Author Topic: I keep cutting things short!!  (Read 1821 times)

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Offline afish

  • Posts: 57
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2020, 10:08 PM »
I agree with the fastcap true 32 tape. I love that thing I even bought the flat version for my unisaw.  I work in metric for cabinet work but switch back to imperial for eveything else.  Old habits die hard.  I havent had any issues so far with the fastcap tapes not matching up between the two (handheld and saw).  Also when I use the end stops with my LR32 and have cut the panel based on 32mm it fits perfect between the stops, snug but not to snug and no slop.  I couldnt be happier but maybe I just got lucky...

Online Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 336
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2020, 11:30 PM »
the problem is the tape measures.  For some reason, almost all of them are in cm, no mm.   This makes it so easy to screw up when reading it.    You want say 236mm.   Your brain is expecting things like 100, 200, 300, and then between them. 10, 20, 30 markings, and then 1mm tick marks.   So,  200, ->30 -> 6 ticks,    but since almost all of them are in cm, you are looking at 10, 20, 30, 1, 2, 3...   It just sets up the path for issues.

The only tape I have found in the US that is any good marking wise is the true32 tape.  It works correctly (mm).  All the rest are in cm, I have messed up a lot with them.   As folks know from other threads, I'm very metric, these stupid cm tape measures cause nothing but issues.

I tend to concur.  The issue I have with FastCap tapes is that they're often less accurate than Hultafors tapes, for example.  In the attached photo, two Hultafors tapes (3M and 6M) are on top, and two FastCap tapes below.

I’ve many different measuring devices and often wondered which is correct (General Ultratech Caliper, Stanley tape measure, Kregg Multi-Purpose Marking, Lee Valley Long Life Folding, SS Starrett, Woodpecker, Oregon, and Incra rules).  I've double checked and everything is in alignment except the Oregon adhesive rule and Incra Lexicon scales. 

Besides the tape measure which can be off since the hook can flex, this is great to know since I use Incra fence with plastic scales and/or teeth for the MFT/3 fence, parallel guides, and miter sled ... now I know not to use the plastic scales on the same projects where I've used any of my other rules and vice-versa.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 03:08 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 984
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2020, 11:42 PM »
When I need to buy a new tape measure I go to a store that has lots of different brands, pull the tapes out to a long length and compare a bunch of tape readings. The ones that don't agree with the rest I discard and from the rest I select the one that  like.

This tape usually agrees with the ones that I have at home.

(This would be easier if I remembered to take one of the tapes from home with me.) [big grin]

Offline afish

  • Posts: 57
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2020, 08:15 AM »
I dont think that tape measure error is as huge of a deal as some.  I have only had one time that I remember that one tape was grossly wrong and it was a junk brand, I stay away from it anyways.  A 1/16 or mm or two shouldnt be a make or break scenario in most woodworking.  After all thats what fillers are for, there's going to be a lot more of variance in any wall than on two different tape measures. Yes its better to be consistent and use the same tape throughout the entire job.  Yes some tools or machines will have their own rule and if I am cutting or setting up to make a bunch of critical cuts I always let the tool start a cut then stop and pull out my tape and verify the saws rule matches my tape.  This practice comes from working in some large shops that might have 10 table saws and 200 carpenters working in it. So you never knew how accurate or what the guy before you did so you always had to verify.  At home you develop more trust in your equipment but its still a good practice.   

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1453
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2020, 02:50 PM »
As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m ;)

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Online Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 336
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2020, 04:06 PM »
As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m ;)

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".


Kind regards,
Oliver

I switched to metric a few years ago and this is my second project since doing it.  Adding/removing 0 isn't difficult and for me I believe it's the repeating 1-9 or 10,20,30, which causes improper reading of the rule. 

In this case, I was supposed to cut several boards at 1149mm but instead cut them at 1049mm which is 100mm short.  I suspect I pulled the tape measure out until I seen 100cm which is followed by 1 and my mind jumped to 1100 and then moved over to the 4 thinking I was where I needed to be.  The Stanley tape measure is the only metric rule I have which is labeled in this way ... all other rules are either numbered consecutively such as 100, 101, 102, etc., or are in mm.  In fact, the 8020 pieces I cut short were also measured with the Stanley tape measure.

