Author Topic: six-point socket's tidbits of Home Improvement, small projects and other stuff.  (Read 180601 times)

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Offline six-point socket II

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Sounds like great memories, Cheese! It's remarkable what a single, little item can trigger, memory wise. :)

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

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Offline six-point socket II

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Wow! You have the lot.. almost! [blink]
I remember the jigsaw, but it’s not around anymore. I recognise the table saw attachment, that one also gone. So yes I remember. AEG had (maybe first) similar to Festool CMS system, all high quality.

I used to use that particular drill to polish my cars, my first encounter with constant speed electronics - it was in fact THE only drill I found which was controllable with the constant speed control when polishing at lower speeds. And the sound it makes 😎, it oozes quality.

When I bought my house, I was among many other things left with the AEG sander attachment - I’ll post a pic tomorrow  [wink]

Edit: Pics of the missing Schwing-schleifer:
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)

Wow, only saw the added pictures as of now. That is amazing, Stig! I've never seen that one before, as we always had the sander I provided the pictures of.

Thanks for sharing!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

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So today, I picked up my GRK Fasteners FIN/TRIM from customs.



And I had to drain the air from part of the heating system, as it had some air inside that was impossible to drain over that little valve. I needed to remove more water from the system in order for the air to get out. I improvised with some 1/2" screw fittings and a garden hose connector ... Worked miracles, now the bathroom radiator is getting warm again.




And, since I broke my last manual caulking gun - as pictured - on Saturday, I got a new one.

It makes a great first impression! Very balanced, sturdy and smooth action.








Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

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Yesterday and today I did some cleaning, so the plumber won't have to wade through spiders and spiderwebs behind the oil tank.

Perfect time to illustrate what will be done.

You have seen these pictures before:







That's the main water line, coming from the left, and goes into the boiler room, where everything is distributed.

This is what it looks like from inside the boiler room, before it is distributed into the already renewed composite pipe system.








So everything steel/zinc will get replaced.


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Online jobsworth

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  • Festool Baby.....
Curious Oliver, what are you going to replace it with?

Offline six-point socket II

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@jobsworth

Composite pipes (in the right dimension, 25 or 32 probably) by "Fraenkische" -> Alpex F50 Profi

Link: https://www.fraenkische.com/en/product/alpex-f50-profi-presssystem

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2002
Is that a crimp type fitting similar to Viega Pro-press or toolless connection like a Shark-bite?

https://www.viega.us/en/products/innovations/viega-propress.html

https://www.sharkbite.com/
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline six-point socket II

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Hi Bob,

it's a crimp type fitting comparable to Viega ProPress.



Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 219
Oliver, that looks like the same system my plumber used when he installed the water softener.  The tooling looks identical.
I asked him about the tubing and fittings that the Toom sells, which I thought was form, fit, and function the same as what he used.  He smiled and told me he gets a lot of business redoing the plumbing installation to replace the DIY work, but wouldn't elaborate on whether it was the quality of the material or the workmanship.  He told me the basement of one house, not far from mine, looked like a U-boat that had been hit when every joint started leaking the day after the homeowner installed the lines.

Offline six-point socket II

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Hi Mike,

Toom sells Wiroflex/WiroPress. I have never used that. But as with all of those crimp type fittings, you need the right tool. So if a homeowner cheaps out, renting or buying the "wrong" type tool and/or insert(s)/die(s), he won't get it to seat and seal properly. It might work at first, but with a sudden surge of pressure (closing a valve) or even closing a single lever faucet (which are notorious for this) it might rip apart. Also if the flexible composite pipes are not cut to a precise 90° degree, it might not seat and seal properly. Not to speak of people trying to improvise the tool and or die.

That's why I like to have a plumber do it. He has the right tool(s), die(s) and knows when something feels "off" while crimping.

