Author Topic: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?  (Read 3293 times)

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Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7654
Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« on: August 20, 2015, 06:04 AM »
I'm possibly exposing a massive amount of dumbness right now, but why do we not see innovation in the circular saw bade anywhere other than the teeth? (Apologies if it's out there and I'm simply unaware)

Things like replaceable outer tooth rings, etc or maybe some low profile fixing system for individually replaceable teeth. Obviously it would be horrible if stuff started flying off and the physics of this could be my simple answer.

Just curious [smile]

Offline aas

  • Posts: 123
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2015, 06:40 AM »
We have seen a lot of innovation in circular saw design - kerf width. Blades are thinner now than we would have previously thought possible, and they stay true. Also, I would say that teeth are lost less than before, i.e. thay are better attached.

Once you start getting into the things you suggest, blades will getter thicker, heavier, and more expensive - and for what gain?.. none, because you will then have potentially very dangerous blades - i.e. bits flying off!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7654
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2015, 06:57 AM »
I hear ya .. but I still question where we are with saw blade innovation. You're really just telling me that My assumption is true.

My recent experience with 6mm chainsaw blades on some new Stihl cordless kit is questioning if we've come far at all. We've recently celebrated 200 years of the circular saw blade and it's got thinner, sharper and better balanced and ... ??? nothing else?

Offline WarnerConstCo.

  • Posts: 4184
    • Warner Mill Works
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2015, 07:06 AM »
Uh, carbide.

Big improvement over steel tipped blades.

Offline CrazyLarry

  • Posts: 276
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2015, 07:29 AM »
You could also consider that all the things aas has mentioned have taken place not with an increase in cost or the need for expensive boutique manufacture but by the opposite: mass manufacture, economies of scale, laser brazing by machines / robots, CAD based modelling and evolution.

Just a brief look at all the variety of materials that can be cut and the differences in tooth profile (especially beyond festool products), expansion slots, toothless cooling profiles, sintered diamond / tct combos, there's really a huge variation compared with say the circular blade of a sawmill of yesteryear or a handsaw where set angle / type and tooth size / density and sharpening are all you had to play with.

Consider how many tradesman would even think of sharpening an irwin / bahco / stanley handsaw? But then it doesn't cost a day's wages for a new one like it used too... The same applies to powertool consumables or at least it's going that way.

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3782
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2015, 07:30 AM »
I'm possibly exposing a massive amount of dumbness right now, but why do we not see innovation in the circular saw bade anywhere other than the teeth? (Apologies if it's out there and I'm simply unaware)

Things like replaceable outer tooth rings, etc or maybe some low profile fixing system for individually replaceable teeth. Obviously it would be horrible if stuff started flying off and the physics of this could be my simple answer.

Just curious [smile]

I am not sure if you are serious, or not.

I think that with better metals and better tooth design, saw blades for all types of woodworking have made tremendous advances within the years i have been working with wood (a few extended periods of not working with wood within the total time period  stating when my dad gave me a workbench, saw and hammer way back in 1938 or '39).  The last couple of blades I bought for my table saw gave a cut so smooth I barely needed to do any sanding.  I had used several thin kerf blades, but they would begin to warp if the teeth were not perfectly sharpened (slightly dulled).  When i switched back to regular kerf blades, I got much longer use.  I understand there have been improvements since I retired my table saw back in the late 90's.

My circular saw blades I never tried thin kerfs, as i used my big milwaukee (8-1/4") for all kinds of work, much of it sawing into boards impregnated with cement and nails. when i discovered Festoys and drank the green koolaid, i found blades that gave silky smooth finish cuts. the only sanding I might need wood be to very slightly rough up the edges before glueing.  Especially if i don't glue right away after the cutting.  I have a SCMS that leaves just as smooth a cut.  where can improvements be made?

Even cutting the very roughest and nail/cent impregnated lumber (going back 60+ years), i never had a tooth fly off (I don't remember when carbide teeth were added) of a blade.  I did break many teeth over the years, but with my Festoy blades, i still find the occasional nail but have, so far, not even chipped a tooth.

Blades are stronger, the teeth are better designed and they cut almost perfectly smooth (sometimes almost too smooth)  I have not gone back to thin kerfed blades, but i understand they no longer warp as quickly. A sign of better metallurgy. I think the improvements have been made in the correct direction. 

Tinker

Wayne H. Tinker

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 1023
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2015, 07:55 AM »
I recently purchased a Makita blade that was designed to cut wood but also handle nails. The tungsten teeth were not just brazed onto the blade they were embedded into the rim. Probably a grade of tungsten that is comfortable with cutting steel.

Compared with the early blades, and I even had sawmill blades with clip in replaceable teeth, the current blades are far more durable, cut better, are thinner, quieter and cooler.

There has been a steady gradual improvement in blade technology over the years with a corresponding lowering in cost. My first TCT blade cost several weeks wages and was very fragile.

Because it has been gradual you could say that there has not been any "innovation" but really todays blades are a world of difference to those that we had fifty years ago.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 1023
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2015, 08:00 AM »
I hear ya .. but I still question where we are with saw blade innovation. You're really just telling me that My assumption is true.

My recent experience with 6mm chainsaw blades on some new Stihl cordless kit is questioning if we've come far at all. We've recently celebrated 200 years of the circular saw blade and it's got thinner, sharper and better balanced and ... ??? nothing else?

@Kev Have you tried TCT chainsaw blades?

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7654
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2015, 08:17 AM »
I hear ya .. but I still question where we are with saw blade innovation. You're really just telling me that My assumption is true.

My recent experience with 6mm chainsaw blades on some new Stihl cordless kit is questioning if we've come far at all. We've recently celebrated 200 years of the circular saw blade and it's got thinner, sharper and better balanced and ... ??? nothing else?

@Kev Have you tried TCT chainsaw blades?

Actually picking one up with a new bar for one of my chainsaws this coming weekend if it arrives at the shop. Crazy that a few weeks ago I had 1, now I've got 4 and I'm tweaking them [eek]

Looking forward to seeing what it's like!

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7654
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2015, 08:33 AM »

I am not sure if you are serious, or not.

Tinker

Never! [wink]

I get all of the "tooth tech" and the improvement in materials and I certainly don't consider that to be a small thing of itself. I also get some of the slotting for expansion and heat dissipation, etc.

My thoughts were actually drawn to the fact that if you have a steel 12" saw blade that needs sharpening and a good sharpening service is a long way away .. the postage both ways and the time delay isn't trivial. That's why I was pondering alternatives ... things like outer toothed rings, replaceable teeth, extremely narrow chain on a disk etc.

Remember, the higher tech the blade, the less likely Fred down the road can sharpen it effectively.

I can see significant issues with all of the things that I've mentioned, but human ingenuity can solve some amazing problems.


Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3782
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2015, 08:28 PM »
I just keep spares.
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline travisj

  • Posts: 365
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2015, 01:28 AM »
Freud's coatings, Tenru's anti-vibration, carbide cutters, all great advancements.  I don't think the need or the money is there to push even more technology.  Simplicity is the key.  If it isn't broke, don't fix it. 

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2851
Re: Circular saw blade design - are we just traditional?
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2015, 06:57 AM »
I realize that most of the FOG members are mostly wood butchering but I work with aluminum and plastics more than anything.  Modern blades make that easy.  I also install commercial steel entrances and we do commercial locksmithing.  The new cermet steel cutting blades area amazing.  I can cut through an 16 or 18 ga door to retro fit lites with my 118V cordless Milwaukee without even removing the door.  The blades leave an edge that you can run a finger over and the chips are amazingly small.