Maybe it's only an accident waiting to happen for non-native metric persons but it seems this problem could be easily avoided altogether by printing the numbers consecutively.  Perhaps I'd still make the occasional error with cm to mm but I bet it would be far less of an issue than the repeating 1-9.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 04:09 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 875
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2020, 04:53 PM »
As a native metric'ian, I'd like to hear more about what you think the problem actually is.

I can understand that if metric isn't exactly "natural" for the user, switching between mm and cm can cause troubles/"accidents".

Like my Woodpecker Square(s) and also my German made Squares and T-Squares use mm. But my folding ruler(s) and most tape measures use cm.

So 110 (mm) on my Square is actually 11.0 cm and 110 (cm) on my folding rule or tape measure is 1.10 m

To me that has never been an issue, because, again, it's natural - and even if it wasn't: the size of the "300 mm" Square alone, screams "it's mm" because that's never going to be 300cm or 3m ;)

I'd ban every tape measure from the shop that starts at "1" again after "10".


Kind regards,
Oliver

I switched to metric a few years ago and this is my second project since doing it.  Adding/removing 0 isn't difficult and for me I believe it's the repeating 1-9 or 10,20,30, which causes improper reading of the rule. 

In this case, I was supposed to cut several boards at 1149mm but instead cut them at 1049mm which is 100mm short.  I suspect I pulled the tape measure out until I seen 100cm which is followed by 1 and my mind jumped to 1100 and then moved over to the 4 thinking I was where I needed to be.  The Stanley tape measure is the only metric rule I have which is labeled in this way ... all other rules are either numbered consecutively such as 100, 101, 102, etc., or are in mm.  In fact, the 8020 pieces I cut short were also measured with the Stanley tape measure.

Maybe it's only an accident waiting to happen for non-native metric persons but it seems this problem could be easily avoided altogether by printing the numbers consecutively.  Perhaps I'd still make the occasional error with cm to mm but I bet it would be far less of an issue than the repeating 1-9.

Your case is exactly the exampled I gave in the other thread I liked to above.  When you go over 1m, things get screwy fast.

Its really just frustrating as it doesn't need to be this way, there is no reason for cm, it's defeating a big purpose of metric and bring numbers to the other side of the decimal, which is just one more thing to deal with.   Adding to it, aside from tape measures, almost nothing is in cm, especially the stuff woodworkers are using.     Drills, Bits, Tools, hardware, 32mm cabinets, sliders, material thicknesses, on and on,  everything is in mm,  so randomly injecting cm in there is just absurd.   From a lifetime of seeing people struggle with/dislike metric,  centimeters are one of the core problems, when you have mm and m, things make sense, and the use case is there, suddenly using this other unit here and there that is getting closer to an inch, but not an inch,  adds one more unit (remember, trying to get away from fractions, thou's, inches, feet, yards, and trim down to mm and m).  You will not find many anti-metric folks who don't use cm as a core of their arguments against metric.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1453
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2020, 05:11 PM »
I hear what you say about "cm" and I can even see the "problem" you're addressing - but to be honest, for native metric users, it simply isn't one. It is done/used every day like that. And the process of simply changing the decimal dot feels/is natural.

Everything above 1m would mean a 4 figure number in mm. That's not really practical to work with (at those lengths), that's why cm are used. And it's the same vice versa: a 12 mm drill bit "makes more sense" than a 1.2 cm drill bit. It just "naturally grew/ evolved"

But I guess it all comes down to what you are truly used to. I bought myself a tape measure that has a metric and fractional scale, just to better understand FOG posts when fractional measurements are used, to get a "feel" for it, so to speak. And I'm sure, if I started to do projects with inches/fractional measurements, I'd make the same mistakes.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Online Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 336
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #38 on: Yesterday at 06:07 PM »
FWIW - I ordered a Starrett adhesive rule and not only does it align perfect to my SS Starrett rules but it fits inside the Incra tracks.  The Incra Lexicon scales aren’t off by a lot but if you wish to have all rules the same, this is a suitable replacement.

