Author Topic: Any books or resources on trimming frameless (32mm) cabinets? (Read 2643 times)

Richard/RMW · « **on:** March 17, 2023, 11:09 AM »

I'm looking for resources specific to frameless (32mm systems) cabinet installations. I've got the basic boxes down to my satisfaction, & I've got a system for 32mm unhanded panels, box heights, etc.

What I need is education/inspiration on how to trim them out, details on termination at walls, inside/outside corners, transitions, etc. Basically, all the stuff that takes a boring set of 32mm plywood boxes and adds the "wow" factor. I want to learn how to create a closet or kitchen that would end up in a Dwell magazine photo spread.

I have an old book on using stock cabinets for built-ins, but it focuses on face-frame cabinets and is lacking the contemporary/modern look we want. When I search for this everything I get is also skewed towards more traditional styles. Absolutely zero interest in face-frame cabinets.

Appreciate any input, suggestions, or resources. Images are especially helpful as I try to communicate all this to the boss.

RMW

woodferret · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2023, 11:31 AM »

Pinning this thread. But in the meanwhile... this bookshelf uses a solid edging on what amounts to frameless cabs (time jump to faceframe).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hf6mo6EQB6Y?t=981

Also covers Zeta P2 and scribing.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2023, 12:05 PM »

Thanks @woodferret some great ideas in there.

~~Do the Tenso connectors only work with the Zeta? I could probably justify adding a less expensive biscuit joiner to the arsenal, but~~ the Zeta is outside my justifiability straight-face parameters... (Answered my own question, YT video showing how the blade lifts up/down to cut the outer rim slot. Oh well.)

Are there any similar fixing systems that don't include a $1,600 tool investment? I guess basic glue and biscuits or dominos.

RMW

squall_line · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2023, 12:37 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on March 17, 2023, 12:05 PM

Thanks @woodferret some great ideas in there.

~~Do the Tenso connectors only work with the Zeta? I could probably justify adding a less expensive biscuit joiner to the arsenal, but~~ the Zeta is outside my justifiability straight-face parameters... (Answered my own question, YT video showing how the blade lifts up/down to cut the outer rim slot. Oh well.)

Are there any similar fixing systems that don't include a $1,600 tool investment? I guess basic glue and biscuits or dominos.

RMW

Without a Zeta, I would say your best bet would be basic glue and biscuits or dominos, matched up with the wonderful discussion we recently had in another thread on building your own solid wood edge banding clips from spring clips and mountain bike inner tubes.

I wouldn't have a Zeta myself if I had any sort of self control. In my defense, I've used it at least once now, which is more than I can say for my 5 routers.

Michael Kellough · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2023, 12:49 PM »

Knapp has a large variety of connectors. This page is just stuff for biscuit mortises.

They have pages of other things as well. I think they have something similar to Clamex that you hammer into the slot.

Zeta and Clamex fittings allowed me to build a large pantry in a space where I could only bring in one flat part at a time. The ability to assemble and disassemble multiple times allowed me to get a good fit on each part. Not to mention that I wouldn’t have been able to manhandle the whole thing.

I bought an older used Zeta (in a wood box) a few years ago for around $1000. I too have that buy things I might really need, some time in the future, habit.

woodferret · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2023, 12:52 PM »

If you have a DF500, you can use the domino connectors too if these are drawer boxes. Otherwise tape or clamps.

tsmi243 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2023, 01:50 PM »

Quote from: Richard/RMW on March 17, 2023, 12:05 PM

~~Do the Tenso connectors only work with the Zeta?~~
RMW

No way to use the Tenso, AFAIK. But the Clamex can be done- it comes in two flavors. P-series uses the T-slot, which you can't do without a Zeta.

The S-series Clamex doesn't have the T-shape to it- they're a regular slip fit with pilot holes, so you screw them in place with tiny screws. The catch is, they're about twice the usual thickness- so you need to slap a shim on the fence of your biscuit joiner, and cut each slot twice. I don't recall the exact amount, but I wanna say a 3mm shim ended up being right on the money. It's definitely slower than a Zeta, 2 cuts per slot and you have to screw em in. But any biscuit cutter will work. And probably still faster than a Domino connector. And they're reversable.

