Author Topic: Using Waterstones  (Read 10361 times)

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Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Using Waterstones
« on: April 07, 2015, 03:30 AM »
I'm trying to get my chisel/plane sharpening setup complete and I currently have 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000 Norton Waterstones. I am new to this style of sharpening and get how I need to go about doing it, but the part that is missing in my mind is how long the stones need to be socked in water for prior to use and if you store them submerged in water in between uses, etc. Does anyone have any ideas on this?

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Offline jonny round boy

  • Posts: 3227
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 04:15 AM »
I think you'll need to soak them for a good few hours initially.

You don't need to store them in water, but it helps if you do - that way they're ready for immediate use.
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Offline wrightwoodwork

  • Posts: 410
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 05:30 AM »
I think it depends on the type of stone. I have the bester stones which only need around 5-10 minutes, other stones need a lot longer. While the likes of shaptons as far as I know only need a splash. Generally when I put my stone on water I wait till the bubbles stop also when using I will add a splash of water and give the stone a rinse. I honestly don't think thier is right or wrong. Obviously don't leave them in water in case it freezes. Or there is the chance of the stone turning to dust

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3717
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2015, 06:06 AM »
I have a couple of water stones that I have never used.  I have a Tormek that i had used for a short while, but found it needed to be shaped back to square within a short time.  I switched to diamond stones and have used for many a sharpening.  I started by using water, but unless cleaned thoroughly, i got a lot of rust on the stone.  I do the final touching up with a couple of arkansas stones that i use oil with.  I decided to switch to oil with my diamond stones and I get no rust debris build up.  I do not clean the stones very often in the winter time, so I do get some build up of oily debris until i can get outside to clean them properly. 

I am thinking of trying out the waterstones, but i use a Veritas guide with a roller wheel.  will the roller wheel affect the waterstones other than what happens from the effect from the tool being sharpened?

How often will the waterstone need to be trued (flattened)?

Is it any faster sharpening with waterstone than with diamond plate?

I get the final shine to an edge by rubbing some honing paste onto a flat piece of wood (a scrap of cherry) that has been saturated with honing paste.  Takes only a few seconds at that stage.  would a touch up with honing paste be necessary if using a water stone?

When taking out knicks or truing a rough edge on a tool, the initial shaping seems faster with the Tormek.  The final edge I seem to get sharper and quicker with the diamond plate and stone method.  So far, i have not had to flatten the arkansas stones as they get used only at final edge stage.  The diamond plates seem to last forever.  I only clean the plates when i can go outside with a bucket of kerosene so i don't spatter in the shop.  I spend very little time cleaning the plates and stones. 

Time to go to work.  Grass seeding time.  thought the snow would hang around til july this year.  I will soon be sharpening mower blades.  Those are easy and quick.  Only use a grinding wheel (dry) and lots of sparks.  Not very fussy and definitely do not want blades razor sharp.  the sharper they are, the quicker they get dull.  Very quick and simple project.  don't even worry about trueness of the grinder wheel.  no guide.  Just plug in grinder and have at it.
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3040
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2015, 06:46 AM »
I keep my Norton stones permanently submerged in a bucket of water and have never had a problem. I even spoke to a technician from the company to confirm this is ok.

Tinker, the Veritas wheel has no effect on the stone. Just be sure to wipe down the wheel after use so it runs true on the stone. I flatten my stones every time I use them with a coarse diamond plate. Takes perhaps two seconds per stone. I do find stones to be quicker than a diamond plate to be honest.
I also finish with a strop after the 8000 stone and can detect a little extra benefit.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6078
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2015, 07:35 AM »
Just curious, what does the water do to the stones that makes them better for sharpening than a dry stone?

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3040
Using Waterstones
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2015, 10:40 AM »
I think as the stone breaks down and new particles are exposed to continue sharpening, the water helps create a slurry and prevents clogging. Also it reduces friction.

Plus even a dry stone like a diamond plate works better with a little lubricant.

Offline waho6o9

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Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2015, 10:44 AM »
A Nagura stone on the 8000 grit makes a slurry to  polish the

edge and works well. 


Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2015, 05:27 PM »
I think it depends on the type of stone. I have the bester stones which only need around 5-10 minutes, other stones need a lot longer. While the likes of shaptons as far as I know only need a splash. Generally when I put my stone on water I wait till the bubbles stop also when using I will add a splash of water and give the stone a rinse. I honestly don't think thier is right or wrong. Obviously don't leave them in water in case it freezes. Or there is the chance of the stone turning to dust

The instructions on the shapton professional stones say soak in water for 5 to 6 minutes, do not keep in water.

