuff built the last 100 years here.   Apparently about 9% of new construction here is manufactured (advanced "trailer"), in rural areas the percentage is something like 80%.  They are very cheap, but also in the end disposable construction. 

If you stay put, build for what you need, and build/buy when still fairly young. A solid quality house with made with good stuff is fine, but it just doesn't happen. If you spend the money on a solid structure, and systems in the house, when you find yourself having to move in a few years for your job, you will just loose money on the house as people don't pay for what they can't see, nor do appraisers factor in quality.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 397
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2019, 04:47 PM »
Some random observations from The Netherlands:
- People move, on average, every seven years over here. I don't know what qualifies as "every few years" but it seems shorter than the life of a decent fridge.
- Homes are generally sold with a kitchen, which includes the fridge whether it's built in or not. It's not really hard to take out though as it's basically usually the same fridge just without a door and slid into a cabinet, for our "standard" models. If you want to take it you can agree this with your buyer.
- 5000-6000 dollars is a completely incredible price for a fridge. I have never even looked at fridges over 2000 euros and I'd have to look really hafd to find any that cost more than 3000. All our main German made top tier brands seem to shoot in the 800 to 2500 region.
- "American fridges" are a popular thing here that some people like to have as sort of a fashion statement in their kitchen. Funny to see how the grass always seems greener on the other side I guess!
- Standard sizes are a blessing. Basically the only things that aren't standardized here are free standing "American" fridges and the hole sizes/shapes in countertops for sinks and stoves. Although they will always still fit in/on a 40, 50 or 60mm cabinet.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1459
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2019, 05:41 PM »
Then you get to solar panels.  Along the way people got convinced the place they go has to be the roof, but our roofs only last ~20 years, so to put panels there means issues each time you have to replace the roof.
I would strongly think about completely replacing such a low durability roof with a roof integrated solar system.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2019, 06:59 PM »
It's not as simple as that, Gregor.

I don't think such a product is available in the USA.  Even if it is, few will be able to afford it.  Of those that can, fewer still will want it.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 07:38 PM by xedos »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2019, 09:02 PM »
Then you get to solar panels.  Along the way people got convinced the place they go has to be the roof, but our roofs only last ~20 years, so to put panels there means issues each time you have to replace the roof.
I would strongly think about completely replacing such a low durability roof with a roof integrated solar system.

If you mean solar shingles, then no.  If you are talking about solar panels mounted to something like standing seam, I would agree.   Tried finding numbers, it looks like asphalt shingles are on 70% of houses in the US.  They are the norm, and because of this they are super cheap and what everything is designed around.  Unless your house was designed for a different material, or your lucky and the roof is of a simple design, changing materials is hard or expensive or both.  You also now face the issue that as metal roofs have made a return in popularity (in part because people woke up to how bad asphalt shingles are, and also because of solar), you now have towns banning metal roofs.  Can't go having people alter the look of the town *sarcasm* .

I live next to a town full of mansions/really expensive houses.  These sell for 1-1.5 million USD.  Almost none of them have non-asphalt roofs.  Most don't even have metal valleys.  Yet the roofs are made so complicated in design that putting basically any other material on them would be impossible. 

Trying to get the change going is hard.  Especially in a world where you need to get the design of your house approved no just for code type compliance, but for style and you face a board of people that more often than not want things to all look the same and they way they always have been.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1459
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2019, 05:17 AM »
I don't think such a product is available in the USA.
Would be an interesting market niche, don't you think?

If you mean solar shingles, then no.  If you are talking about solar panels mounted to something like standing seam, I would agree.
I thought about something like this (link from quick googling just as an example of the concept).

The panels are basically sheets of glass and have to withstand nature (wind, snow, rain, whatnot) anyway. A sealing frame system that results in an overall air- and watertight installation dosn't seem to be rocket science (at least according to what they show on that site). The problematic thing is when the roof dosn't conform in size to standard panel dimensions, something the british guys I linked solve through producing their own panels (so they can make bespoke ones in whatever shape and size is needed to fully cover a given roof).
Quote
I live next to a town full of mansions/really expensive houses.  These sell for 1-1.5 million USD.  Almost none of them have non-asphalt roofs.  Most don't even have metal valleys.  Yet the roofs are made so complicated in design that putting basically any other material on them would be impossible.
I agree that doing solar (or even a different material) on a roof where the architect emphasized form at the cost of function can likely be a problem. On the other hand, with that problem being as widespread as you say it is... it sounds like a system (for full, partial or even no solar) that can deal with this at a reasonable price-point sounds like an excellent market opportunity. Well, except the next problem that you stated:
Quote
Trying to get the change going is hard.  Especially in a world where you need to get the design of your house approved no just for code type compliance, but for style and you face a board of people that more often than not want things to all look the same and they way they always have been.
Yea, I suppose having to deal with this kind of mindset to be a quite unfun experience. That's why I like to concentrate on the technical side of things.

