Author Topic: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...  (Read 1294 times)

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Offline ba-doyn

  • Posts: 1
Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« on: August 24, 2020, 12:54 PM »
Hello there,

Pretty new to the Domino 500. Used if for a few things, mainly as proof-of-concepts, and it was simple and worked great.

I'm constructing a simple screen door and using the 500 for the construction. It's a pretty lightweight door and think the 10mm dominoes will work fine.

My thoughts then turned to exterior doors. I have a back and basement door I would like to try my hand at. Would the 10mm dominoes work for these types of doors if I pack a bunch in each stile/rail?

I've done lots of searching on this subject but most of the answers devolve into mortisers, etc. I don't have one of those, nor an XL.

Thanks for all your help.
Michael

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Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2020, 01:01 PM »
What're the sizes of the rails/stiles (TxWxL) and the finished door?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2238
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2020, 01:13 PM »
For a light weight door it should work fine. Use multiple dominos per joint if space allows and exterior glue or epoxy. Could also make your own dominos from something more rot resistant.

Offline Sparktrician

  • Posts: 4054
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2020, 04:02 PM »
If you're going to build exterior doors, the DF 700 is the better tool by far.  You might do well to build several test doors of much smaller dimensions using the DF 500 to get your chops down right, then spring for a DF 700 and scale up using what you learned.  This is a good way to test the relative strength of various joint types.  In the meantime, research the best materials and the most durable finishes for exterior doors.    [smile]
- Willy -

  "Show us a man who never makes a mistake and we will show a man who never makes anything. 
  The capacity for occasional blundering is inseparable from the capacity to bring things to pass."

 - Herman Lincoln Wayland (1830-1898)

Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 106
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2020, 05:05 PM »
I made a set of custom garage doors a few years ago. Had a couple of quotes and worked out that I could do it myself and buy a Domino 700 and still be less than half the cost of the cheapest quote. I already owned the D500 so could have made it cheaper again, but even with doubling up D500 tenons I felt the D700 was worth the expense - it's a different animal to the D500 when you look at the size of the tenons.

Offline Lincoln

  • Posts: 98
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2020, 05:26 PM »
DF500 is way undersized for exterior doors. Just not enough penetration. Would be fine for screen doors though.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 07:02 PM by Lincoln »

Offline greg mann

  • Posts: 1895
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2020, 06:57 PM »
I made a couple full size ‘screen doors’ for entry into our enclosed garden using 10mm dominoes for rail and style joints. 1x3 and 1x4 material. There has been zero sag in five years and they are totally exposed to Michigan weather. I do have one diagonal between the middle and bottom rails so that makes a big difference. I would think a wider bottom and top style would negate the need for the diagonal but 10mm dominoes, two to each joint should be sufficient for a screen door.
Greg Mann
Oakland, Michigan

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2020, 07:08 PM »
The lumber, the rail and stile sizes, the door size and design can all affect the final weight of the door, and hence whether the DF500 can do the job. It may not, but until OP comes back with more info., I wouldn't rule it out as the wrong tool. In fact, I have a way (jig) of expanding the DF500 capability slightly for one-time jobs like lighter doors. (If you're making doors for a living, or have half a dozen doors to make, my shop-made method is not efficient.)

However, if I had only one big door to make and had no other big projects in the foreseeable future, I would not get a DF700...I would use the traditional M&T. I hate to see a great tool sitting idle in my shop for years (that's partly why I've parted company with some premium tools (TS75, e.g.) or accessories.)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 07:35 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2238
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2020, 07:12 PM »
I have a way (jig) of expanding the DF500 capability slightly for one-time jobs like lighter doors.
Could you elaborate? Increase the depth with drill?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2020, 07:29 PM »
I have a way (jig) of expanding the DF500 capability slightly for one-time jobs like lighter doors.
Could you elaborate? Increase the depth with drill?