I also received the Fastcap True32 tape measure and it’s only off by about 0.5mm after 1000mm which seems acceptable to me.  More importantly, it’s in mm rather than cm which should eliminate errors, has 32mm markings which is helpful, and some other standard 32mm cabinet design markings which may or may not be helpful.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 57
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #39 on: Yesterday at 07:33 PM »
FWIW - I ordered a Starrett adhesive rule and not only does it align perfect to my SS Starrett rules but it fits inside the Incra tracks.  The Incra Lexicon scales aren’t off by a lot but if you wish to have all rules the same, this is a suitable replacement.

I also received the Fastcap True32 tape measure and it’s only off by about 0.5mm after 1000mm which seems acceptable to me.  More importantly, it’s in mm rather than cm which should eliminate errors, has 32mm markings which is helpful, and some other standard 32mm cabinet design markings which may or may not be helpful.

If you do a lot of the 32mm cabinets I think you will really like the true 32 tape.  not only is it all in mm as you pointed out but the 32mm marks should help with errors too.  You can also write on the tape since it has a matte finish so that should also help if you are doing a lot of repetitive measuring for a particular dimension or have some standard dimensions for cabinet heights/depths. Its not the most durable tape but they are cheap enough to replace when they wear out.  Mine has a pretty fast recoil so you may have to watch out for that.  Fastcap also makes a true32 peel and stick version for tablesaws that has both mm with the 32mm marks and imperial scale on it which is also nice. 

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 875
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #40 on: Yesterday at 08:34 PM »
I hear what you say about "cm" and I can even see the "problem" you're addressing - but to be honest, for native metric users, it simply isn't one. It is done/used every day like that. And the process of simply changing the decimal dot feels/is natural.

Everything above 1m would mean a 4 figure number in mm. That's not really practical to work with (at those lengths), that's why cm are used. And it's the same vice versa: a 12 mm drill bit "makes more sense" than a 1.2 cm drill bit. It just "naturally grew/ evolved"

But I guess it all comes down to what you are truly used to. I bought myself a tape measure that has a metric and fractional scale, just to better understand FOG posts when fractional measurements are used, to get a "feel" for it, so to speak. And I'm sure, if I started to do projects with inches/fractional measurements, I'd make the same mistakes.

Kind regards,
Oliver

So while you aren't wrong if you grew up using cm and mm back and forth, as as been brought up in other threads, even in metric countries, usage of cm is limited.  From working with folks around the world, and some comments here, it's understood there is some heavy cm usage in northern parts of continental Europe  (parts of Germany, lands to the northwest), else where they aren't used, and those folks have the same issues and grew up metric.

I use metric in my professional carrier, we do it all in mm, there is no cm.  Going over 1m in mm is not a issue.  You would have to hit 10m before a discussion of this would even come up. Not many things get that big, and if you did, you would just use meters.  But calling out say 2125mm on a print is perfectly normal. It's also how drawing standards and dimensional control standards work.  If metric, you use mm, if inch, you use inches. I have worked with many people/companies from many European Countries, haven't seen a cm yet.

Around my house, when doing stuff in metric, i do it in mm, have done wall framing in it just fine.  Cutting a stud to 2286mm, not problem, no way in heck would I try doing 228.6cm  2286 is just so much easier to think than 228.6

The real core issue is simply why tape measures a generally in cm?  I've looked into ordering some from other countries just to get mm ones. It's not like you find inch tape measures that are in yards  (yes they do in fact exist in some niches),  sure it's a unit that exist, but outside of sports we don't use it.  Tapes marked out with cm,  is like finding tape measures in yards instead of feet/inch.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2190
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #41 on: Yesterday at 10:26 PM »
So while you aren't wrong if you grew up using cm and mm back and forth, as as been brought up in other threads, even in metric countries, usage of cm is limited.  From working with folks around the world, and some comments here, it's understood there is some heavy cm usage in northern parts of continental Europe  (parts of Germany, lands to the northwest), else where they aren't used, and those folks have the same issues and grew up metric.
Not quite, cm is used in everyday life everywhere. Nobody expresses things of human or furniture scale in mm. Look at IKEA labels, for example. To say someone is 1815 mm tall would be really strange. You'd say 181.5 cm. Strictly mm are more common in design or engineering. Once you go down in scale, sure, 18 mm ply, 40 mm board, 50 mm screw.
I've never met a person outside of US who had "issues" with cm and mm. I'm not being condescending, there is just no issue, the two are an order of magnitude apart. If a drawing calls for 70 cm wide table you wouldn't measure and cut it 70 mm (3") wide by accident, not even blindfolded.
Earlier people pointed out inconvenience of rulers in cm. This is how it's supposed to be. You wouldn't label an imperial tape in 1/32" where instead of 12" you'd read 384.
Tapes marked out with cm,  is like finding tape measures in yards instead of feet/inch.
Tapes marked out with cm is like tape measures in inches, which is how they usually are. People use cm in situations where you use inch in US. A chair is 18" tall, a chair is 45 cm tall. That's why most rules/tapes are in cm.