Good thread. Exactly in line with my own projects right now.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2023, 03:03 PM »

Seems like some of my recent posts are haunting me a bit...

Thanks all. I do like the look of 2 carcasses joined by the ~36mm painted strip. Also saves edge banding all the bozes (anybody need some edge clamps?).

Keep it coming.

RMW

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2023, 03:08 PM »

Quote from: Michael Kellough on March 17, 2023, 12:49 PM

Knapp has a large variety of connectors. This page is just stuff for biscuit mortises.

I too have that buy things I might really need, some time in the future, habit.

The Knapp FAST connectors look interesting. I may pick up a sample pack and a cheap plate joiner and test them.

And yea, guilty as charged.

RMW

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 17, 2023, 06:14 PM »

There are all kinds of cool things you can add to basic frameless cabinets to improve functionality and have cool looks too.
You specifically mentioned inside corners. That is a great one. You can do one cabinet as a "blind corner" then there are several companies making rotating pull-out units that fit them. Way cooler than the old-fashioned lazy susan/ corner cabinet, and you can't have overlay doors with lazy susans, so they always look funny IMHO.
There are dozens of other pull-out units and even pull-down shelves for upper cabinets.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #10 on:** March 17, 2023, 07:53 PM »

On a side note, I love Amazon's search algorithm

Any books or resources on trimming frameless (32mm) cabinets?

RMW

squall_line · « **Reply #11 on:** March 17, 2023, 08:56 PM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on March 17, 2023, 06:14 PM

you can't have overlay doors with lazy susans, so they always look funny IMHO.

I mean, you CAN, but then you need a 2-piece door and extra hinges, and it still looks weird, just a different kind of weird.

xedos · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2023, 04:52 PM »

Quote

What I need is education/inspiration on how to trim them out, details on termination at walls, inside/outside corners, transitions, etc. Basically, all the stuff that takes a boring set of 32mm plywood boxes and adds the "wow" factor. I want to learn how to create a closet or kitchen that would end up in a Dwell magazine photo spread.

I think you're approaching this with a cluttered brain.

Euro cabinets have historically been made with the "less is more" mentality... They typically don't get a lot of trim or adornment /decorative fluff that one sees on American / Framed cabinets. Go back and look at those Dwell pics and tell us how many you see with heavy profiled raised panel doors, or three piece crown (or any crown) , or scribe molding, or shoe mold or........... it's also why many have no handles or knobs, and you have to hunt for where the fridge and disahwasher are hidden. And sometimes the oven and cooktop too !

They're typically flat panel doors, sometimes Shaker and usually rely on texture or pattern or color or exquisite exotic veneer work to add WoW. Sometimes metal or glass doors will compliment the kitchen for some sizzle. No one wants to call attention to a wall termination or corner. It's a necessary evil in most kitchens, but it's not a feature or highlight.

If you're doing this for yourself then you can do whatever you want. If it's for a customer you'll need to keep in mind that many/most will think your creation of thin quartzite veneered doors, or glass cabinets, or graphic print fronts is neat, new, fresh and cool - but they don't want them in their home. Especially at the price charged.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2023, 05:32 PM »

Quote from: xedos on March 18, 2023, 04:52 PM

Quote
What I need is education/inspiration on how to trim them out, details on termination at walls, inside/outside corners, transitions, etc. Basically, all the stuff that takes a boring set of 32mm plywood boxes and adds the "wow" factor. I want to learn how to create a closet or kitchen that would end up in a Dwell magazine photo spread.

I think you're approaching this with a cluttered brain.

Euro cabinets have historically been made with the "less is more" mentality... They typically don't get a lot of trim or adornment /decorative fluff that one sees on American / Framed cabinets. Go back and look at those Dwell pics and tell us how many you see with heavy profiled raised panel doors, or three piece crown (or any crown) , or scribe molding, or shoe mold or........... it's also why many have no handles or knobs, and you have to hunt for where the fridge and disahwasher are hidden. And sometimes the oven and cooktop too !

