Author Topic: Veritas flush cutting Chisels  (Read 3671 times)

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Offline ear3

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2019, 08:07 AM »
Haven't used them yet at all -- right now I'm building the interior casework for the Japanese tansu, and so haven't faced any issues that these chisels would solve.  But hopefully will get to use them soon.  I do still have to sharpen them though.

I was a bit surprised though that they weren't prepped in the way that LV blades usually come.  The edges aren't dull, but they are nowhere near as sharp as, say, the plane blades you get from LV, which usually only require a slight honing to create a keen edge.  I'm going to have to work these chisels on a stone first to get the right edge.

They helpfully include a screw and fender washer that makes it easy to hang the blades, so I guess I don't have need now for the roll that was included with the set, in case anyone wants it.
@ear3, Nice storage!
Have you gotten the chance to try them out yet?  Did they meet your expectations in use?  Any unexpected pluses or minuses?
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Offline derekcohen

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2019, 12:32 PM »
Quote
I was a bit surprised though that they weren't prepped in the way that LV blades usually come.  The edges aren't dull, but they are nowhere near as sharp as, say, the plane blades you get from LV, which usually only require a slight honing to create a keen edge.  I'm going to have to work these chisels on a stone first to get the right edge.

I find comments like this rather strange. No chisel or plane blade comes from a manufacturer honed to a level that any serious woodworker would consider "sharp". You are expected to sharpen them ... and when they become dull, sharpen them again. [blink]

Regards from Perth

Derek


Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4172
Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2019, 12:39 PM »
There are various degrees of “ready to sharpen”.

A cutting tool that is delivered “nearly sharp” is surely more valuable (all else being the same) than one that requires even more work before it’s usable.

I find information about the condition of the delivered edge to be useful rather than strange.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2019, 06:23 PM »
There are various degrees of “ready to sharpen”.

A cutting tool that is delivered “nearly sharp” is surely more valuable (all else being the same) than one that requires even more work before it’s usable.

I find information about the condition of the delivered edge to be useful rather than strange.


Well said.  I wish that Lee Valley in particular would be more specific about exactly what is need to hone a blade from the factory to a keen edge.


Lie Nielsen is specific.  Their sharpening instructions brochure specifies starting to prep a factory chisel or plane blade with a 1000 grit stone on the back and the bevel, and finish up around 6000-8000 grit.  That tells me exactly what to expect.  For instance, if I could tell that the back was not flat at 1000 grit, I'd send it back - I've never had to do that with a Lie Nielsen plane blade or chisel.  And with the steel that Lie Nielsen uses, 1000 grit is not "slight", but at least I know what to expect.


I can't find similar info on the Lee Valley site.  However, when Lee Valley sends out a chisel or plane blade and says that the back just needs "at most a light polishing" before use, I'm not sure what that means.  Light polishing to me means 6000-8000 grit.  Any time I have to polish the back, that is more than just honing, so I tend to think that Lee valley is telling me that they have polished the back to 6000-8000 grit already, and all I need to do a little polishing if I want better than that, and a little honing of the edge on the bevel, perhaps to take out a burr or just spruce it up a bit before using it.  Veritas PMV-11 blades come with a dull look, but for that, they do look like they have been polished to better than 1000 grit to begin with.  I just can't shake the feeling that I'm being too optimistic, though, so I tend to treat a new PMV-11 blade like a new Lie Nielsen chisel and start at 1000 grit.  Is that overkill?  Am I making my life too hard with new PMV-11 tools by basically redoing the polishing that Lee Valley has already done?  I can't tell.


