Author Topic: A Website to Check Regularly  (Read 65585 times)

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Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2020, 10:29 AM »
Wow, imagine your design being so vulnerable that the use of the wrong type of screws can mean the difference between fire and not fire. I can't wrap my head around that, seems to me you'd better avoid such a product entirely.

It's not hard to see at all.  This is the very thing that the vast majority of recalls are about.  Something could be loose, something could be over tight,  something could be a bit to close, if installer does something just a hair off.  Recalls are rarely some major thing or obvious thing, it's the whole reason this happens.  Folks designing stuff can plan for a fair bit of things, but they can't plan for everything.   Plan for someone using too big of a screw, someone will find an even bigger screw.  And when any of that happens it's on the manufactures because no one will accept they installed it wrong and they are at fault, everyone runs right back to the manufacture and blames them.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 11:57 AM by DeformedTree »

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1795
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2020, 10:47 AM »
Of course if you think an over 1 inch long wood screw should be used to secure the doorbell to the mounting bracket then you probably didn't read the installation instructions and don't have a clue as how to install anything. It would be like using a 16d nail to hang sheetrock.

I have the doorbell in question. Reading the instructions I had no trouble understanding them and using the correct screw in the correct location. The instructions clearly describe and illustrate which screw to use where.

This recall is about protecting those who refuse to read the manual from themselves.
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It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2020, 12:02 PM »

This recall is about protecting those who refuse to read the manual from themselves.

Ding!

Type in IKEA in the search, it's tons of this sort of thing.  Everything at IKEA is a laceration danger.   Not sure how it works elsewhere in the world, but in the US, companies have to live in constant fear of people suing them because the people refused to read/use correctly/understand physics/etc.

Online RustE

  • Posts: 472
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2020, 12:14 PM »
...
Not sure how it works elsewhere in the world, but in the US, companies have to live in constant fear of people suing them because the people refused to read/use correctly/understand physics/etc.

Hence instruction manuals with chainsaws have “DO NOT ATTEMPT TO STOP CHAIN WITH HANDS” only in English (American).  Once upon a time, I heard or read a comment that anywhere else in the world a person would be too embarrassed to admit to doing such.

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 32
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2020, 01:07 PM »
The revised installation instructions for the Ring Video Doorbell (2nd Generation) are here:

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/articles/360040763632

The illustration showing the difference between the correct short security screws and the incorrect lengthy wood screws is funny. I will not spoil the other amusing detail.

From the dramatic conclusion:

Secure your Video Doorbell.

CAUTION!


If you use the wrong screws to secure the Video Doorbell, you could damage the battery during installation, create a fire hazard, and be seriously injured.

DO NOT USE any screw other than the included short security screws when securing your Video Doorbell to the bracket.
Use the star-shaped end of the included screwdriver to drive the two security screws into the bottom of your
 Video Doorbell.
 

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2020, 01:24 PM »
interesting there is Europe and US instructions.   They are laid out different, but in the end the same.  I like how in the US it is "use a 1/4" drill bit",  in the EU it's "use the included drill bit".  So sounds like they rather include a drillbit for Europe verses ship with metric anchors?  Not like anyone ever uses included hardware for stuff like that.   I figured that was where the issue was, but no, it's the screw internal to the setup.  Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 32
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2020, 01:57 PM »
interesting there is Europe and US instructions.   They are laid out different, but in the end the same.  I like how in the US it is "use a 1/4" drill bit",  in the EU it's "use the included drill bit".  So sounds like they rather include a drillbit for Europe verses ship with metric anchors?  Not like anyone ever uses included hardware for stuff like that.   I figured that was where the issue was, but no, it's the screw internal to the setup.  Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

If the screw that the Ring people include is a security screw, rather than a regular Torx screw, then including a security screwdriver significantly increases the number of such tools owned by the general public. I recall that years ago, buying such screwdrivers online required submitting a scan of a company letterhead.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6867
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2020, 02:21 PM »
It's not hard to see at all.  This is the very thing that the vast majority of recalls are about.  Something could be loose, something could be over tight,  something could be a bit to close, if installer does something just a hair off.  Recalls are rarely some major thing or obvious thing, it's the whole reason this happens.

Well, I wasn't talking about the reasons and merits of recalls in general, but about this specific case.

Which was described on that website as an OVERHEATING problem, due to using the wrong screws. And that just sounded weird in my head. User installed screws should have no bearing on the heat a battery generates or dissipates. If it does, that's a mayor design flaw.

But the real trouble here is PUNCTURING the battery. Now I understand that a battery bursting in flames due to the reaction of lithium and water can technically be called a form of overheating, but I think most people would call it PUNCTURING.   [tongue]

Folks designing stuff can plan for a fair bit of things, but they can't plan for everything.   

They could, and should have anticipated this. The volatility of lithium-ion batteries is a well known fact in the engineering world. As problems with them can lead to sincere consequences including death due to a fire, guarding the battery's safety is a top priority during the design. Which means you don't give an a-technical user who screws up the opportunity to drive a screw into the battery in the first place. A dumb mistake.

It is also a dumb mistake of the manufacturer to solve the problem with a mere amendment in the installation instructions. This will not absolve them in an American court when another doorbell bursts into flames. They should have installed a metal plate in the doorbell to protect the battery.

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2020, 02:25 PM »
Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

If the screw that the Ring people include is a security screw, rather than a regular Torx screw, then including a security screwdriver significantly increases the number of such tools owned by the general public. I recall that years ago, buying such screwdrivers online required submitting a scan of a company letterhead.

"security screws" have always been a BS idea.  They just cause more screw types to be invented, more tools needed, etc. They are secure for all of the couple days till someone makes the matching tool for them so people can work on their stuff.  Apple has been bad about this for years. If someone wants to steal rings, they will just find the correct screw driver and start stealing them.

