Clarification on Rules Regarding Competitive Product Postings

[woodie]

Over the years I've seen many discussions on this forum regarding alternatives to Festool and open discussions comparing the merits or faults of these products. These threads have included nearly every Festool product, including Tracksaws, Battery Drill/Impact Drivers, the CMS Router table, Routers, Multi-Function Table, Sanders, etc, etc...  In light of the recent thread that was locked, I'm curious if these types of threads will be allowed moving forward?

[Festool USA]

We do not have rules on the forum, we have guidelines. The difference in my opinion is that guidelines are not inclusive of every single possible scenario, but general concepts for our forum members to follow.

The issue with the thread in question is that there were posts to another forum that advocates another power tool brand. Those links were edited to type around our forum's word filter. I had corresponded with Matt, owner of that forum, back in March that we would not allow promotion of his forum on the FOG.

Also, members were posting videos and links to content produced by a forum member who was banned, Sander who is the owner of a Mafell dealer in the Netherlands.

So, several of the forum guidelines were clearly broken in a single thread ending in the thread ultimately being locked.

Shane

[woodie]

Your earlier statement on locking the Mafell thread said something about competitive products hence the question. I see that part has been edited now.

I knew Sander and his videos were banned from the forum, I didn't realize the Mafell forum was.

[Festool USA]

My post was edited after a PM exchange with a member who posted in the thread and I didn't want my post to be perceived in the wrong way.

In essence, it stated that I felt there was some strong promoting going on. That would include typing around the word filter to promote a forum that advocates another power tool brand.

Look guys, I think I was more than fair in how long the thread went on. I don't mind comparisons of other products, reviews of other brands, etc. But I think that thread clearly crossed a line.

Shane

[Paul G]

I respect the biased content being banned from FOG, the part that is confusing for me Shane is saying "Please don't start another thread on the topic." Is the Mafell track saw the topic in question or Mafell in general?

[Festool USA]

I respect the biased content being banned from FOG, the part that is confusing for me Shane is saying "Please don't start another thread on the topic." Is the Mafell track saw the topic in question or Mafell in general?

I have nothing against posts or conversations about Mafell or their products. What I didn't want to happen is another thread to be started that was a continuation of the thread that was locked.

There are plenty of threads here about Mafell and their products.

I probably should have stepped in sooner and given some guidance or warnings, but I have been preoccupied and not been on the forum as much lately. So, I accept some of the responsibility.

Shane

[Alan m]

i understand the problem with biased reviewing and all the sander  trouble..
what i dont understand is the banning of links to the mafel forum. that makes no sence to me
is that ban covering all forums promoting (or run by ) competiting brands .
dewalt,bosch,etc have forums. can we post links to those forums

[Festool USA]

Alan, I think this is something that will be left to the discretion of myself and the moderators. It will depend on the circumstances.

In this particular case, myself and GhostFist had corresponded offline (6 months ago) that we would not allow his forum to be promoted here. I'd like to publicly thank him for his professionalism and understanding.

Shane

[skinee]

shane as you are aware it was I who "typed around the word filter", I did this to try to help fidelfs clarify his link, I had hoped at the time that there was a software glitch but given the  recent history of suppressed and locked threads I also had a underlying suspicion of something else afoot, regrettebly this has turned out to be true.
I,like most others I assume, was not privy to your correspondence with ghostfist of six months ago and so did not know that the mafell users forum was banned or that  you had a system already in place(word filter) to suppress mention or knowledge of the mafell users forum. I do not think linking to a forum(instigated and ran by  unpaid enthusiasts)in a section titled 'other tools' equates with linking to a competiters website, people on the mafell forum are,(just as in this forum), interested in elite powertools,no one is being paid or has self interest in "promoting" mafell. most mafell enthusiasts are also festool enthusiasts(this includes myself), and it would be a pity if free speech about all elite tools could not be aired on this forum. banning or suppressing knowledge is surely not the best way forward,especially in a forum based in the country that does the most on the world stage to promote freedom.

[Festool USA]

Some members may not agree with my decision to lock the thread. If that's the case, my apologies. I took personal responsibility in my previous post and said that I should have done a better job monitoring the thread and issuing warnings. I concur that members were not proactively made aware of the word filter addition, but it's not forum policy to publish a list of filtered words or links.

For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.

I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.

The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.

I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.