They're typically flat panel doors, sometimes Shaker and usually rely on texture or pattern or color or exquisite exotic veneer work to add WoW. Sometimes metal or glass doors will compliment the kitchen for some sizzle. No one wants to call attention to a wall termination or corner. It's a necessary evil in most kitchens, but it's not a feature or highlight.

If you're doing this for yourself then you can do whatever you want. If it's for a customer you'll need to keep in mind that many/most will think your creation of thin quartzite veneered doors, or glass cabinets, or graphic print fronts is neat, new, fresh and cool - but they don't want them in their home. Especially at the price charged.

My brain is often cluttered, and I think you simply misunderstood me. As stated, I'm not interested in a traditional look, i.e. crown molding or raised panels.

"Trim" to me includes simple profiles for joining the boxes and making transitions to the walls or the next box. Anything beyond the basic boxes is what I consider to be trim.

Thanks,

RMW

guybo · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2023, 06:47 PM »

Hi, we are settled on a all exposed ply kitchen,like below will run all cabs as close to walls and ceiling and trim. will also inset as shown with integrated hand pulls.Did this cab with overlay used cross member to stiffen and create room for a hand. will go with wood as exposed panels and laminate to cover drawers and doors. easy clean.

Lincoln · « **Reply #15 on:** March 18, 2023, 08:47 PM »

We do two types of wall scribe - flush with the face of the doors, or set back flush with the front of the cabinet box. We aim for a 18mm finished scribe, to match the thickness of the other panels. Usually use the same material as the doors, but sometimes with the 'setback' type of scribe we use MDF that gets painted when the walls get painted.
All of our carcases are made from pre-finished melamine board, with matching edge strip. Where an end is exposed, we apply a panel that matches the door style/material. We rarely cover the front edge of the panel with the door, rather see the thickness of the panel, then a 2mm margin to the door - this is why we try to match the scribe width to the panel thickness.
Edit: our fillers and panels are usually the same height as the cabinet, with the kicker face running into the wall, or at an exposed end, the kicker mitres and returns.

tjbnwi · « **Reply #16 on:** March 18, 2023, 09:13 PM »

This is how we handle euro’s. When I’m at the shop tomorrow I’ll get pictures of the fillers we send out that get scribed.

At the wall is a filler that is “L” shaped. The leg to the cabinet is 5” deep to cover the toe area. The “L” to the wall is 1.5” which gets scribed. The face of the filler is set flush to the face of the doors/drawer faces. Make sure you adjust the doors/drawers prior to doing the filler.

The free end receives a panel. The front edge is set to the face of the door/drawer faces. Again adjust prior to scribing the panel to the wall.

Both get screwed in place from inside the cabinet.

The crown/top we also use an “L” shaped piece. Sorry no picture.

For inside corners an “L” also works, just make sure you size for door/drawer face and hardware clearance.

EDIT;

As you are planning fillers and panels you have to consider any trim that will die into the filler.

Tom

Oldwood · « **Reply #17 on:** March 19, 2023, 10:59 AM »

We make our scribe fillers in 2 pieces and glue them up after they have been fitted. We use dominos or plates either will work. I keep the plywood short on both ends so it will not hang up on the kick or show below the uppers. We fasten the on with screws from inside the cabinet after they are scribed and glued up

We hold the filler flush with the inside of the cabinet then set the scribe to the width of the gable so it will fit to the outside when fitted. A helper to hold the filler is good for this.

If it is wood we use masking tape if it is a solid colour we will just mark the filler. We use 1.125" wide as a minimum but the swing of the door and the amount of handle protrusion sometimes dictate a wider filler.

The top mould should step out enough so the fillers can die into them without having to be flush. We 1/8" radius the back and front of doors.

Square inside corners need to be offset enough so handles don't interfere with drawers or doors. We use the same system of ply and wood to match the faces as the fillers.

Oldwood · « **Reply #18 on:** March 19, 2023, 11:27 AM »

I agree with those who don't like the 90 degree lazy susans. If a LS was required we mostly went with an 45 angled front. That allows for a full round LS. You give the thing a spin grab the peanut butter when it came by and close the door while it is still spinning.