Between the potential for being lost and no easy way to have a replacement, or the possibility it's a security torx and folks don't have the tool, this just sets things up for people to find another way.

This could be a case of people may not be using the product right, but if you set it up where they have few options but to use it wrong, then it comes back on Ring.   Use a common fastener, put information in the documentation on what the screw is. If it said "use a M6x20 screw" (I have no idea the size, thus the point), then folks could find alternative screw.  This gets to a way to reduce a lot of hazards with products.  Provide good information that helps people support the products they buy.  Don't act like everything about it is special, and usage of any other part but OEM bits will cause death and destruction.  People will find a way, it's best to show them how to do it right.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6867
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2020, 02:28 PM »
Hmm, how does hacking a doorbell get you into the house ....  [scratch chin]

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 32
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2020, 02:38 PM »
It's not hard to see at all.  This is the very thing that the vast majority of recalls are about.  Something could be loose, something could be over tight,  something could be a bit to close, if installer does something just a hair off.  Recalls are rarely some major thing or obvious thing, it's the whole reason this happens.

Well, I wasn't talking about the reasons and merits of recalls in general, but about this specific case.

Which was described on that website as an OVERHEATING problem, due to using the wrong screws. And that just sounded weird in my head. User installed screws should have no bearing on the heat a battery generates or dissipates. If it does, that's a mayor design flaw.

But the real trouble here is PUNCTURING the battery. Now I understand that a battery bursting in flames due to the reaction of lithium and water can technically be called a form of overheating, but I think most people would call it PUNCTURING.   [tongue]

Folks designing stuff can plan for a fair bit of things, but they can't plan for everything.   

They could, and should have anticipated this. The volatility of lithium-ion batteries is a well known fact in the engineering world. As problems with them can lead to sincere consequences including death due to a fire, guarding the battery's safety is a top priority during the design. Which means you don't give an a-technical user who screws up the opportunity to drive a screw into the battery in the first place. A dumb mistake.

It is also a dumb mistake of the manufacturer to solve the problem with a mere amendment in the installation instructions. This will not absolve them in an American court when another doorbell bursts into flames. They should have installed a metal plate in the doorbell to protect the battery.

Just puncturing the battery can cause a fire, due to the reaction of lithium and water you mentioned. The puncture can also cause a spark.

From Why Lithium Batteries Catch Fire

How Lithium Batteries Work
A lithium battery consists of two electrodes separated by an electrolyte. Typically, the batteries transfer electrical charge from a lithium metal cathode through an electrolyte consisting of an organic solvent containing lithium salts over to a carbon anode. The specifics depend on the battery, but lithium-ion batteries usually contain a metal coil and a flammable lithium-ion fluid. Tiny metal fragments float in the liquid. The contents of the battery are under pressure, so if a metal fragment punctures a partition that keeps the components separate or the battery is punctured, the lithium reacts with water in the air vigorously, generating high heat and sometimes producing a fire.


Why Lithium Batteries Catch Fire or Explode
Lithium batteries are made to deliver high output with minimal weight. Battery components are designed to be lightweight, which translates into thin partitions between cells and a thin outer covering. The partitions or coating are fairly fragile, so they can be punctured. If the battery is damaged, a short occurs. This spark can ignite the highly reactive lithium.

Another possibility is that the battery can heat to the point of thermal runaway. Here, the heat of the contents exerts pressure on the battery, potentially producing an explosion.

https://www.thoughtco.com/why-lithium-batteries-catch-fire-606814

Update: I just found out that the battery in the Ring Video Doorbell is a lithium-ion (as in rechargeable) battery, not a lithium primary battery. I do not know whether that has any effect on the details of the fire hazard posed by a puncture.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/9/16112752/ring-video-doorbell-2-security-camera-review

« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 04:04 PM by Charles959 »

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 971
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2020, 11:16 PM »
Hmm, how does hacking a doorbell get you into the house ....  [scratch chin]

I assume you are responding to me.  I said nothing about getting into the house.  I was talking about stealing the Ring Doorbell, if it is using some sort of security screw to prevent the theft of the ring doorbell, that will be defeated.

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 6867
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2020, 03:45 AM »
Hmm, how does hacking a doorbell get you into the house ....  [scratch chin]

I assume you are responding to me.  I said nothing about getting into the house.  I was talking about stealing the Ring Doorbell, if it is using some sort of security screw to prevent the theft of the ring doorbell, that will be defeated.

No, I was not responding to something you said, just wondering why it was necessary for the designers to fit the doorbell with security screws. As if tampering with a doorbell gets you anywhere.

Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 985
Re: A Website to Check Regularly
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2020, 11:03 AM »
interesting there is Europe and US instructions.   They are laid out different, but in the end the same.  I like how in the US it is "use a 1/4" drill bit",  in the EU it's "use the included drill bit".  So sounds like they rather include a drillbit for Europe verses ship with metric anchors?  Not like anyone ever uses included hardware for stuff like that.   I figured that was where the issue was, but no, it's the screw internal to the setup.  Why would someone not use the screw?  I'm left to assume it's an oddball screw so if someone drops/looses it, they have no idea what do and probably just grab a handy drywall screw.  Maybe time for captive hardware.

The purpose of the screw is to make it harder for a casual prankster or criminal to futz with your doorbell. The various security screw drivers can be purchased from multiple places online.
If the screw that the Ring people include is a security screw, rather than a regular Torx screw, then including a security screwdriver significantly increases the number of such tools owned by the general public. I recall that years ago, buying such screwdrivers online required submitting a scan of a company letterhead.