Shane

[greg mann]

Nothing else needs to be said, Shane. You, and Festool, have given great latitude for open discussion of competitive products. I don't believe anyone should expect you to run the forum in a way that is counter to your own best interest. None of us who run businesses would do any different.

[skinee]

Some members may not agree with my decision to lock the thread. If that's the case, my apologies. I took personal responsibility in my previous post and said that I should have done a better job monitoring the thread and issuing warnings. I concur that members were not proactively made aware of the word filter addition, but it's not forum policy to publish a list of filtered words or links.

For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.

I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.

The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.

I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.

Shane

it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big  difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved.  in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.

[jimbo51]

It seems to me that you are saying that prohibiting links to sites associated with competitor tools is the same as banning any discussion of other tools. I believe that you are stretching a point beyond what is reasonable. There are numerous of posts here about the advantages of other tools. I see no reason why Festool should be required to allow links to those other sites which essentially promote competitive tools, even if they are not company sites.

[Peter Halle]

Some members may not agree with my decision to lock the thread. If that's the case, my apologies. I took personal responsibility in my previous post and said that I should have done a better job monitoring the thread and issuing warnings. I concur that members were not proactively made aware of the word filter addition, but it's not forum policy to publish a list of filtered words or links.

For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.

I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.

The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.

I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.

Shane

it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big  difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved.  in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.

Personally I think you are going overboard on this.  Discussion about tools from other manufacturers have always been acceptable. Even then there are limits.

Anyone who has ever set up a blog or even a Facebook page has to deal with limits or acceptable posting and the perceived "freedom of speech". If you set up a website / blog regarding something that you made, would you allow your competitors or others to post links to either their products or to websites on it?  I don't think so.  This situation was discussed in private months ago with the administrator and the current situation ended up morphing into something different.

It happens.

Peter

[Frank Pellow]

Some members may not agree with my decision to lock the thread. If that's the case, my apologies. I took personal responsibility in my previous post and said that I should have done a better job monitoring the thread and issuing warnings. I concur that members were not proactively made aware of the word filter addition, but it's not forum policy to publish a list of filtered words or links.

For what it's worth, I've gotten several PMs stating that members were surprised that I let the thread go as long as it did. And, both moderators were in favor of locking the thread.

I doubt any other company run forum would allow that thread to have existed at all. So, your idea of freedom of speech may be idealistic. I suspect if you are a businessman, you would not allow the clients of your competitors to post links to your competitors' websites on your website.

The members participating in that thread, or reading this one, are now aware that there's another forum that exists if they want to share their enthusiasm for Mafell. I hope that's not taken as snide, but as sincere. The FOG is a place for talking about Festool power tools, general tool use and other related topics, not a place for enthusiasts of other brands to endorse competitive products and websites. I do think I let the thread progress far enough that it can be used as a resource for anyone considering the pros and cons of the Mafell.

I think I've clearly stated the reasons for the locked thread and hopefully offered answers to the questions asked. I'm not sure that I have anything else to add.

Shane

it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big  difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved.  in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.

That's not what Shane said.

I have often discussed tools made by other manufacturers here in this forum and have even said that I preferred some of those tools to Festool tools or some aspects of those tools to aspects of Festool tools.  No one in Festool has ever censored or even complained about any of these things that I have written.

[woodie]

I'm not sure I follow the logic... there are several threads, two of which are currently in the "recent post" section, that link to external sites for competetive product. A few of these links even go to e-commerce sights where you can buy the competitors product. How is this consistent with the statements above? I'm not trying to berate Festool or Shane here I was just trying to understand what is or isn't allowed. Reading between the lines, I have my answer.

[Slappy]

not to kick the hornets nest again or anything,
 but really this a privately owned forum & there is no right to freedom of speech,
 everyone agreed to the terms of service to register & post
It's the forum owners or their employees that set how the forum operates & set the guidelines .
they can adjust those rules ,guidelines, policies at anytime they feel the need to do so. 
 The mods here are more than fair , lenient  , understanding .
I am on forums that are far more demanding that do not allow any links to the competition at all . 
 
 

[Richard/RMW]

not to kick the hornets nest again or anything,
 but really this a privately owned forum & there is no right to freedom of speech,
 everyone agreed to the terms of service to register & post
It's the forum owners or their employees that set how the forum operates & set the guidelines .
they can adjust those rules ,guidelines, policies at anytime they feel the need to do so. 
 The mods here are more than fair , lenient  , understanding .
I am on forums that are far more demanding that do not allow any links to the competition at all .