"ご使露 前5~6分砥石を水につけ.八ただくと、よ"

I got my students to translate that part for me. One of the advantages of living here ;) also Google translate works if you have a scanner.

corrected for soak time. * 2012_12_01 - Shapton.pdf (764.7 kB - downloaded 194 times.)
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 01:41 AM by Sometimewoodworker »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1909
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2015, 05:42 PM »
There is a great video on YouTube which uses diamond stones submerged in a sink to flatten waterstones. It works great. The only problem is that I can't find the video online anymore. Basically the diamond stone is just submerged in enough water to permit the residue from the waterstone to be washed off the top of the diamond stone. Mark the water stone across the side you are flattening with a pencil and she nthe pencil marks are gone across the whole stone, it is flat (because the diamond stone is always flat). The move on to a finer grit diamond stone. This works great and is a very fast way to flatten the waterstone. (You need to do it in a basement sink or one you don't care about since there is a fair amount of residue. Also, I'm not sure what the residue does to the drain so I would make sure you wash it down with a lot of water after you're done.)
Randy

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2015, 11:45 PM »
Has anyone had any experience with the Shapton Professional Series Waterstone vs the Norton Waterstones? From the get go, the major difference seems to be the need to presoak the stones all the time... any thoughts?

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2380
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2015, 01:15 AM »
I have the Shapton Glass stones and the Shapton Pro Series stones along with some Bester, King, Nubatama Ume, and Suhiro Cerax water stones.  The older King stones I need to soak until the bubbles stop the newer stones like the Shapton Glass series you just spritz with some water and use right away.

The stone manufactures are using different binders and the so called "Splash and Go" stones will be damaged if you soak them too long (the binder will dissolve).

The Shapton Pro series while not a splash and go only need to be run under water for a few minutes and they are ready to use.  The Shapton Pro series are a more open pore stone then the glass series and sharpen a little quicker.  The trade off is how long you get to use the stone before you have to flatten it again.  The glass series stays flatter longer than the others.

The Nubatama Ume stones come in different hardness grades and the 1000 and 3000 grit stones that I have in extra hard keep flat a long time and sharpen very fast.

I don't use my Bester or King stones any longer since I upgraded to the newer products.  The one thing I would recommend is to get the Atoma 140 grit diamond sharpening/flattening plate which I use to keep all of my stones flat in just a few swipes.

For Chisels and Plane Irons I use the Veritas MkII sharpening guide which allows you to set the bevel angle accurately between sharpenings and has a nice feature to allow you to twist the front of the guide to get a 2 degree secondary bevel.

Jack

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2015, 01:24 AM »
Do you know if you need to fully soak the Norton Waterstones each time before using them?

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1909
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2015, 07:51 AM »
Based on my understanding of waterstones (even Norton waterstones), you do need to make sure they are thoroughly wet for them to be effective. I would guess that Norton has some direction online or, if you call the company, they could tell you how long would be sufficient each time you use them. I believe that it is not necessary nor advisable to leave the Norton stones soaking between uses. I know I have not done that and they are fine. I just soak them for a little while before use. I have one that has a different grit on each side and I've been using them by soaking it just enough to get it wet then wetting the surface while I'm sharpening. I'm not the expert though and I also think that you would find guidance on all sharpening with waterstones and their use online on YouTube. It's also a learning process. Over time you just get better and begin to learn what to do and what not to do based on results and problems you encounter. It's sort of like woodworking. I know that, while I have learned much from books, people, and online, I don't get better at anything in woodworking unles I actually do it repetitively and make some mistakes along the way.
Randy

Offline Sometimewoodworker

  • Posts: 752
    • Jerome's  Other work
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2015, 10:35 AM »
Do you know if you need to fully soak the Norton Waterstones each time before using them?

Yes, for most.

http://www.nortonstones.com/uploadedFiles/SGnortonstones/Documents/Waterstone%20Users%20Guide.pdf
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 12:52 PM »
I think the trouble I'm faced with is that I've just brought a set of Norton Waterstones and I'm not over the moon about soaking them before every use. I thought that this was a fact of life until I saw the Shapton Pro Series and the fact that you only need to spray these before using. If you were me, would you return the Norton's for the Shapton's, is there any reason to keep the Shapton's?

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 1909
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 01:47 PM »
I only have experience with Norton waterstones and the experience was very positive. All waterstones require some care, including frequent flattening as they wear with each use. (I don't know about each time you use them but I find it cleans them up if I flatten them as part of the the last step each time I use them.)

One of the advantages to using diamond stones for the coarser grits is no maintenance except some cleanup to get rid of the residue. So, I would recommend using diamond stones to start and finishing up with waterstones. The Norton stones have worked well for me. I felt it was an investment that was worth it.