I've built a couple of drilling jigs (8mm & 10mm) that can be used to drill any existing domino mortises up to about 60mm and 80mm deep respectively. Use shop-made dominoes of 120mm and 160mm long accordingly. Please see the images. I've used the 8mm jig but not the 10mm (no big enough projects yet [big grin]). If you use longer bits, you can get deeper mortises with the jigs.

Btw, freehand drilling (i.e. using an existing domino mortise to guide the drilling) WON'T work.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 07:41 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7860
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2020, 01:47 AM »
If this were my project...I'd just go with the DF 700. The old saying, "You pays your money, and you takes your ride", works extremely well for this discussion.

As I get older, the one thing I refuse to do is to "cheap out" when it comes to materials, machine tools or the time that's necessary to spend on producing a quality product.

If I were 30ish to 40ish...ya...time's on my side...I've got time to waste. However when the clock starts to tick down, I don't want to be doing and redoing the same task every 5-7 years. I'm just spinning my wheels at that point. 

So, I make a heavy outside door using multiple 10 mm Dominos, I hang it and then I observe its performance over the next 1...5...10 years?

So what happens if it lasts for only 10 years (which I doubt it will), what's my next move? To make another door?  Life's too short when you pass the 60 year old time line.  [big grin]

Besides, the DF 700 has now increased by $200 and the raw materials for the new door have increased by $400. That's a losing proposition.


Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2238
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2020, 02:06 AM »
Cheese, it's a screen door ~1/5 the weight of the regular one. But if you are that concerned about longevity skip DF700 gizmo (which is for wimps)  [poke] and do proper pinned M&T joint.  [big grin]
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 03:19 AM by Svar »

Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 60
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2020, 03:20 AM »
The OP doesn’t include any details of construction without which it’s hard to say anything with certainty. But I can point to the door shown below which I built 5 years ago. It’s the only door I’ve ever made (although I’m about to repeat this design, 2” wider) and it was my first Domino project.  I have the XL and used the biggest (14x140) dominos, full length. The door is solid cherry. The narrow stile at the top has 2 dominos in each side, the middle 6 have 3 and the bottom one has 4, for a total of 48 in all. Assembly was more exciting than I would have liked.

Doors take a beating, and with 2 teens in the house at the time I wasn’t going to skimp.  The 1/16” gap between the door and the frame (which I also made) hasn’t shifted at all.  I’m willing to believe it’s overbuilt; but it isn’t underbuilt.

A local door showroom had a similar door for $5K, but cherry veneer over softwood. I paid about $500 for the lumber for 2 doors and frames, a couple hundred each for the hardware and glass, and after the XL I was still ahead.  It was a fun project and I have a new appreciation for a well-built door.

Mario

« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 03:33 AM by mwolczko »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7860
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2020, 09:01 AM »
Cheese, it's a screen door ~1/5 the weight of the regular one. But if you are that concerned about longevity skip DF700 gizmo (which is for wimps)  [poke] and do proper pinned M&T joint.  [big grin]

Ahhh...missed that one simple word Svar...screen. [doh] 

I was actually responding to the 2nd part of the question which was would the DF 500 be suitable for regular exterior doors.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 09:16 AM by Cheese »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7860
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2020, 09:21 AM »

A local door showroom had a similar door for $5K, but cherry veneer over softwood. I paid about $500 for the lumber for 2 doors and frames, a couple hundred each for the hardware and glass, and after the XL I was still ahead.  It was a fun project and I have a new appreciation for a well-built door.


Nice job on the door Mario.  [big grin]  Very nice.  Is that some inlayed material along the front stile or is it a routed groove?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 09:25 AM by Cheese »

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 584
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2020, 10:00 AM »
Years ago I made an entrance door for our home. Hooked up with a custom door maker on another forum. Even though I had a Domino he pushed hard for me to use dowels so I used them. 8 years later and the door is still in perfect shape. So maybe consider dowels?

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2020, 10:12 AM »
Years ago I made an entrance door for our home. Hooked up with a custom door maker on another forum. Even though I had a Domino he pushed hard for me to use dowels so I used them. 8 years later and the door is still in perfect shape. So maybe consider dowels?