I thought about renting the correct kit, but it's not worth it if you really flood your basement. I mean a heating system has a couple of liters water in it, once it's out - it's out - and it still would be a mess but manageable. But the main water line, under constant pressure. That's food for a great movie if one gets it wrong while DIY'ing. lol. ;) So yeah, I fully side with your plumber. As I hired one to do this as well. ;)

Kind regards,
Oliver

« Last Edit: September 04, 2020, 05:11 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 219
Hi Oliver,
My basement is below grade with no floor drains.  Any leaks or ruptures would have dire consequences for me, so like you, I hire the professionals.  I don't want to take any chances with insurance claims when asked who installed the plumbing.
I was in the UK earlier this year and shipped back a Belfast sink (a huge lump of porcelain) to use in the basement as part of my sharpening station for woodworking tools.  This will require new cold water feed and a pump to move the waste water up about a meter so the drain pipe can connect into the drain that services the washing machine and water softener.  I was considering doing this, then thought better about it and will let the plumber run the piping as soon as I build the sink cabinets.

Online jobsworth

  • Posts: 6671
  • Festool Baby.....
@jobsworth

Composite pipes (in the right dimension, 25 or 32 probably) by "Fraenkische" -> Alpex F50 Profi

Link: https://www.fraenkische.com/en/product/alpex-f50-profi-presssystem

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thats a pretty slick set up. I havent seen that before. But then technology has changed so quickly and so much theres a lot out there that i havent seen.

 Thats why i asked.

 Thanks for the info

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 78
I repiped my whole house using PEX poly tubing and crimp ring fittings a couple years ago.  After a few workbench practice joints on scrap things went really well.  I purchased 1/2” and 3/4” specific crimping tools and a “go-no go” measurement tool.  For me the key was to keep tool perpendicular to pipe and happily remove any crimp rings that did not pass.  (The temptation is to interpret  a “no go” measurement as “maybe”)

By far and away the least swearing (and drinking) I’ve ever done while involved in a plumbing project. It was really easy and almost fun.

Offline six-point socket II

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Yes, it sure beats using hemp & sealant (fermit) on screwed connections, or soldering.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

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Just for the record, this is what a connection to the old steel/zinc pipes looks like.



Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

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By far and away the least swearing (and drinking) I’ve ever done while involved in a plumbing project. It was really easy and almost fun.

Until you're a couple of years further down the road and have to make adjustments. Then you'll really know what swearing is.

All this plastic stuff is fine when you're doing a new install, but wait till you'll have to repair something or change a coupling. Then you're not so happy anymore. I severely dislike these plastic pipes.

Offline six-point socket II

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... or if the wrong dimensions were used. These are exceptionally smaller on the inside compared to outside diameter ... Especially also inside couplings and connectors.

But then again, cracking open those steel/zinc pipe screwed connections for replacing or adding something isn't exactly easy or "safe" either. My plumber won't crack them open if he can't access the whole pipe, for fears of breaking the pipe and causing a massive problem.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Vtshopdog

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Until you're a couple of years further down the road and have to make adjustments. Then you'll really know what swearing is.

All this plastic stuff is fine when you're doing a new install, but wait till you'll have to repair something or change a coupling. Then you're not so happy anymore. I severely dislike these plastic pipes.
[/quote]

Alex, for future reference what kind of issues should I expect to encounter? 

(So far everything I’ve done has been way easier than mucking with my old rusty threaded galvanized piping)

Online hdv

  • Posts: 299
A serious question: why do people hate soldering so much? I am not trying to be obtuse here. What am I missing? I've always much preferred soldering over the other available solutions. But reading all these messages makes me wonder if I might be wrong about it. Why do you guys think the alternatives are better? About the only reason I can think of is when using flexible pipes not made of metal. But other than that?

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2002
On soldering I don't know the answer. I have always found it easy and reliable. And when you're done it looks good too. I am not a plumber but I have soldered copper tube and pipe from 8" on down to 1/8", most of it for control air used in industrial settings and medical gas systems in hospitals. I know I have done over 100 joints a day many times on various jobs.

It's not the easiest to take apart if changes are needed but it can be done and the fittings are usually reusable which is good considering their cost today. Which is probably one of the biggest complaints, the cost of a copper system will be much higher than most others, and it takes longer to install. Another factor is what is the process fluid, copper is not always the best material to use. Plus you have to be good at soldering. If you're not and have a lot of leaks (even one a day) then you'll hate it. But with the right tools and technique not a problem.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Svar

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A serious question: why do people hate soldering so much? I am not trying to be obtuse here. What am I missing?
Whenever I do it it always happens in super confined space with plenty of flammable material around.  [sad]
I've done repairs with pipes still dripping because water could not be shut off completely. Try that with soldering.
Also, PEX is very forgiving with turns and various adjustments.

