Author Topic: Painting KD cabinets  (Read 1897 times)

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Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Painting KD cabinets
« on: November 04, 2021, 10:30 AM »
I am considering buying either a Domino or a Lamello system so that I can produce cabinets that can be transported as flat packs.  I am leaning towards the Lamello, as it seems both faster to use and less visible on the finished product. 

My main concern is painting cabinets.  I shoot HVLP, and mostly Benjamin Moore's Advance (water-based paint). 

I want to paint in my shop, not at the site.  If I paint the cabinets after assembly and then take it apart there will be some obvious signs that it was taken apart after finishing.

If I paint the panels before assembly, I worry that the paint will add to the dimensions of the panels making the joints look sloppy.  It will interfere with glue-ups, and it will gum up the Lamello fasteners.



Any suggestions would be appreciated. 

Note:  I am mostly a "dowel" guy.  This will be a major deviation from my assembly system if I go forward with it.  I work alone and carrying assembled cabinets from my basement has become a chore as I have grown older.

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Offline GregorHochschild

  • Posts: 29
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2021, 10:56 AM »
I can't really comment on the painting question although I do recall other people saying that they spray before assembly with the connectors in place. There is a very active Lamello group on facebook "Lamello Talk Group" mainly with pros. I am sure your question was discussed before over there.

On the Domino versus Lamello question: Get a Zeta P2. Far better for KD cabinets and so many other applications.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2021, 11:01 AM »
I've been reading on this and the Lamello was designed from the beginning for KD work.  The Domino was a retro-fit or perhaps an adaption after the fact.  But the Lamello seems like a more integrated solution. 

I will look for the Lamello forums.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2021, 04:21 PM »
@Packard, dont you already own a ddf40?

As far as the painting you would need to paint unassembled.  Try to pull a cab. apart after painting would be a nightmare.  Especially with latex.  I see the latex as an issue painting unassembled too.  Latex is thick and could gum up the works.  One option would be to have some dummy lamello connectors just for filling the slot while painting then swap out the painted ones for new ones once your done spraying. 

I have looked at all kinds of KD fasteners and a combination of dowels and confirmat screws are still the best option for me.  While a confirmat screw might not be considered a KD fastener by some.  I predrill everything for dowels (blind holes) and then a couple through holes for each panel for a confirmat screw.  Once on site its easy to just drop some glue in the dowel holes assemble and run a confirmat screws through the holes.  Only time it an issue is if there isn't a finished end panel to hide the screws. then there are a few other options. Really the screw is just there to clamp everything till the glue sets up. 

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2021, 04:55 PM »
Confirmats, which I have used for a long time, are designed to be removed and replaced several times.  But they are not blind fasteners.   I've used them on face frame cabinets where I will put an end panel on to hide the fasteners, but I am transitioning to Euro cabinets and the confirmats would not be suitable.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2021, 05:22 PM »
Confirmats, which I have used for a long time, are designed to be removed and replaced several times.  But they are not blind fasteners.   I've used them on face frame cabinets where I will put an end panel on to hide the fasteners, but I am transitioning to Euro cabinets and the confirmats would not be suitable.

Yes, I know all this, pretty much what I just said. 

Euro cabs. use applied/finished end panels a lot, which hides the screw.  Also waterfall countertops are very common too which hides the screw head.  Either way there are some KD fastners available for the ddf40. Good luck. 

Offline Ocfishingguy

  • Posts: 12
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2021, 09:14 PM »
Have & used both. Lamello is clear winner.

DM you'd with photos & videos.



Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk


Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2021, 08:23 AM »
Just watching the videos of both the Lamello and the Domino, it was clear to me that the Lamello was the efficiency winner.  It also had that tiny access hole that was in a far less conspicuous location.

Offline Peter Kelly

  • Posts: 61
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2021, 09:06 AM »
Finish all of the panels prior to drilling, grooving, adding Clamex, etc. I've always struggled with trying to spray the interior of a box with overspray bouncing around inside, painting everything laid out flat is much easier.


Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2021, 09:18 AM »
I've used plywood prefinished on one side (clear--to be the interior).  I would probably use that again if I go the Lamello route. 

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2021, 09:29 AM »
Have & used both. Lamello is clear winner.

DM you'd with photos & videos.



Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

I don't have a DD40.  I have Joint Genie (very good, and fairly production-friendly), and a CMT jig which is designed specifically for 18mm to 20mm (or 3/4") sheet goods.  The CMT jig is less versatile, but probably as efficient as a Domino. 


Joint Genie (imported from England, though Amazon.com used to sell them).


And a CTM dowel jig (Imported from Germany via Amazon.de.  The video is of a IGM-branded CTM jig.  IGM has better videos than CTM.)