So given that bit of angst, the comments from @ear3 make sense to me.  It tells me that I might have to work a little harder on the flush cutting chisels to get them to the level of a PMV-11 bench chisel out of the box.  In my mind, Lee Valley could clear things up by just clearly stating what their expectations are for first use prep of their PMV-11 blades.  Do I start "slight honing before first use" at 1000, 4000, or 8000 grit (or whatever...).  Then we could just follow the instructions and judge whether they worked well on specific tools or not.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2019, 06:45 PM by HarveyWildes »

Offline Birdhunter

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2019, 08:54 PM »
If I were selling an expensive product like a plane or chisel, I’d send it to the customer as sharp as it could possibly be with the back optically flat. Yes, the buyer must resharpen, but it ought to come out of the box perfectly sharp. If the product cost 10 percent more, that’s fine. Just my opinion.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2019, 09:17 PM »
The flushing chisels, like other PM-V11 bench chisels, are dead flat at within 0.0005".

The Lee Valley PM-V11 plane blades arrived with a warning label about their sharpness. Seasoned users all have their own definition of what sharp is. I am happy with the final honing with 8,000x (water stone) to 10,000x (diamond lapping film). Blades do not come sharp out of the box like that, but the work required to take a new PM-V11 to that level of sharpness can take very little time, depending on the userès skill and equipmentéset-up.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2019, 12:20 AM »
The flushing chisels, like other PM-V11 bench chisels, are dead flat at within 0.0005".
...


Yep - I've never had a problem with either Lie Nielsen or Lee Valley when it comes to flatness.


I did a little math.  0.0005" is about 12.8 microns, which is about what a 1200 grit waterstone provides.  That means that the roughest possible polish on the back of a factory PMV-11 blade or chisel is what I could get from a 1200 grit waterstone.  It could be much better than that since I assume that the polish must be at least as good as the flatness spec.  It would be nice to know.


Polishing a chisel back takes a long time, and it doesn't do much good to hone the edge to 8000 grit if the back hasn't also been polished to 8000 grit.  If the Veritas chisel backs are polished to 1200 grit at the factory, I want to take the time and effort to polish the backs before using them.  On the other hand, if they are already polished to 8000 grit, then I shouldn't have to do anything except a light hone on the edge.  This is not just a theoretical exercise - I have a set of the Lee Valley bench chisels and I've only done the prep work on the ones that I've needed to use because I don't know where to start.  The ones that I have prepped, I've started at around 1000, so it sounds like at least I can skip that and go right to something reasonable between 1200 and 8000 - maybe 4000.  And if Lee Valley said, nope, they are already polished to 4000 or 8000, I'd be even happier.


I suppose that the effort to polish the backs really only applies to chisels if you are comfortable using the ruler trick with plane blades.  Since I just learned about the ruler trick a few months ago (on this forum - thanks folks :) ), I don't have much experience with it.  I've already polished the backs of the plane blades that I use frequently.


Interestingly, Lie Nielsen says to start with a 1000 grit waterstone for their chisels and blades, so Lee Valley may have something of an advantage here if they are truly already polished to 1200 grit.


Does anyone know what some of the other higher end chisel manufacturers recommend - Blue Spruce, for example.  I've use Record (now Irwin), Stanley Sweetheart, and Sorby chisels (both rosewood and octagonal boxwood handles), and I would have to say that they are all second tier compared to Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen for flat (and in general).  They were all a pain to flatten.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 12:33 AM by HarveyWildes »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1193
Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2019, 01:02 AM »
Extracted from the product instructions:

As noted above, the faces of the bench chisels are factory lapped to be flat within 0.0005". As such, no lapping is required by the user. At most, a fine polishing is all that should be done to this surface. Note that the flatness of these chisels is well within the tolerance of most commercially available straightedges.

Breaking the Side Edges

The  lapped  face  of  the  chisel  blade  is  perfectly  smooth  and,  as  a  result,  the side edges of the chisel blade will be fairly sharp.

http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69847&cat=1,41504

I have flattened the backs of the Narex chisels after I bought them. I have however done nothing to the back of over a dozen of A2 or PM-V11 plane blades or chisels from Lee Valley. They are honed only on the bevels (back bevel blades not counted), and they are very sharp for all woodworking intents and purposes. I have tried the ruler trick on blades, but in general, I do not use it.