Offline HarveyWildes

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...
All this plastic stuff is fine when you're doing a new install, but wait till you'll have to repair something or change a coupling. Then you're not so happy anymore. I severely dislike these plastic pipes.


I had pex put in a new house 13 years ago.  I've had no problems with the pipe material, but two plumbing issues that required repairs:
  • About three years ago I punched a hole in the middle of a pex pipe with a nail gun while finishing the basement.  Time to fix - ~5 minutes, but they still charged me for the travel.  Served me right.  Quality of fix, perfect so far.
  • I had a hose spigot go bad last year.  Time to fix the copper fitting at the spigot - ~30 minutes to detach the copper elbow from the spigot and reattach it to the new spigot - in all fairness, part of that was deciding what to do.  About 5 minutes to reattach the copper elbow to the pex.  Quality of overall fix, perfect so far.
So I can't fault the quality of pex or the ease of repair at this point.


On the other hand, I had non-pex plastic in a 1979 mobile home a while back that was terrible.  The constant expansion and contraction of the aluminum crimping rings on hot water pipes caused several joints to fail 2-3 years after the manufacturing date, with some water damage each time.


I'm not sure how many copper options there are, but there are a bunch of plastic options, and clearly some are better than others.  I've had good luck with the pex tubing that my plumber used, but I'd also recommend that you do your homework on plastic if you choose to use it.  I also have to admit that I would feel better about pex if someone was able to say that they had a 50 year old house with pex that was trouble free.  But so far, at least, my experience has been that the pex itself is trouble free :) .
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 01:23 AM by HarveyWildes »

Online hdv

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Thanks for enlightening me. I can see trying to solder very cold or wet pipes being a problem. Never been in that situation (yet), so I didn't think of that. I am definitely not in the same league as Bob D, but I did a fair bit of soldering including repairs and never got to hate it. Sometimes I have had to fiddle around with a heat shield and sometimes the smell is not nice, but that's it in my experience. I always did all the plumping in my houses myself. But I have to admit I didn't when I had my current home built. This one is made from wood (logs imported from Finland) and had too much movement in it during the first few years when the construction was still settling itself (almost 10 cm shrinkage in the first story during the first 5 years, now there's almost no movement anymore). Therefore we choose to use flexible piping this time. However, I didn't do that myself. Maybe it's time to update my skills, eh?   [wink] 

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 219
I also have to admit that I would feel better about pex if someone was able to say that they had a 50 year old house with pex that was trouble free.  But so far, at least, my experience has been that the pex itself is trouble free :) .

All of my plumbing modifications, through my plumber, are with the new technology.  At 63, I don't have a 50-year horizon for the changes.  [big grin]

Offline six-point socket II

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A serious question: why do people hate soldering so much? I am not trying to be obtuse here. What am I missing? I've always much preferred soldering over the other available solutions. But reading all these messages makes me wonder if I might be wrong about it. Why do you guys think the alternatives are better? About the only reason I can think of is when using flexible pipes not made of metal. But other than that?

On soldering I don't know the answer. I have always found it easy and reliable. And when you're done it looks good too. I am not a plumber but I have soldered copper tube and pipe from 8" on down to 1/8", most of it for control air used in industrial settings and medical gas systems in hospitals. I know I have done over 100 joints a day many times on various jobs.

It's not the easiest to take apart if changes are needed but it can be done and the fittings are usually reusable which is good considering their cost today. Which is probably one of the biggest complaints, the cost of a copper system will be much higher than most others, and it takes longer to install. Another factor is what is the process fluid, copper is not always the best material to use. Plus you have to be good at soldering. If you're not and have a lot of leaks (even one a day) then you'll hate it. But with the right tools and technique not a problem.

A serious question: why do people hate soldering so much? I am not trying to be obtuse here. What am I missing?
Whenever I do it it always happens in super confined space with plenty of flammable material around.  [sad]
I've done repairs with pipes still dripping because water could not be shut off completely. Try that with soldering.
Also, PEX is very forgiving with turns and various adjustments.