We have used the magic corner hardware and it works well. Inside corners are tough to design around sometimes. If it is a peninsula you can have a drawer bank or door cabinet opening into the other side if the counter overhang allows it.

We allow our end panels extra width to scribe to the wall also.

Extra wide fridge panels are a nice feature and support a full depth cabinet over the fridge and give the counter a good spot to end on. Some of these pictures are not what I would call contemporary but the details are the same regardless of the style. They are all frameless.

The dishwasher and fridge panels make a nice unified look but some are pretty complicated to install.

I have included a picture of a European style kitchen we did that was trimmed out to mimic inset face frame. The fride and freezer drawers have panels and there is a bank of 2 fridge and 2 freezer drawers on the right. Because of the panels they fit right in and don't break up the continuity of the kitchen.

The lift up doors work well as appliance garages. The island in this kitchen was 1.75" out of level. With ladder kicks you can deal with that but you need to be concerned about the opening for the dishwasher to insure there are no issues installing it. We leveled the kick out from the dishwasher shimming and on direction and trimming in the other.

Frameless is a very versatile system and there are lots of options for trimming out.
'

woodferret · « **Reply #19 on:** March 19, 2023, 11:55 AM »

Since we've well bastardized what frameless mean

we might as well dig deeper.

Dunno if you follow NSBuilders or the new millwork side Materia

For their closet, it has the applied filler offset trick as in the previous posted video, but also introduces the other option of an L filler. On another note, the larger 18ft bank of cabinets just use a chamfer to make the 3/4-3/4 seam more intentional in lieu of a combined face frame. Something worth considering if one does not want to additional overhead of building a face-frame.

It all comes down to whether seams are acceptable for your design.

They also have a video on scribing around sinks, returns, etc. Mostly I think they like the integrated face frame (regardless of traditional or euro style look-feel) because it lets them build and fit everything in the shop.

The RAS is your friend (too bad we can't get one

)

xedos · « **Reply #20 on:** March 19, 2023, 05:43 PM »

Quote

"Trim" to me includes simple profiles for joining the boxes and making transitions to the walls or the next box. Anything beyond the basic boxes is what I consider to be trim.

Thanks,

RMW

Don't think I mis-understood you at all. I simply think you're not fully onboard the Euro train. There are NO PROFILES for joining boxes, simple or otherwise. The carcasses get screwed together and they're done. The face / plane of the door or drawer front(s) simple continue in one plane - that's the transition. when you get to a corner or a end wall you use a profile filler (to match your door and continue the plane) that is scribed to the wall just like you would a framed stile.

So, "trim" for you will be a profile filler and toekick that usually clips onto leveling legs - though practically no one installing euro will call that stuff "trim" Tom's two pics show how ends are handled by 99% of Euro cabinet makers.

here's one we did a few years back with , smoked glass uppers 3/4" end panels on the left with profiled fillers on the right scribed approx 1" wide. Notice the wine cooler doors are flush / in plane with the cabinet door fronts. pretty much the same as Tom's except it's lacquer and glass instead of veneer.

2nd pic is an inside corner treatment.

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #21 on:** March 19, 2023, 07:50 PM »

Quote from: xedos on March 19, 2023, 05:43 PM

Quote
"Trim" to me includes simple profiles for joining the boxes and making transitions to the walls or the next box. Anything beyond the basic boxes is what I consider to be trim.

Thanks,

RMW

Don't think I mis-understood you at all. I simply think you're not fully onboard the Euro train. There are NO PROFILES for joining boxes, simple or otherwise. The carcasses get screwed together and they're done. The face / plane of the door or drawer front(s) simple continue in one plane - that's the transition. when you get to a corner or a end wall you use a profile filler (to match your door and continue the plane) that is scribed to the wall just like you would a framed stile.