Did he say why (I'm assuming yours was an XL)?

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4910
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2020, 10:36 AM »
Cheese, it's a screen door ~1/5 the weight of the regular one. But if you are that concerned about longevity skip DF700 gizmo (which is for wimps)  [poke] and do proper pinned M&T joint.  [big grin]

Ahhh...missed that one simple word Svar...screen. [doh] 

I was actually responding to the 2nd part of the question which was would the DF 500 be suitable for regular exterior doors.

First post third paragraph,

My thoughts then turned to exterior doors. I have a back and basement door I would like to try my hand at. Would the 10mm dominoes work for these types of doors if I pack a bunch in each stile/rail?‘

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2020, 10:53 AM »
Some build exterior doors with dowels (which are longer than DF500 dominoes by miles or kms  [tongue]): https://www.dowelmax.com/woodworking/dowel-joint-construction-strength/

Don't underestimate the joinery strength of twin/double dowels, or in this case, dominoes just because the big brother XL is in existence. I wouldn't jump into conclusions until I know more about the OP's door. I do agree that if there's a long-term need (or desire) for a bigger machine, get the right machine (especially for those in the trade; tool expenses are usually tax-deductible).

Dominoes (DF500) in a Fine Woodworking test were found to be stronger than dowels. 

« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 11:20 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 7860
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2020, 11:07 AM »
FWIW...here's what Festool recommends in one of their sales catalogs.

Large tables should use 12 mm

Doors should use 14 mm




And this excerpt is from an 85 page Festool Domino catalog.



« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 11:23 AM by Cheese »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2238
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2020, 11:47 AM »
Cheese, it's a screen door ~1/5 the weight of the regular one. But if you are that concerned about longevity skip DF700 gizmo (which is for wimps)  [poke] and do proper pinned M&T joint.  [big grin]
Ahhh...missed that one simple word Svar...screen. [doh] 
I was actually responding to the 2nd part of the question which was would the DF 500 be suitable for regular exterior doors.
First post third paragraph,
My thoughts then turned to exterior doors. I have a back and basement door I would like to try my hand at. Would the 10mm dominoes work for these types of doors if I pack a bunch in each stile/rail?‘
Ok. You guys win.  [bite tongue] Are you suggesting I have to read the question before answering?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2020, 11:52 AM by Svar »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2192
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2020, 01:50 PM »

And this excerpt is from an 85 page Festool Domino catalog.

(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

The door joint shown is a M&T joint reinforced by dominoes (XL). Not much different from this using dowels:

https://www.woodgrain.com/breaking-down-doors-stile-and-rail-doors/

That makes me wonder if it's for reinforcement, the shorter (DF500) dominoes might even work like the dowels (never built or plan to build a big door, so just a guess here).

Offline mwolczko

  • Posts: 60
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2020, 03:10 PM »
Nice job on the door Mario.  [big grin]  Very nice.  Is that some inlayed material along the front stile or is it a routed groove?
Thanks!  It’s hard to see on the low-rez photo but there are small strips of walnut inlaid above and below the door knob.

Offline JimD

  • Posts: 500
Re: Exterior Door Construction with Domino 500 opinions...
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2020, 12:35 PM »
I bought the XL and the Seneca adapter so I wouldn't have to try and make 25mm penetration for the mortise work.  I am still happy with that choice.  But when I make myself a new front door, I will not use pre-made dominos in it.  I hardly ever use them but have tenon stock on hand in a bunch of sizes that I made and use.  But for an exterior door, I would plunge on about 1/2 inch intervals to make oversize mortises and then make custom tenons to match.  In a 4 inch wide rail, I will probably use about a 3 inch wide tenon.  That will not solve the issue of the limited 25mm depth but would be stronger than multiple dominos IMHO.  3 inch wide by 2 inch long tenons in 10 mm might work.  Modern glues help a lot.  I once made an entire kitchen of cabinets that had only little 3/8 stub tenons made by a cope and stick bit.  They worked.  But if I make raised panel doors these days, I would not make them that light.