Wow, imagine your design being so vulnerable that the use of the wrong type of screws can mean the difference between fire and not fire. I can't wrap my head around that, seems to me you'd better avoid such a product entirely.

It's not hard to see at all.  This is the very thing that the vast majority of recalls are about.  Something could be loose, something could be over tight,  something could be a bit to close, if installer does something just a hair off.  Recalls are rarely some major thing or obvious thing, it's the whole reason this happens.  Folks designing stuff can plan for a fair bit of things, but they can't plan for everything.   Plan for someone using too big of a screw, someone will find an even bigger screw.  And when any of that happens it's on the manufactures because no one will accept they installed it wrong and they are at fault, everyone runs right back to the manufacture and blames them.

This recall is about protecting those who refuse to read the manual from themselves.

Ding!

Type in IKEA in the search, it's tons of this sort of thing.  Everything at IKEA is a laceration danger.   Not sure how it works elsewhere in the world, but in the US, companies have to live in constant fear of people suing them because the people refused to read/use correctly/understand physics/etc.

The revised installation instructions for the Ring Video Doorbell (2nd Generation) are here:

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/articles/360040763632

The illustration showing the difference between the correct short security screws and the incorrect lengthy wood screws is funny. I will not spoil the other amusing detail.

From the dramatic conclusion:

Secure your Video Doorbell.

CAUTION!


If you use the wrong screws to secure the Video Doorbell, you could damage the battery during installation, create a fire hazard, and be seriously injured.

DO NOT USE any screw other than the included short security screws when securing your Video Doorbell to the bracket.
Use the star-shaped end of the included screwdriver to drive the two security screws into the bottom of your
 Video Doorbell.
 

interesting there is Europe and US instructions.   They are laid out different, but in the end the same.  I like how in the US it is "use a 1/4" drill bit",  in the EU it's "use the included drill bit".  So sounds like they rather include a drillbit for Europe verses ship with metric anchors?  Not like anyone ever uses included hardware for stuff like that.   I figured that was where the issue was, but no, it's the screw internal to the setup.  Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

If the screw that the Ring people include is a security screw, rather than a regular Torx screw, then including a security screwdriver significantly increases the number of such tools owned by the general public. I recall that years ago, buying such screwdrivers online required submitting a scan of a company letterhead.

Quote from: DeformedTree on November 11, 2020, 01:24 PM

Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

If the screw that the Ring people include is a security screw, rather than a regular Torx screw, then including a security screwdriver significantly increases the number of such tools owned by the general public. I recall that years ago, buying such screwdrivers online required submitting a scan of a company letterhead.

"security screws" have always been a BS idea.  They just cause more screw types to be invented, more tools needed, etc. They are secure for all of the couple days till someone makes the matching tool for them so people can work on their stuff.  Apple has been bad about this for years. If someone wants to steal rings, they will just find the correct screw driver and start stealing them.

Between the potential for being lost and no easy way to have a replacement, or the possibility it's a security torx and folks don't have the tool, this just sets things up for people to find another way.

This could be a case of people may not be using the product right, but if you set it up where they have few options but to use it wrong, then it comes back on Ring.   Use a common fastener, put information in the documentation on what the screw is. If it said "use a M6x20 screw" (I have no idea the size, thus the point), then folks could find alternative screw.  This gets to a way to reduce a lot of hazards with products.  Provide good information that helps people support the products they buy.  Don't act like everything about it is special, and usage of any other part but OEM bits will cause death and destruction.  People will find a way, it's best to show them how to do it right.

Quote from: DeformedTree on November 11, 2020, 10:29 AM

It's not hard to see at all.  This is the very thing that the vast majority of recalls are about.  Something could be loose, something could be over tight,  something could be a bit to close, if installer does something just a hair off.  Recalls are rarely some major thing or obvious thing, it's the whole reason this happens.

Well, I wasn't talking about the reasons and merits of recalls in general, but about this specific case.

Which was described on that website as an OVERHEATING problem, due to using the wrong screws. And that just sounded weird in my head. User installed screws should have no bearing on the heat a battery generates or dissipates. If it does, that's a mayor design flaw.

But the real trouble here is PUNCTURING the battery. Now I understand that a battery bursting in flames due to the reaction of lithium and water can technically be called a form of overheating, but I think most people would call it PUNCTURING.   

Quote from: DeformedTree on November 11, 2020, 10:29 AM

Folks designing stuff can plan for a fair bit of things, but they can't plan for everything.   

They could, and should have anticipated this. The volatility of lithium-ion batteries is a well known fact in the engineering world. As problems with them can lead to sincere consequences including death due to a fire, guarding the battery's safety is a top priority during the design. Which means you don't give an a-technical user who screws up the opportunity to drive a screw into the battery in the first place. A dumb mistake.

It is also a dumb mistake of the manufacturer to solve the problem with a mere amendment in the installation instructions. This will not absolve them in an American court when another doorbell bursts into flames. They should have installed a metal plate in the doorbell to protect the battery.

Just puncturing the battery can cause a fire, due to the reaction of lithium and water you mentioned. The puncture can also cause a spark.