So, "trim" for you will be a profile filler and toekick that usually clips onto leveling legs - though practically no one installing euro will call that stuff "trim" Tom's two pics show how ends are handled by 99% of Euro cabinet makers.

here's one we did a few years back with , smoked glass uppers 3/4" end panels on the left with profiled fillers on the right scribed approx 1" wide. Notice the wine cooler doors are flush / in plane with the cabinet door fronts. pretty much the same as Tom's except it's lacquer and glass instead of veneer.

2nd pic is an inside corner treatment.

Then I must have misstated my question, read "trim" as the act of finishing and making transitions.

Thanks to everyone for the input and ideas. Rather than screwing the carcasses together in an unbroken line I'm leaning towards adding a filler similar to the base cabinets in the Keith Johnson video. Something to break up the continuous plane of doors/drawer fronts.

I do have one tricky transition to drywall where the boss wants to continue the material we are using for end panels/doors/drawers across a short section of wall (like paneling) to an outside corner, and her idea is to end the panel in line with the drywall corner and blend it in. I'll post a sketch later to make this more understandable, but to me this looks like a problem waiting for me to make it happen.

To be clear, this is a closet install, so there won't be any dead corners for lazy susan type solutions. It's a pretty simple "J" layout starting and ending in a finished panel, + a short section starting from a wall (inside corner) to the outside corner drywall mentioned above. The flat panel area would have a wall mirror, and perhaps hooks for belts, etc.

Again, thanks for all the input. I need to go back and digest everything, which will probably lead to some more questions.

RMW

tjbnwi · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2023, 08:09 PM »

This is how we assemble the fillers. The tall piece is probably a capitol.

New miter lock head, I see I have to adjust the shim stack.

Tom

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #23 on:** March 19, 2023, 08:16 PM »

Quote from: tjbnwi on March 19, 2023, 08:09 PM

This is how we assemble the fillers. The tall piece is probably a capitol.

New miter lock head, I see I have to adjust the shim stack.

Tom

Thanks Tom, that makes it easy to visualize. The nuance of making them deep enough to cover the toe kick is a great tip, Easy to overlook as a neophyte.

RMW

tjbnwi · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2023, 08:25 PM »

You’re welcome.

Tom

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #25 on:** March 20, 2023, 11:24 AM »

Here's the area I'm most uncertain how to handle. (Ignore the wire shelving, they were tossed in there at the end of construction as "temporary" around 12 years ago..., I'm determined to have this looking good for the next owners.)

We are discussing replacing the shelves with 2 tall built-ins, then extending the upper carcasses over the mirror to the drywall corner. SWMBO wants to panel the wall below the high cabinets with the same material, making the transition back to drywall exactly at the corner bead.

I can see making a panel like Tom's fillers and then trying to scribe it to the drywall corner, but I'm skeptical I can pull this off without something looking wonky. I haven't checked yet to see if the wall is plumb, but framers...

My preference is to hold the panel back off the corner slightly, but I don't think that will look great either. Haven't wrapped my mind around how I finish off the upper cabinet in relation to the lower panel either, as that would end at the same corner. The easy thing might be a floor-to-ceiling end panel, but that corner is where we make the turn into the closet and I'm reluctant to have a panel stick out into the space.

I appreciate any thoughts on this.

RMW

guybo · « **Reply #26 on:** March 20, 2023, 12:32 PM »

Why not have a little Fun with 80/20

or more fun

4nthony · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2023, 12:45 PM »

Quote from: guybo on March 20, 2023, 12:32 PM

Why not have a little Fun with 80/20 or more fun

I was thinking something similar as well.

I really like the look of the Finn-Juhl panel walls. You could put a combination of cabinets and shelves. On the left side, open shelving could prevent the need to scribe any kind of filler piece. A mirror could be integrated into the panel as well. Alter the proportions to fit your space.

https://finnjuhl.com/collection/shelving-and-panel-systems/panel-system

guybo · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2023, 12:50 PM »

thats nice and clean, on my short list is a domino kerf wall for keys and mail

Richard/RMW · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2023, 01:17 PM »

Quote from: guybo on March 20, 2023, 12:32 PM

Why not have a little Fun with 80/20 or more fun

I see what you did there...

Seriously though, worth considering something like that. Thanks.

RMW