Totally agree. I myself ran afoul of the forum guidelines and Shane dealt with the infraction in a fair and even handed manner. The FOG is a great resource, provided by FestoolUSA at some expense, and it is ultimately an investment in their business.

RMW

[Alex]

I am generally against any form of censorship, but given the rules of proper entrepreneurism in this case I agree with Shane's decision. Everybody knows there's ample space on this forum to talk about competitor's tools, but sometimes it just goes too far and I can see how this was one of those times. The entire thread turned into nothing more than one giant infomercial for a competitor's product, and that would simply hurt Festool's commercial interests.

I am often surprised at how much room is given here on the FOG to discuss Mafell products. 

[Festoolfootstool]

I am generally against any form of censorship, but given the rules of proper entrepreneurism in this case I agree with Shane's decision. Everybody knows there's ample space on this forum to talk about competitor's tools, but sometimes it just goes too far and I can see how this was one of those times. The entire thread turned into nothing more than one giant infomercial for a competitor's product, and that would simply hurt Festool's commercial interests.

I am often surprised at how much room is given here on the FOG to discuss Mafell products. 

Alex I formed the same opinion as you about that thread and I guess if Shane had not been distracted it may have not been allowed to rumble on quite as long

as it has.

[Reiska]

I just find this sad since clearly Mafell as a tool make either due to building similar quality tools and/or having that irritating dealer in Holland who tried to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt (FUD) about the Carvex or a combination of the above has gained the ire of Festool USA and by extension Shane & the mods here.

Its just very lopsided that any mention of Mafell tools are nowadays hushed whereas similar tools and discussions about Bosch, Makita, etc. tools are still universally accepted.

I just find this very two-faced of FOG to try to silence talk about similar or possibly even more advanced tool makes in the segments they operate them selves while at the same time letting discussion of 'lesser tools' tools to flourish as long as they get worse reviews than Festools. Makes me wonder how much of their marketing power is leaning on Shane at the moment and stifling free speech of their own customers and comparisons between real options to their products.

What makes this position especially hard to understand is that if I understand correctly Mafell doesn't have a proper dealership chain nor support in NA (nor in most countries outside Germany as far as I understand) so its a fringe make to serious business users anyway?

I fully support the locking and deletition of the clearly malicious thread by that Sander fellow, but to my understanding this thread posted and closed was by a long time FOG user that has no connections to Mafell other than buying his tool with money and being impressed by it.

Thankfully there still exists other forums like talkfestool that to my knowledge are not funded or run by a tool company and maybe discussions like this should be moved there?

[SittingElf]

it would seem then that the 'other tools' section of this forum is superfluous if no discussion about other manufacturers tools are to be permitted. I still believe there is a big  difference in linking to an unpaid enthusiasts forum and linking to a competitors website/forum or competitor retailer especially when there is no self interest involved.  in my opinion suppression of this type will leave a bad taste in the mouths of many here and cause them to seek other forums were all views can be heard.

My own impression since joining FOG is that the "other tools and accessories" section was probably originally created to have a place to discuss tools, supplies, and accessories that Festool DOESN'T offer.  Table saws, bandsaws, jointers, planers, clamps, jigs, air tools, compressors, glues, lathes, paints, finishing products and other items that together with the Festool items can enhance production and woodworking in general.  Certainly there would be some things for which comparing apples to apples might be appropriate.. (ie the Carvex vs the others topic), but I am in full support of FOG for barring posts that clearly represent another product as superior, AND actively promote their purchase over the Festool model. That is the purpose for a forum run by either the competing company, or fans of their products. FOG is not the venue for those promotions in my opinion.

That all being said, there is simply no question that Ryobi products are so superior to Festool's that it is amazing that people buy the green stuff at all! All the comparison tests agree. And Harbor Freight tools are a close second in quality, performance, fit and finish. Can't be denied!

Sincerely,

[Alex]

Its just very lopsided that any mention of Mafell tools are nowadays hushed whereas similar tools and discussions about Bosch, Makita, etc. tools are still universally accepted.

I disagree, the Mafell thread dominated FOG's "recent posts" listing for the last 2 weeks so there's nothing being hushed.

