Author Topic: Sense of entitlement?  (Read 4736 times)

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Offline CeeJay

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2020, 05:41 PM »
There is a issue I have seen discussed regularly on a photography forum.

Have you ever been asked for a discount on the basis of getting great publicity from a social media influencer? I imagine it would take incredible ego to even ask this question, but who knows what people will try.


My wife is a photographer and writer and this happens ALL the time. It is very annoying and drives her crazy.

A lot of online publications take this approach. It’s very hard for people working in the arts to make a fair living these days.


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Offline Jesse Cloud

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2020, 07:22 PM »
Apart from right or wrong, I don't think it will work.  Almost every rich person I have known has been very tight with his money.  Occasionally you may see Mr. "Money is no object." but that's mainly in the movies.  Doesn't matter whether you are selling trades work, real estate, or software.  Maybe that's a part of how they got rich in the first place or at least how they have managed to stay rich.

Maybe an exception is pricing by neighborhood.  Even a rich person will want to have his house look good compared to the neighbors and expect to pay in the same range they did.  But he will expect bang for the buck.

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2020, 07:50 PM »
Another thing to warn about - People talk. If you are a professional and do work in a neighborhood and then give pricing elevated based on perceived financial status, rest assured that the word will get out.  Better to offer "specials" that run for a limited time.

I personally do not employ any of these strategies, but they are viable for those trying to build a business with common sense.

Peter

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2020, 08:25 PM »
Snip.

My wife is a photographer and writer and this happens ALL the time. It is very annoying and drives her crazy.

A lot of online publications take this approach. It’s very hard for people working in the arts to make a fair living these days.


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I hear you.

I know of one large publication house which moved its monthly issues to bi-monthly ones (once every two months), meaning reduced revenue, and cut its writer's fee across the board by 25%. "Take it or leave it." Magazines are tough to run. But then I know of none who writes woodworking articles for a living (not counting those who are themselves employees (Woodsmith, Woodworker's Journal, etc.).
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 08:54 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2020, 08:38 PM »
Another thing to warn about - People talk. If you are a professional and do work in a neighborhood and then give pricing elevated based on perceived financial status, rest assured that the word will get out.  Better to offer "specials" that run for a limited time.

I personally do not employ any of these strategies, but they are viable for those trying to build a business with common sense.

Peter
Over the years, I've come across countless lawn or sidewalk signs from roofers, painters, or landscaping businesses that offer 10% off or something like that as they're working for some clients in the neighborhood. Window cleaning vendors, too. Surely, their intentions are to charge "other" customers not in the neighborhood more, even if the signs might just be a bait.

One or one set of standard pricing may be true for some sectors or businesses, but many legitimate businesses offer variable prices depending on whom they deal with. To say a client's background is never a factor in price determination is false. Healthcare professionals and teachers (that include woodworking instructors), for example, receive discounts when they buy merchandises from some vendors for or related to their professions.

If I came out of retirement and resumed my business, would I still have different pricing packages? Of course, it had worked for me for over 20 years, and the world --- save Covid-19 -- is still the same as the one I had been in before I called it quits.  But it might not work for someone else -- depending on their nature of business, experience etc.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 08:52 PM by ChuckM »

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2020, 12:07 AM »
   There is a difference between different pricing for different levels of work, economy of an area / region, different types of client (commercial vs private), other things that actually justify different pricing, etc. and simply jacking up the price because you think the customer is rich.

 Those are very different things. I think the OP was referring to the latter.

Seth

Offline Imemiter

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2020, 01:18 AM »
To me it seems the height of entitlement to judge a person on how much they charge or why. If the market will bear, it's a bull.
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2020, 09:32 PM »
I have a hourly rate (labor) +, hourly rate (shop)+, Materials  mark up 10% +, and profit + 40%,= cost of the project.

Dont care how much someone makes only that they are good people and wont nickel and dime the heck out of me and can afford to payme on time and in full.

Offline demographic

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2020, 12:37 PM »
One of my brothers does it like this.
I would call him a fair person who is very experienced and knowledgeable in his field.

If he doesn't want to do the job he prices it higher.
Then if he gets the job he's happier to do the job because he's getting paid more.

That might just be because he knows the client will be a pain in the neck or possibly a bit slow paying.

So, in short if you are a pain in the neck, expect to pay a bit more.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #39 on: August 02, 2020, 08:50 PM »
@demographic

if the client is gonna be a pain, Ill just send him to a competitor let him deal with the toss bucket

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #40 on: August 03, 2020, 09:34 AM »

Offline Sparktrician

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #41 on: August 03, 2020, 12:00 PM »
My wife is a photographer and writer and this happens ALL the time. It is very annoying and drives her crazy.