Image shows a high angle blade from LV (sharpened freehand with diamond lapping films, micro-bevel but no ruler trick) being used with a tight mouth on a mixed grain top. Its back has been as is from the factory.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:34 AM by ChuckM »

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2019, 08:23 AM »
Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will have a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 01:38 PM by Rob Lee »

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #39 on: August 29, 2019, 10:05 AM »
Rob, you beat me to it. I shall still post this photo from my Veritas O1 chisel review ...



On the left is an untouched chisel back. The other two received under 30" lapping on a Shapton 12000 - which only polishes steel - and they turned into mirrors.

This is the case with ALL the Veritas blades that have passed through my hands.

And here is another reason why one needs to hone new chisels: the backs and the faces should both be honed and polished to the same grit, and other makes are very unlikely to be better than the 4000 grit at which Veritas arrive. 

Regards from Perth

Derek


Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 849
Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #40 on: August 29, 2019, 11:50 AM »
Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob


Thanks @Rob Lee - Just the info I wanted.  I just hope I haven't screwed up my existing chisels by starting at a grit that is too coarse.  Thanks also to @derekcohen for verifying from your experience.


Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #41 on: August 29, 2019, 01:41 PM »
And.....

Another good reason to have a mirror finish is that a reflective surface helps align a chisel visually (you can tell when a mirror is perpendicular to a surface, or edge).

Cheers -

Rob

Offline Rob Lee

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #42 on: August 29, 2019, 01:47 PM »
Hi -

Our lapping process conditions surfaces to a flatness far higher than we quote (an order of magnitude). However, we hedge as there can be some amount of springback as the blades are lapped with pressure applied.

For all intents and purposes - they are stupidly flat for woodworking.....you can only make them worse by working on them.

If you are going to polish the back (and you should) - I would start with a 4000X or more- they will require very little time to polish.

The back of our blades have a flat gray appearance. This is a result of a random scratch pattern that disperses (scatters?) light at high angles of incidence (like when you're looking at it!). If you sight down the blade at a lower angle (say 10-15 degrees) - it will have a mirror surface. Polishing will dull the scratch pattern - and you will a "mirror" finish at higher angles of incidence.

Cheers -

Rob


Thanks @Rob Lee - Just the info I wanted.  I just hope I haven't screwed up my existing chisels by starting at a grit that is too coarse.  Thanks also to @derekcohen for verifying from your experience.


Hi -

No worries on you existing chisels....I said you "can only" make them worse.... not that "you will" make then worse !  [big grin]

If you feel you've messed 'em up - give me a shout at rlee@leevalley.com , and we'll get then put right....

Cheers -

Rob

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 3884
Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #43 on: August 31, 2019, 07:38 PM »
Out of the box sharpness should be a minimal factor in deciding whether to invest in a tool that the user must regularly resharpen and maintain, and while i wouldn't otherwise follow up what was just meant as an offhand observation, there's still a question hanging out there,  so I'll simply post a pic of one of the chisels blades out of the box:



Like I said, the plane blades I have previously gotten from LV have always been cleanly sharpened and ready to use with just a quick hone. These uncharacteristically needed a bit more work.  Not a big deal.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2019, 07:50 PM by ear3 »
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Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2019, 06:33 PM »
Just got mine today - I'll give a report after I've had the chance to sharpen them.

Offline HarveyWildes

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2019, 03:54 PM »
I sharpened my new flushing chisels today.


I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.  I started with 4000 grit, moved to 8000 grit, and then tried 16000 on the 1/2" chisel.  I took 1-2 minutes for each of the 4000 and 8000 grit stones per chisel (more for the 1 1/2" - see below), and under a minute with the 16000 grit stone  Prepping all four chisels took about 25-30 minutes with cleanup.  I then honed each chisel using the highest grit that I used when polishing the back.  With the exception of the extra time on the 1 1/2" chisel, it was a very streamlined process compared to other chisels that I've had to prep.