...
All this plastic stuff is fine when you're doing a new install, but wait till you'll have to repair something or change a coupling. Then you're not so happy anymore. I severely dislike these plastic pipes.


I had pex put in a new house 13 years ago.  I've had no problems with the pipe material, but two plumbing issues that required repairs:
  • About three years ago I punched a hole in the middle of a pex pipe with a nail gun while finishing the basement.  Time to fix - ~5 minutes, but they still charged me for the travel.  Served me right.  Quality of fix, perfect so far.
  • I had a hose spigot go bad last year.  Time to fix the copper fitting at the spigot - ~30 minutes to detach the copper elbow from the spigot and reattach it to the new spigot - in all fairness, part of that was deciding what to do.  About 5 minutes to reattach the copper elbow to the pex.  Quality of overall fix, perfect so far.
So I can't fault the quality of pex or the ease of repair at this point.


On the other hand, I had non-pex plastic in a 1979 mobile home a while back that was terrible.  The constant expansion and contraction of the aluminum crimping rings on hot water pipes caused several joints to fail 2-3 years after the manufacturing date, with some water damage each time.


I'm not sure how many copper options there are, but there are a bunch of plastic options, and clearly some are better than others.  I've had good luck with the pex tubing that my plumber used, but I'd also recommend that you do your homework on plastic if you choose to use it.  I also have to admit that I would feel better about pex if someone was able to say that they had a 50 year old house with pex that was trouble free.  But so far, at least, my experience has been that the pex itself is trouble free :) .

Please excuse the full quotes, but I'd like my answer to be read in full context.

Let me give a bit of a back story here:

When we had new pipes installed for the master bathroom, guest bathroom, kitchen and backyard we got multiple quotes. None of the quotes included soldered copper pipes. Copper pipes, yes, but also crimped. The piping for flow and return that connect to the furnace/heating are crimped copper as well.

The plumber we went with had offered the composite pipes (Fraenkische Alpex F50 Profi) and we never questioned that.

What they say about the composite pipes is that they are incredible smooth on the inside, so chalk doesn't stand a chance to accumulate/"grow" inside these - plus they are entirely non-reactive to other materials. Given that there were still steel/zinc pipes, and even some copper/red brass/red bronze type fittings within the line this was said to be a good solution.

Now up until a year ago, we had zero trouble with this installation. Now you might remember that I had some serious issues with some high-end faucets - but not with the composite installation itself. A year ago, we started noticing that water pressure would drop immensely if two faucets were open(ed) at the same time. Especially noticeable while washing your hands after having used the restroom. The tank fills and once it is full, you get noticeably more water from the faucet.

When I changed the faucets in the laundry room, I noticed how small the actual diameters of the piping and connectors is. With the much bigger steel/zinc pipes being feed by such small lines I suddenly understood (part) of the problem. But I always wondered why it would happen only after years of unquestionable behavior of the installation. (I hope to find an answer, once the feeding lines are upgraded to bigger diameters.)

Besides that, and this per my new plumber is a dimensioning/design problem i.e. not a problem of the composite pipes per se, I have nothing bad to say about the composite installation. And also the connected copper (crimped) installation leading into the backyard and to the "driveway"/ front of the house are trouble free.

So that said, we never had a soldered copper installation offered in first place.

Hate is such a harsh word, I can't, and I would never say I hate soldered copper pipes. But I have seen enough botched jobs to understand why there might be a certain dislike among people/customers and trades people/ plumbers/hvac techs.

Looking at Bob's picture, thats simply beautiful and if you can get such a result, every time, it's indeed nothing left to wish for.

I think the main factors are:

- cost/time efficiency, as it's highly economical
- if crimped/ installed as instructed you get a sealed connection every time. No after thoughts, and there is almost no learning curve. Do it once or twice and you know how to do it. (Proper tooling assumed) It's something even the youngest apprentice on the crew can get right in no time.
- I personally know someone who had to quit/cancel his apprenticeship because he got allergic reactions to the soldering fumes and it is (was?) still required when taking the final, practical exam/test. He literally had to throw away almost 3 years of his life because of this.
- It's marketed very well. I have been to trade shows, and tried the different systems out of curiosity - one thing all of the manufacturers have in common, they market this as the meets end-all perfect solution. And of course, they "love" this because it's highly proprietary, you can't mix connectors and have to buy adaptors/specialized connectors if you want to pass over to a different type system. Not to forget the specialized tooling, and then all of the dies. (Each diameter has it's own die, and then every system has it's own dies.)