I deal with people that ask for a "free" real estate photo job by telling them that if they hire me to do nine jobs at the normal price, I'll then give them one (and only one) job "free", but only after they pay for nine.  This is a one-time thing; don't ask for it more than once.  Some have balked, and I have walked.  End of story.  I don't need pikers as customers. 
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Offline jobsworth

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2020, 12:09 PM »
Target your customers and raise the price (because they can afford it [tongue])!

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfluence/why-sometimes-the-best-way-to-sell-a-product-is-to-increase-its-price-1.5598109

About 25 years ago I was talking to my mentor (Mr P RIP) I was telling him how one lady was complaining over very very minor things that most people wouldnt even notice or care about as these were country/ farm type projects made to look old and distressed.
He told me and I quote " Ron your not charging enough" It seems the more you charge the less complaints you get.

He was right lt was best bit of advice I received. So when I give a price its  my price. I dont lower it because someone cant afford it or not willing to pay that amount and I dont raise it based on their income.

I base it on my structure which Ive already noted

Offline TwelvebyTwenty

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2020, 04:11 PM »
Target your customers and raise the price (because they can afford it [tongue])!

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/undertheinfluence/why-sometimes-the-best-way-to-sell-a-product-is-to-increase-its-price-1.5598109

About 25 years ago I was talking to my mentor (Mr P RIP) I was telling him how one lady was complaining over very very minor things that most people wouldnt even notice or care about as these were country/ farm type projects made to look old and distressed.
He told me and I quote " Ron your not charging enough" It seems the more you charge the less complaints you get.

He was right lt was best bit of advice I received. So when I give a price its  my price. I dont lower it because someone cant afford it or not willing to pay that amount and I dont raise it based on their income.

I base it on my structure which Ive already noted

This is an interesting perspective. To me it's less to do with price, and more to do with expectation management. Do you tell the client to expect that your mitres won't quite close properly? Or to expect runs in their pain, etc.?

In my experience the difference between a quality job and a sub par job often isn't about pricing or more time being needed, but generally just having pride in your work. If I had a dollar/pound for all the times I've seen a piece of bad work not because substantially more chargeable time was needed, but because a guy couldn't be bothered to walk 30 seconds to his van to get a different tool, or just going home 20 mins early by cutting a corner, I'd be considerably richer.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2020, 04:16 PM by TwelvebyTwenty »

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 608
Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2020, 07:39 PM »
"You can imagine my amusement when I heard this! I Imagine his whole tool kit could be worth less than one of my drills."

Not making excuses for his overcharging but don't think he's got it easier when it comes to tooling up for his job than you or any other craft does.

You probably think an electrician is overrated too then if you are going to base his skill level on the size and value of his tool pouch. Or a mason because he walks on the job with only a canvas bag with a half dozen trowels, a level, and a couple string lines.

Maybe the tools needed to fix a leaky drain cost less than one drill. But there are plenty of tools that go along with the rest of the trade that cost plenty. How much do you think that camera costs they send down the drain to locate a blockage and inspect the pipe. A cheap rig starts around $3k and can run up to $10k or more. A locator to find the sonde in the underground pipe so you know where to dig will cost you ~$3k. Need a jetter to clear that line blockage? That can set you back anywhere from $2K to $25K. Oh wait, you're still gonna need a couple different style drain machines, and a hundred or more other tools to do your day-to-day work. Torches, welders, pipe threading machine, a dozen or more pipe wrenches in various sizes, multiple pipe cutters, tubing cutters, pipe vises, pex crimpers, there's more but I won't bore you. A good pipe vise costs as much as a MFT/3, maybe more. And he no doubt has a bunch of cordless tools too. Sawzall, porta-band, grinder, drill/drivers, impact drivers, oscillating tool, and more.

That equipment needs maintenance and has consumables just like your $300 sander or dust extractor (he probably has one of those too) filter or need to replace drill bits or sharpen saw blades. Guess what, he needs a truck (maybe two) or van same as you to get his tools to the job. Do you carry every piece of lumber and plywood, or every screw or nail in your truck that you might need? Of course not. Do you go get those materials and transport them to the job for 'free'? If you do you're leaving money on the table or don't know the value your own time. Your job and his job are not the same, they can't always be billed in the same way.

The skill is not in the tools its within you. And that is (or should be) what defines the rate no matter what trade.

If you had two monkeys with the same skill level/training; one with a Festool drill and one with a HF drill; they are both going to accomplish the same amount of work....NONE. And the value of their work would be the same...ZERO.

There is a bit of a converse way to look at this though.
There are situations where the "investment" in tools that speed up your work would work against you with this theory. You spend more to do the job, then you have fewer hours in it? Thus less pay?
So yes, it gets you moving on to the next job, but is that really the point? Doing more for the same pay
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Offline WarnerConstCo.

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Re: Sense of entitlement?
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2021, 05:29 PM »
I charge everyone the same, a lot. You either want me to do it or not. No big deal, stacks of stuff to do anyway.

Personally I prefer to not work for most individuals. Rather deal with commercial customers. Lot less shouting and moaning.

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