I've noticed the last 6 months that the Mafell subject comes up abundantly more than any other tool brand in comparison, so no, there's nothing "universally" about it. It has come to the point that SittingElf words quite nicely:

posts that clearly represent another product as superior, AND actively promote their purchase over the Festool model. That is the purpose for a forum run by either the competing company, or fans of their products. FOG is not the venue for those promotions in my opinion.

It would be very bad business practice of a company to let that go on forever.

[TBR]

At first the locking of that thread did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have been enjoying the forums a lot since I joined just a few weeks ago and at first glance It came off as being over defensive and unreasonable.

Now that I have read this thread I can see why it was necessary.

At first I was thinking surely only posts that were against the guidelines should have been edited. Now I see that there was no moderation for a period of time. this explains the situation. Perhaps this should be said in that closing post to clarify why it was locked, otherwise others might get the wrong impression too.

The bit about not starting another thread was the thing that I really didn't like. It comes across to a newcomer as not wanting to ever favourably mention the competition. The regulars might know this to not be the case but for people who aren't familiar with the forum, it could be damaging for Festool's community and brand image.

[Untidy Shop]

I have had a post removed in the past so I understand the shock and surprise for some members at the Mafell thread being locked.

However, I was amaized that the thread went on for so long as it became obvious, even from the title, that those with a Mafell 'interest' used an opportunity during the 55 'recall'. It may have started innocently but soon changed.

In a recent post I sought advice on how to connect a non Festool sander to a Festool Vac. I use this as an example of how the Other Tools section can be used. If I had said that this sander was superior to its Festool equivalent, which it is not, that would have been inappropriate. At other times, members including me, have stated that they use a certain non-Festool tool, not for example, because it is necessarily superior but for the amount of use the additional cost is not justified. Again in this type of post in most cases the Festool product is not being 'bagged'.

[Festool USA]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

[Paul G]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

Shane, that answers my question and clears up my confusion, thanks.

[RKA]

At first the locking of that thread did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I have been enjoying the forums a lot since I joined just a few weeks ago and at first glance It came off as being over defensive and unreasonable.

Now that I have read this thread I can see why it was necessary.

At first I was thinking surely only posts that were against the guidelines should have been edited. Now I see that there was no moderation for a period of time. this explains the situation. Perhaps this should be said in that closing post to clarify why it was locked, otherwise others might get the wrong impression too.

The bit about not starting another thread was the thing that I really didn't like. It comes across to a newcomer as not wanting to ever favourably mention the competition. The regulars might know this to not be the case but for people who aren't familiar with the forum, it could be damaging for Festool's community and brand image.

Tim,
Thank you for saying that.  That's exactly how it came across to this newb.  Shane has adequately explained and it makes perfect sense to me now (not being aware of the backstory until I read this).  So thanks to you too Shane!

It's a shame that others in this thread perceive discussions about competing products as something subversive.  I would ask you to give people the benefit of the doubt.  I participated in that thread, it was helpful to me, but in all likelihood, I won't bring up that product again because of the comments made here.  Take a minute to consider the impression your comments may have left with me (and others). 
Raj

[Sparktrician]

I appreciate the feedback on my post in the thread about locking it.

While I try to do my best to use the correct language to convey my thoughts, sometimes it does not come across the way intended. When I asked that a new thread not be started, what I meant was a continuation of the same conversation, essentially sidestepping the lock. I have edited my post according, striking out the original text for everyone to see what was originally there.

I do the best I can to make the forum a great resource and a friendly place. Sometimes there are tough decisions that I have to make. Remember that I'm just human and a guy trying to do his job. Trust me, there are days when it's not fun to be the forum administrator. I do my best to strike a good balance here and I hope that's seen by the majority.

Shane

I've got to give you credit for your even-handedness at running the FOG, Shane.  I ran several Federal Government BBSs ~20 years ago, so I appreciate the balance that you have to maintain. 

[Kevin D.]

I've come to see forums as somebody's house.  They invite you in, and the company they keep and what they allow determines whether you want to stay, or the host themselves ask you to leave.  It's that simple!


While I do think myself that the Mafell thread went on far too long, nobody's perfect!  Including the outstanding staff of this forum, who imo make this forum one of the best at managing it's 'houseguests' in the woodworking internet world. 

Keep in mind, this 'house' is owned by the tool manufacturer.  Step in their shoes for two minutes and think about what you would allow if you were them.  They're more than generous imo!