Having said that, I still feel sharpening is an experiential process. The more you do it the better you get and the more you understand what works for you. The only advice I have found consistent across all "experts" was to pick a method and stones and stick with it. Don't keep changing. It's only after you've used a method for awhile and have experience that you get the best result possible from that method. I'm sure that, if you view videos, read online articles, or find books you will get a variety of feedback which is not necessarily consistent. That advice is based on the experience of that source.
Randy

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2380
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 05:06 PM »
I think the trouble I'm faced with is that I've just brought a set of Norton Waterstones and I'm not over the moon about soaking them before every use. I thought that this was a fact of life until I saw the Shapton Pro Series and the fact that you only need to spray these before using. If you were me, would you return the Norton's for the Shapton's, is there any reason to keep the Shapton's?

Keep in mind that the Shapton Glass Series is the splash and go stones.  The Shapton Pro series does need some wetting before use since they are a bit more porous than the Glass series stones but I don't soak them. I just run them under water for a minute or so and then spritz as necessary when using.

I would return the Norton stones since I also hate soaking stones before use (and I did this for 35 years) and get the Shapton Glass stones.  I have the Shapton Pro 320 grit, the Shapton Glass 500 grit (extra thick), the 1000, 2000, and 8000 Shapton Glass stones.

Since the jump from 2000 grit to 8000 was so much, I found a good price on the Shapton Pro 5000 grit stone (which is one of my favorite stones).

Jack

Offline RL

  • Posts: 3040
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 05:23 PM »
Do you know if you need to fully soak the Norton Waterstones each time before using them?

Yes, for the 1000 and 4000 stones. The 8000 stones can do with a spritz (but I soak mine anyway).


Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 07:19 PM »
I think the trouble I'm faced with is that I've just brought a set of Norton Waterstones and I'm not over the moon about soaking them before every use. I thought that this was a fact of life until I saw the Shapton Pro Series and the fact that you only need to spray these before using. If you were me, would you return the Norton's for the Shapton's, is there any reason to keep the Shapton's?
Both Norton and Shapton Pro in the lower grits need soaking before use.
The instructions say Norton: 10 mins. Shapton Pro: 5 to 6 mins
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
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Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2380
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2015, 09:13 PM »
If your interested in Shapton Pro, check out this offer from Amazon the Kuromaku is the Shapton Pro stone.  I bought 3 stones from this source and they came in great condition.  The price varies from time to time but, they are the same high quality stones that uyou get from any supplier.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=Kuromaku

Jack

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2015, 11:38 PM »
@jacko9 do you know what the difference is between these ones and the normal Shapton ones?

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 12:28 AM »
Looking at it, it seems like its now a choice between the Shapton Professional Stones and the Shapton Glass Stones. Besides the maintenance factor (which is a pretty big consideration), does anyone have any thoughts on the differences between the two?

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 12:31 AM »
@jacko9 Additionally wondering why you have chosen the glass stones for some and pros for others?

Offline Sometimewoodworker

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Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 12:34 AM »
Jerome
TS55, OF1400, Elu MOF96, Rotex150, DTS400, ETS150/3 Domino, MFK700, CXS, HL 850, Trend T11, Makita LS1212, Original Mini CV06 Cyclone, Workshop supplies drum sander, & WoodRat. Don't have don't want list: MFT
http://www.flickr.com/photos/nui-jerome/

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2380
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 01:32 AM »
I have a mix of stones that started about three years ago.  Up until then I had King stones that had to be soaked and when used they dished out quickly (lost their flatness).

I upgraded to Bester when Japan Woodworking was closing their retail operation and one of the guys there that did sharpening recommended the Bester brand.  They were an improvement over the King Stones but, they still had to be soaked.

Next an article in Fine Woodworking magazine talked about the Shapton Glass Stones so, I decided to try a few of those to avoid the soaking issue.  Initially I got the 1000 and 8000 grit Glass stones to try them out but they were expensive.  I learned on a Japanese Kitchen Knife forum that a lot of the sharpeners like the Shapton Pro stones for the feel and open pore that was said to not clog up as much as the Shapton Glass stones.  I found the Amazon web sale and ordered the Kuromaku (which is the Shapton Pro stones) for about half price so I decided to fill in some grit sizes and ordered the 1500 and 5000 grit.  The 1500 stones was mismarked on the Amazon site and I recieved the Shapton Pro 320 grit (which I decided to keep)

My current stone lineup is;

Bester 700 and 1200 grit
Kitayama 8000 grit
King 6000 grit
Shapton Pro 320 and 5000 grit
Shapton Glass 500, 1000, 2000, 8000 grit
Nubatama Ume 1000, 3000 grit
Nubatama Bamboo 150
Suehiro Cerax 320, 1000, 6000 grit
Atoma Diamond plate 140 grit

The Shapton Glass is a true splash and go stone, they cut fast and stay flat a long time.