The 1/2", 3/4", and 1" chisels were dead flat.  The 1 1/2" chisel was close, with a slight low spot on the back along one side of the edge.  In the picture you can see it as a dull gray triangle on the left hand side of the edge.  I couldn't see any light under a straight edge, so it is still flat enough for things that require flat, but I would like to have polished the back along the whole edge for sharpness after honing.  I don't have an immediate need for the 1 1/2" chisel, so I'll bring this to the attention of Lee Valley and see what they recommend.  The other chisels ended up looking like the pictures that @derekcohen posted, at least on the last 1-2 inches that I polished.  Looks like I don't need to start with a 1000 grit stone for Lee Valley :).


I tested the chisels on (1) birch dowels sticking up from a planed board, and (2) elm end grain.  None of the pieces were longer than the chisel blades, so I could have made the test cuts with regular bench chisels.  I used a somewhat skewed cutting action, which meant that I wasn't pushing directly forward on the handle.  Instead, I tended to hold the handle on the bolster, with my other hand pushing down on the blade.  (In other words, I haven't really given the chisel handle design a good test yet.)  With that approach, I didn't have any trouble with the handle coming loose.


The test cuts all looked great.  I noticed a slight difference between the 1/2" chisel which I polished and honed to 16000 grit, and the others.

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2019, 08:52 PM »
Quote
I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.

Harvey, about Shaptons (and other waterstones) ...

I would never assume that a waterstone is flat just because it is new. There is no tool I know of, especially consumables like waterstones, that should be assumed to be “right” from the outset. Everything needs some work.

Shaptons tend to move a little. I ended up glueing mine to glass to keep them flat, but would still flatten them (especially the 1000) before use.



The reason you needed three grits to work the backs of these blades is more likely to be that your stones were not as flat as the chisels! They only need to be polished, not flattened. You are more likely to undo the work by Veritas by using something coarser than 8000 grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Offline HarveyWildes

  • Posts: 849
Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2019, 10:49 AM »
Quote
I used new, out-of-the-box Shapton stones which I assumed were flat enough to match the chisels.

Harvey, about Shaptons (and other waterstones) ...

I would never assume that a waterstone is flat just because it is new. There is no tool I know of, especially consumables like waterstones, that should be assumed to be “right” from the outset. Everything needs some work.

Shaptons tend to move a little. I ended up glueing mine to glass to keep them flat, but would still flatten them (especially the 1000) before use.

The reason you needed three grits to work the backs of these blades is more likely to be that your stones were not as flat as the chisels! They only need to be polished, not flattened. You are more likely to undo the work by Veritas by using something coarser than 8000 grit.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Point well taken - never assume...  I have a Shapton lapping plate and should have used it.


I was using Shapton Glass stones, but I love the idea of gluing a regular stone to a glass base.  Do you have to prep the glass at all, for example by etching it?  What kind of glue works for that?


I started at 8000 with the 3/4" chisel, and wasn't satisfied with the results, so I dropped back to 4000 based on Rob Lee's advice above.  Compared to any previous experience I've had with chisel backs, including Lie Nielsen, I was very pleased with the results.  Even starting at 4000, it was way easier than previous experiences.


WRT the 1 1/2" chisel,  my thinking, based on the results with the other chisels (basically perfect) and the way part of the edge didn't polish as expected, that the stones are not at fault.  I could flatten it out using 1000 or 2000 grit, but since it seems to be out of the Veritas metric for flat, I'll see what they recommend first.

Offline derekcohen

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Re: Veritas flush cutting Chisels
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2019, 12:33 PM »
Hi Harvey

I am sure that you did no harm ... just that it should not have been necessary to go below 8000.

The Shaptons I was referring to are the Pro version. I had the local glass merchant size and cut up a few glass rectangles, each about 1/4" thick. I used epoxy. No etching required. Make sure that you secure the combination with tape as the epoxy is slippery at the start, and parts may move  ... and then you are literally stuck with the result! DAMHIK.

Regards from Perth

Derek