Coming back to soldering, I think the main issue is that not everyone gets it done as fantastic as Bob does, judging by the picture. I have seen so many pipes messed up/ covered with runs of solder, solder coming out of the connectors and the like. I guess, if you are one of the guys that "get it" and who like doing it getting great to fantastic results - you won't have much reasons to change over to composite pipes or crimping in general. But I guess many people consider it heaven sent, not ever having to touch the soldering iron again if they can help it.

So really, no "hate" here. :)

Oh, and there's another system. In German it's called "Klemmring". It's a screwed down clamp connection for aluminum-composite pipes. And of course "Schneidring" -> cutting ring. Found on small diameter copper pipes.


Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Online hdv

  • Posts: 299
@six-point socket II: rest assured it was by no means meant as a negative comment!

I just was genuinely curious as to why people so much prefer the more modern solutions over soldering. Having them in my own house for the reason stated I really *do* see their benefits. It is just that, to me, soldering feels easier and aesthetically more appealing. But you are right: dislike is definitely a more fitting choice of words than "hate". Not only has it less negative connotations, but it reflects my wonderment better as well. Thanks for improving my language skills with that suggestion.

Offline TwelvebyTwenty

  • Posts: 107
Copper is better. The other options have their place for quick fixes or where a DIYer doesn't have the skill to install copper, but in all other applications copper is the tried and trusted option for domestic. Commercial can be a different story depending on exact circumstances. 
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 09:51 AM by TwelvebyTwenty »

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 78
One of my favorite features of my PEX system are these copper manifolds.  They are supplied by larger diameter service lines and have individually valved hot and cold lines to various parts of the house (kitchen, washer, each bathroom etc). I can easily shut off any isolated part of the house I wish.  Generally flow rates do not drop when using multiple faucets at same time as the large supply lines to manifolds are properly sized.

With some planning I was also able to minimize length of hot water runs by locating manifolds in a central spot which reduces energy use.  (When the manifold is warmed up from hot water use in kitchen warm water also arrives to bathroom sooner)  Additionally the poly tubes have lower heat transfer and static water in poly tube will cool more slowly so we use less water waiting for hot to arrive.  Not a huge deal, but nice here in my water scarce region.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 10:08 AM by Vtshopdog »

Offline six-point socket II

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@six-point socket II: rest assured it was by no means meant as a negative comment!

I just was genuinely curious as to why people so much prefer the more modern solutions over soldering. Having them in my own house for the reason stated I really *do* see their benefits. It is just that, to me, soldering feels easier and aesthetically more appealing. But you are right: dislike is definitely a more fitting choice of words than "hate". Not only has it less negative connotations, but it reflects my wonderment better as well. Thanks for improving my language skills with that suggestion.

Rest assured as well, I didn't take your question as a negative comment. :) All good!

I like it when a discussion evolves in this thread, as we can all only learn from each other!

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1607
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer - 22/02/21 inactive.
One of my favorite features of my PEX system are these copper manifolds.  They are supplied by larger diameter service lines and have individually valved hot and cold lines to various parts of the house (kitchen, washer, each bathroom etc). I can easily shut off any isolated part of the house I wish.  Generally flow rates do not drop when using multiple faucets at same time as the large supply lines to manifolds are properly sized.

With some planning I was also able to minimize length of hot water runs by locating manifolds in a central spot which reduces energy use.  (When the manifold is warmed up from hot water use in kitchen warm water also arrives to bathroom sooner)  Additionally the poly tubes have lower heat transfer and static water in poly tube will cool more slowly so we use less water waiting for hot to arrive.  Not a huge deal, but nice here in my water scarce region.

(Attachment Link)

Now that's an interesting piece. I have never seen something like it before! Can you maybe post a link to the manufacturer, I'd love to read the description or installation instructions.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International