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 159
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2019, 09:45 AM »
- 5000-6000 dollars is a completely incredible price for a fridge. I have never even looked at fridges over 2000 euros and I'd have to look really hafd to find any that cost more than 3000. All our main German made top tier brands seem to shoot in the 800 to 2500 region.
There are basically two markets for fridges.  There are the ones that are totally free standing, and you just pull them out, connect the ice maker and power and you're set.  Those are in the $800-2500 range.  The other is you get to the bigger things like Sub-Zero/Monogram/Thermador where you are spending ~$10,000 for a 48" fridge and it is integrated into the cabinetry.

In my area, when you get into houses in the $850,000+ range you are more likely to see the more expensive fridge.  When you're in the $600,000 and below, you'll see the less expensive ones.  In the middle it's a mix.

Offline Sanderxpander

  • Posts: 397
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2019, 11:42 AM »
$10,000 is even more incredible, especially as an "integrated" fridge is nothing more than a regular fridge without an outer case and sometimes without a front (so it can be really integrated with a kitchen cabinet front, that's what we call integrated here). When I google Thermidor built in fridge I see about 3500/4000 dollars. Still way too much but I suppose that's closer to the top end here. I struggle to see where the extra $2000 (for a $6000 model) or $6000 (for a $10,000 model) would go. I guess I would expect a walk-in cooler room for that.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2019, 01:49 PM »
Quote
When I google Thermidor built in fridge I see about 3500/4000 dollars

Where exactly are you seeing this ?   I've been loosely associated with the appliance industry for 25 years and I'm pretty sure a new, full size Thermador refrigerator has ever cost $4000 or less. 

American "built in" and integrated fridges are a bit different animal than their Euro counterparts.  For decades, Euro fridges were concealed by putting them in a cabinet with four sides and using a cabinet door on a simple but special sliding bracket that is attached to the fridge door itself. 

This works because "regular" euro fridges have been designed to function enclosed.  Regular American units need lots of air around them to function and they are deeper than the cabinetry that surrounds them.  They won't fit in a cabinet and if they did they'd bun up the compressors.

So, for the few people that wanted a concealed fridge, but didn't want to import a Euro unit and couldn't deal with the small size even if they did - SubZero developed the "fully integrated" 700 series in the 90's.  These weren't regualr fridges or built-in fridges but something new.  They had purpose built hinges and depths to conform to 24" cabinet carcass depths.   

Now the Europeans have jumped in the game with new ground up platforms that are larger and more feature laden than the regular EU fridges they sell.  Bosch, Gaggenau, Thermador and Miele all share a factory in Turkey that churns out these large fully integrated units largely for America but they sell in other markets too.  These are more costly to make, sell in fewer numbers and have more cache.  Which is really why they cost what they do - because the market will bear it.

Kinda like cars.  India, China and Korea can all produce comfortable, functional and inexpensive cars.  We're not clamoring to buy those over American, German and Japanese versions even though they cost 4x more like these fridges.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 597
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2019, 06:48 PM »
yeah, just do a quick search on a site like AJ madision  for  Miele and Thermador  fridges.  There is a small 22" wide one for 3200 USD,  then the rest hit the normal range for them 6600-9100 USD  (ignoring their "rebate").

This is why the market for these is so small.  It's the same people who buy 10 1/2 gas burner stove that is 6 feet wide and needs a 4000cfm range hood, yet they never cook.

I wish the smaller built in's like Europe has had would be a thing here.  I hate where fridges have gone in this country.  You have to pay more too get a "counter depth", which is insane, who ever thought "you know, we could just make the fridge 6" deeper and have it stick into the room, then charge more for a model that fits is an absolute idiot/genius depending on your point of view.  And now these 42" wide 5 door things have become the norm.  You can't even buy a 36" non double door fridge anymore unless you jump up to the Miele type fridges.  Even finding a 33" fridge is now hard, or rather gives you limited options and gets expensive/special order.  A lot of us don't want multi doors etc,  just a single door fridge on top,  freezer on bottom, counter depth.  These are now hard to get.  But if you want your fridge to have Wi-Fi or a built in screen to show you what is in the fridge, no problem.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 119
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2019, 08:23 PM »
Quote
yeah, just do a quick search on a site like AJ madision  for  Miele and Thermador  fridges.  There is a small 22" wide one for 3200 USD,  then the rest hit the normal range for them 6600-9100 USD  (ignoring their "rebate").

Nope, Thermador does not make a 22" wide refridgerator.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1359
Re: IKEA US shelf pin hole pattern is ALMOST 32mm
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 06:48 AM »
"you now have towns banning metal roofs."

Where are these towns you speak of?

Metal roofs have been around for hundreds of years, along with slate and other durable materials.

What is the reasoning or justification for banning metal roofs now.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?