From Why Lithium Batteries Catch Fire

How Lithium Batteries Work
A lithium battery consists of two electrodes separated by an electrolyte. Typically, the batteries transfer electrical charge from a lithium metal cathode through an electrolyte consisting of an organic solvent containing lithium salts over to a carbon anode. The specifics depend on the battery, but lithium-ion batteries usually contain a metal coil and a flammable lithium-ion fluid. Tiny metal fragments float in the liquid. The contents of the battery are under pressure, so if a metal fragment punctures a partition that keeps the components separate or the battery is punctured, the lithium reacts with water in the air vigorously, generating high heat and sometimes producing a fire.


Why Lithium Batteries Catch Fire or Explode
Lithium batteries are made to deliver high output with minimal weight. Battery components are designed to be lightweight, which translates into thin partitions between cells and a thin outer covering. The partitions or coating are fairly fragile, so they can be punctured. If the battery is damaged, a short occurs. This spark can ignite the highly reactive lithium.

Another possibility is that the battery can heat to the point of thermal runaway. Here, the heat of the contents exerts pressure on the battery, potentially producing an explosion.

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-lithium-batteries-catch-fire-606814

Update: I just found out that the battery in the Ring Video Doorbell is a lithium-ion (as in rechargeable) battery, not a lithium primary battery. I do not know whether that has any effect on the details of the fire hazard posed by a puncture.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/9/16112752/ring-video-doorbell-2-security-camera-review

Quote from: Alex on November 11, 2020, 02:28 PM

Hmm, how does hacking a doorbell get you into the house .... 

I assume you are responding to me.  I said nothing about getting into the house.  I was talking about stealing the Ring Doorbell, if it is using some sort of security screw to prevent the theft of the ring doorbell, that will be defeated.

No, I was not responding to something you said, just wondering why it was necessary for the designers to fit the doorbell with security screws. As if tampering with a doorbell gets you anywhere.

No need to check regularly.  They offer a subscription service and they will email you recall notices each day at the end of the business day.  A quick scan of the items is all that you need to do. 

There is a blue toggle bar down towards the bottom of the page that says:

 Recalls

Never Miss a Recall
Choose Your Recall Emails

Fill in your email address and click what delivery option you want and you will get daily notices.

Here is one that may be of interest to people

    https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2021/Non-Contact-Voltage-Testers-Recalled-by-Klein-Tools-Due-to-Shock-Hazard

Seth

As a public service announcement type of post, I just wanted to let members in North America know that there is a website that you should check occasionally:  The Consumer Products Safety Commission.  This website has a listing of all recalls in effect.  I am posting this because just the other day I was in a Lowe's store returning extra materials and turned around and saw a flyer on the wall that was a recall for my kitchen range that had been issued in 2009.  Although I registered my range I was never notified of the recall.  In 2001 I had a fire in my house caused by a faulty fax machine.  Luckily I was there to put it out, but if not?  Again, I had registered that product and had not been notified.  The manufacturer chose to put a sticker on the ink jet refills for that machine instead of sending written notice to owners.

I am not being a sky is falling kind of guy here, just bringing it to your attention.

Here is the link:  US Consumer Protection Saftey Commission Website.

A link to the area where you can check by categories:  Searching by category  (When you select your category you need to click the find button.)

Be safe my friends!

Peter

You don't have to check it.  You can subscribe to notifications.  I get notifications automatically after I subscribed.  Usually it is one to four items and it usually comes once a week.  It takes seconds to scan the notifications.  I've notified friends when I've seen recalls on products they use.  So far nothing I use has been recalled.  I subscribed a few years back and I don't recall how I did it.  But visit the site and look for the option.  It's there.

I signed on to receive emails a few months ago. You will  not  get barraged with emails. Works very well.

Seth

Good Morning:

I just received a notice that a dehumidifier that I bought years ago has been recalled due to overheating and fire concerns.  Mine was on the list.

You may want to check out this link if you are in North America and have a portable dehumidifier:  http://www.newwidetech.com/en/news.php?act=view&id=9

Peter

One of the main reasons I signed up for alerts from CPSC was because we were pregnant, and I knew that I would probably start to get into the realm of owning more things that might be subject to recall.

Today was one such day; one of the wooden teethers we have was recalled because the string can untie and the beads come loose.  I think it was a registry gift, so we probably never would have known that without the subscription service or checking the website all of the time.

Of course, our week started with a different recall from the FDA over powdered formula; I checked at the store the night I read the recall notice and found that an entire section of shelving was going to have to be emptied.  We've switched brands until they can get things sorted out and hopefully we can get a refund for the cans we have; this stuff ain't cheap!  I've already received at least two e-mails from Amazon notifying me of the recall because I purchased the formula in larger quantities from them.

Peloton Recalls Two Million Exercise Bikes Due to Fall and Injury Hazards

Excerpt:
Name of Product:
Peloton Bikes Model PL01
Hazard:
The bike’s seat post assembly can break during use, posing fall and injury hazards to the user.

Remedy:
Repair
Recall Date:
May 11, 2023
Units:
About 2.2 million

[further down page]

Remedy:
Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled exercise bikes and contact Peloton for a free repair. Peloton is offering consumers a free seat post that can be self-installed.

Incidents/Injuries:
Peloton has received 35 reports of the seat post breaking and detaching from the bike during use, including 13 reports of injuries including a fractured wrist, lacerations and bruises due to falling from the bike.