Also, I never cut thing short.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:19 PM by Svar »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1973
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #42 on: Yesterday at 10:45 PM »
Snip.
To say someone is 1815 mm tall would be really strange. You'd say 181.5 cm.

My Canadian driver's licence (not license [tongue]) says I'm xxx cm in height & xx kg, not xxxxx, gm in weight. Even though we've gone metric as a country (km per hour, for example), we still buy lumber by board foot, and label sheet goods as 4 x 8, etc. The truth is, whether I use imperial or metric or a mix of the two, I need to be careful to avoid making mistakes. Patience and carefulness go hand in hand a long way in getting good outcomes in fine woodworking no matter what systems or tools you use.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:55 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1092
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #43 on: Today at 06:07 AM »
My Canadian driver's licence (not license [tongue]) says I'm xxx cm in height & xx kg, not xxxxx, gm in weight. ...

Why would someone's weight be printed on a driver's licence? My weight is pretty variable, and my European/Belgian driver's licence doesn't have an experation date (current one is issued 2008 because I lost my wallet)
I just checked my canadian passport, my weight isn't mentioned in that.


« Last Edit: Today at 06:09 AM by Frank-Jan »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 1973
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #44 on: Today at 10:02 AM »
Interesting question, and you can find all kinds of answers (guesses) on the web why people think weight is included on the licences. Not every province (or state in the US) adopts the same standard: Quebec or Ontario, for example, doesn't collect weight for its driver's licences. I know some (all?) provinces issue licences that can list your gender as "X".


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 875
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #45 on: Today at 11:31 AM »
My Canadian driver's licence (not license [tongue]) says I'm xxx cm in height & xx kg, not xxxxx, gm in weight. ...

Why would someone's weight be printed on a driver's licence? My weight is pretty variable, and my European/Belgian driver's licence doesn't have an experation date (current one is issued 2008 because I lost my wallet)
I just checked my canadian passport, my weight isn't mentioned in that.

In the US, all licenses have persons weight, along with a bunch of other info to help match the license to the corpse.  Worse now is they have bar codes that businesses scan (some states are banning this practice, except for those it was intended for (smoke/booze sales, cops).   Yes, your weight changes, so does our hair.  What if you had a beard the day of the photo and the next week shaved it off, new glasses, got a perm, etc.   

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6701
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #46 on: Today at 02:41 PM »
even in metric countries, usage of cm is limited.  From working with folks around the world, and some comments here, it's understood there is some heavy cm usage in northern parts of continental Europe  (parts of Germany, lands to the northwest), else where they aren't used, and those folks have the same issues and grew up metric.

No. Simply not true.

For anything human-size, and the objects humans work with, cm is the preferred and most used unit because it relates most to our human size. People in all metric countries use the cm most of all and are very used to them.

I use metric in my professional carrier, we do it all in mm, there is no cm. 
.....
I have worked with many people/companies from many European Countries, haven't seen a cm yet.

In science and engineering the cm is banned. This is done to avoid confusion. In those fields, you often have to put in measures in computers and machines, on drawings and plans, and using the cm proved to cause too much mistakes with the comma. So they made it a standard to only use mm and m because they are a factor 1000 apart so mistakes are easy to spot.

Now don't tell us science knows better, that's completely irrelevant. Science knows what's best, in THEIR field.

But for normal days use, the human psyche relates best to numbers that are not too big, and are whole numbers, so no fractions or commas. If you pick up a pen and judge its size, you don't say it's 0,15 meters or 150 millimeters, you say it is 15 centimeters. Because we like 15 as a number best.
 