The Shapton Pro is a more open pore stone that also sharpens fast and stays flat but needs a 1 minute rinse before you start.  The Shapton Pro is one of their older models.

The Nubatama Ume is a high quality stone that is exceptional hard and flat stone that sharpens very fast and stays flat.  These need a few minutes soak or rinse under the faucet.

The Suehiro was a special at a knife forum that I decided to try since they were pretty cheap at the time.  The 320 grit needs to be soaked and even though it cuts fast it dishes quickly.  The 1000 and 6000 grit are similar to the Shapton Glass.

If I had to start from scratch I would recommend the Shapton Pro 320, Shapton Glass 500 (extra thick), Shapton Glass 1000 (or Nubatama Ume 1000grit), Shapton Glass 2000 or Nubatama Ume 3000, Shapton Pro 5000 and Shapton Glass 8000 grit.

There is a lot less maintenance in these newer stones than anything I have used in the past and the Atoma 140 Diamond Plate makes quick work to get them dead flat in less than a minute.  The newer stones like the ones I mentioned also don't dig in if you get the edge tilted like the softer King stones where it was so easy to gouge the stone.

I can't say enough about the Veritas MkII sharpening jig that has a bevel setting attachment to get you to the correct bevel angle so you don't need to re-establish the bevel every time you sharpen.  If I need to freshen up a chisel edge I set it to the bevel angle and I normally can just hit the 3000 or 5000 grit stone and I'm ready to go again.

Let me know If I haven't answered your questions.

Jack 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 01:35 AM by jacko9 »

Offline avanderhoorn

  • Posts: 77
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2015, 11:20 PM »
@jacko9 wow thanks for the feedback! Why the switch back and forward between the pro and the glass stones for the different grits. Also you see to have a lot of stones between 220 and 8000, do you find that it makes much of a difference between all the different steps you have over just 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000?

Offline waho6o9

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Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2015, 12:25 AM »
Hooked up a recirculating pump from a fish tank and

rigged up a system to  sharpen up some blades

and it worked pretty good.

Offline jacko9

  • Posts: 2380
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2015, 12:45 AM »
@jacko9 wow thanks for the feedback! Why the switch back and forward between the pro and the glass stones for the different grits. Also you see to have a lot of stones between 220 and 8000, do you find that it makes much of a difference between all the different steps you have over just 220, 1000, 4000 & 8000?

The switch between the Glass and Pro stones was just to try each and to fill in a grit needed.  The 150 and 320 stones are for repairing deep nicks in the edge.  After the 1000 grit I just find it easier to remove the scratch marks quicker with closer grit stones.  I wouldn't do this if I wasn't using the Veritas MkII sharpening jig where it's easy to rinse the grit off and go to the next level.

Jack

Offline FOGNewbie

  • Posts: 134
Re: Using Waterstones
« Reply #29 on: April 15, 2015, 09:01 AM »
If your interested in Shapton Pro, check out this offer from Amazon the Kuromaku is the Shapton Pro stone.  I bought 3 stones from this source and they came in great condition.  The price varies from time to time but, they are the same high quality stones that uyou get from any supplier.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dtools&field-keywords=Kuromaku

Jack

Uggh I knew I should have come here first... I just ordered some Shapton (traditional?) pro Waterstones. 1000, 8000, 15000 and a Nagura(sp?) stone. Your link showed the 8000 for $30.00 less. Oh well, someone has to make money. I'm giving this setup a try to see if I can improve the edge I get on chisels and plane blades. Plus I'm trying to see if I can extend the time before I need to hone/ sharpen again.

Back on topic, I've been using a 1000/ 8000 Norton combo stone with a Nagura and a piece of leather for a strop with strop compound. This actually works well. I can shave forearm hair with that setup.

I have a diamond plate(DMT) that I use for flattening my water stones and coarse grinding (I don't have a grinder) like a deep nick in an edge or to establish a primary bevel. I also use sand paper for coarse grit work or initial flattening of chisels or plane blades. Mount the sandpaper to glass and go at it. Usually I don't have to go any lower in grit than 400 to 600 grit. from there, I can go to the combo waterstone then the strop.

BTW I just rub the Norton waterstone against the DMT diamond plate to flatten it. If it appears to be dished/ I let it go to long before flattening, I draw pencil marks in a grid pattern and then rub the waterstone on the diamond plate to see if there are any high spots. I got this technique from David Charleworth. His DVD on sharpening explains this process.