Cutting a stud to 2286mm, not problem, no way in heck would I try doing 228.6cm  2286 is just so much easier to think than 228.6

Dead wrong again. 228,6 is easiest to remember and comprehend. Looks like you're struggling with metric, don't blame the system because you are not used enough to it yet. In fact, with a number like that, you just know you're in the 2 meter range, and remember it like 28,6 and add the 200 automatically without thinking.

The real core issue is simply why tape measures a generally in cm?  I've looked into ordering some from other countries just to get mm ones. It's not like you find inch tape measures that are in yards  (yes they do in fact exist in some niches),  sure it's a unit that exist, but outside of sports we don't use it.  Tapes marked out with cm,  is like finding tape measures in yards instead of feet/inch.

Very odd comment. cm to inch factor = 2,54 and cm to yard factor = 91. Meter to yard factor = 0,91.

Looks like the cm is MUCH closer to the inch than to the yard. And the meter is closest to the yard.

So why would you compare a tape in cm to a tape in yards?

As I said above, all metric tapes are in cm because that size is understood best by the human mind. But yes, why would you, with your limited experience in metric believe those 7 billion people who grew up with it?
« Last Edit: Today at 04:19 PM by Alex »

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1453
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #47 on: Today at 03:42 PM »
So while you aren't wrong if you grew up using cm and mm back and forth, as as been brought up in other threads, even in metric countries, usage of cm is limited.  From working with folks around the world, and some comments here, it's understood there is some heavy cm usage in northern parts of continental Europe  (parts of Germany, lands to the northwest), else where they aren't used, and those folks have the same issues and grew up metric.
Not quite, cm is used in everyday life everywhere. Nobody expresses things of human or furniture scale in mm. Look at IKEA labels, for example. To say someone is 1815 mm tall would be really strange. You'd say 181.5 cm. Strictly mm are more common in design or engineering. Once you go down in scale, sure, 18 mm ply, 40 mm board, 50 mm screw.

(...)


Hi!

This is basically exactly what I tried to convey @DeformedTree .

Yes, mm are used in (technical) drawings, for scientific purposes, (partly) in standardization and a whole lot of other things. Yes, mm is a scientific unit. People who work in the metal industry or with metal in general, tend to use mm over cm. But I honestly have no knowledge on how they communicate these numbers when speaking to each other, but sure, the drawing will be in mm.

But outside that world, "the spoken word" uses cm (or m).

So if I'm working with a neighbor on a shed, and we need to cut some battens. It goes like this:

How long does it need to be?

"One meter, eighty-six." or "One-hundred-eighty-six." or "One-eighty-six".

No one would say "One-thousand-eight-hundred-and-sixty". And none of the commonly used (measuring) tools would be able to display this.

If I ask for a drill bit, I ask for a "ten mm drill bit" or for a "eighty-six mm hole saw". If it's a long drill bit, it's a 400 mm drill bit, not a 40 cm drill bit.

I hope this simply adds to the understanding of how "we" naturally use these units. This is really how it's used everyday, hence it is not confusing for us. Just as natural, as the "fun fact" that (threaded) pipe diameters are still given in inch. It's a half-inch pipe, it's a 3/4" pipe ... .


Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 875
Re: I keep cutting things short!!
« Reply #48 on: Today at 09:20 PM »

 
Cutting a stud to 2286mm, not problem, no way in heck would I try doing 228.6cm  2286 is just so much easier to think than 228.6

Dead wrong again. 228,6 is easiest to remember and comprehend. Looks like you're struggling with metric, don't blame the system because you are not used enough to it yet. In fact, with a number like that, you just know you're in the 2 meter range, and remember it like 28,6 and add the 200 automatically without thinking.


How is 228.6 easier to remember?  You just added floating point.  I'm not struggling with metric, nor not used to it.   If I'm going to go that route I would go 2.286 .

Humans want whole numbers, it's just easier.  The beauty of mm is you don't need to go the other side of the decimal much.  While I hate fractions and all their issues it's pretty easy to see why people used them verses decimal inches for so long before the computer age. 

We talk 2286 just fine.  Pretty sure when talking to folks from Europe the phone company doesn't translate their speech real time to make cm come out mm on our end.   Twenty-Two  Eighty-six  rolls off just fine verses  Two-Hundred Twenty-Eight Point-Six.

I sorta wonder if some of you guys say out numbers differently from us.