Note:  I can't seem to link the video directly.  If you are interested in seeing the video, scroll down and click "videos".

https://www.igmtools.com/igm-fkp656-boring-jig-set-656-mm-euro-32-mm--free-100pcs-dowels/?tab=6

« Last Edit: November 05, 2021, 09:34 AM by Packard »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2021, 12:28 PM »
That is an interesting contraption... Are you in the US ? because thats new to me if so.  I just assumed you already owned a DDF40 since you seem to be such a fan of dowels based on other posts.  There is a KD fitting "ovvo" that looks interesting (I havent used it yet) but it works with 32mm hole layout on one side and a proprietary snap connector on the other.  There is also a connector from Hafele IXconnect 8/60 which I have used and fits in a 8mm dowel hole. Its nice since it doesnt need any fancy tool to install just an 8mm drill bit.  Its not going to be as strong as a clamex or festool connector but its one of those bulletproof vs. plenty strong enough situations.  It also only requires a very small hole to tighten the connector too. For just the occasional one off situation where you cant hide the screw head it works well.  Would I build a freestanding bookcase with them...NO 

As far as finishing are you painting the entire cabinet?  Thats a ton of work... very few euro cabs here are painted, most have laminate interior.  Unless its some type of display cabinet.  Even then its a laminate of some type a lot. I would look into "cabinet liner" which is plywood with laminate on one or both sides. Usually comes in white, grey and black.  Cut it, edgeband it, and done. Or pre-finshed plywood if you want wood interior. I prefer the laminate, Its a much more durable interior finish then paint but everyone is different.  Then you only need to finish the door and drawer fronts.  I would also recommend a better more durable finish then Latex but I know some people are under stricter environmental protections so Im not sure if thats the reason for Latex. Even just a pre-cat Lacquer would be a big step up from the latex.  Finishing is the hardest part especially if you are working in home based shop. That latex takes forever to dry and stacking flipping all those parts gets very tricky in tight quarters.  I try to eliminate as much spraying as possible.  If I do its just doors and drawer fronts with 2x urethane. 

The lamello is a great tool buuut, it kind of falls into a strange territory for me.  On one hand the cost for the machine is to high for something to use just occasionally but on the other hand the consumable cost is to high to use all the time.  So thats my issue with it.  If you have some cash to spend and dont mind the cost of the connectors then its nice tool.  If your building for profit though those connectors will start eating up profit pretty fast if its your primary connector.     

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2021, 12:42 PM »
I am in the USA.  The CTM dowel jig has lived up to my expectations, though there was something of a learning curve.  It is fast to use and if you are making base cabinets where you will be adding dominoes to the center of the panel also, it may very well be faster than a domino.  It does not require any marking. 

I got mine from Amazon.de (Germany) and the shipping was reasonable.  But Amazon.de, like the USA counterpart, has third-party sellers and the freight cost from those are rather extravagant. 

It does not center the holes on the material for all thicknesses, so orienting the jig is important (and confusing in the beginning).

But less expensive than a Domino--I think I spent less than $400.00 for everything.  And it uses 8mm dowels, but CMT also sells 0.375" bits for that holder.

I bought a 14mm bushing form my router along with an 8mm bit, so I can use my router for this if needed.  The electric drill is easier though.

Dowel alignment has been 100%.  But IGM's instructions online are better than CTM's.

I did try to buy from IGM, but they were unable to process the USA credit cards.  I could have wired them money, but I was able to get everything from Amazon.de.

IGM is a major distributor in Europe.


Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2021, 01:08 PM »
For my purposes it appears that the Lamello would suit me better than the Domino.

There are a few varieties of the Lamello ranging from $1,550.00 to 1,650.00.  It appears that the cutter material (carbide vs. diamond) is the major difference. 

Any recommendations?

Also, there seems to be no one out there discounting the cutter or the supplies.  So quality of service would then be the deciding factor. 

Is there any vendor that stands out?

I am curious, Blum makes a fitting too.  I assume that there is some jig required to use that piece.  And the hardware is no bargain either.  But does anyone have any experience with that?






Online squall_line

  • Posts: 1031
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2021, 05:31 PM »
When I was looking at the P2, I found the same as you: two prices total, depending on which cutter you get.

There are some good resources out there that describe the benefits or detriments of the carbide vs diamond cutter; I believe the diamond was recommended if the main stock was going to be something harsh like laminated particle board.  Each one is rated for a certain number of cuts, and, like you said, there aren't really any generic replacements.

There are a bunch of different ways to get fittings, similar to the Festool KS fittings: by the piece or in variety bundles with a systainer.  I have the Sys-II-packaged bundle and I want to get the bundle with the Sys-Sort, but I would really want to know that I had enough projects to use up everything in the set just to get a fancy red and gray Systainer.

Offline Bernmc

  • Posts: 88
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2021, 04:08 AM »
Peter Millard on youtube does a lot of cabinet work, and possibly similar requirements to you - flatpack and assemble on site. He's done a few videos looking at the Lamello (not as simple or impressive as he expected, and took a fair amount of tweaking to get it set up right). He wasn't a fan of the domino connectors. I think he really likes the peanut connectors.

http://www.youtube.com/c/PeterMillard

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2021, 08:54 AM »
I've watched all the related videos on Dominoes and Lamellos.  I watched two of Millard's videos on the subject.  One compared the two.   One was on the Lamello.  And he did like the Lamello better. 

It was a fairly convincing argument in favor or the Lamello. 

He does mostly cabinetwork and that is basically what I do also.  So his remarks rang true to me. 

I would note that I read a magazine (European) on woodworking and cabinet making.  And one builder used every imaginable joinery fastener for one piece of furniture.  Each was chosen because it best suited the situation.

I tend to use just one joinery method.  I will rethink that now. 

For years I just cut dadoes and used glue.  No fasteners at all. 

Lately, I have been using dowels.  I have a very efficient dowel jig that makes strong boxes easily and quickly.  But carrying the assembled and painted cabinets up from the basement is a two-man job, and I work alone. 

The Lamello seems ideal.  Or even a hybrid Lamello + dowels.  That would yield a very strong glue-up and efficient clamping. 

Right now I am trying to decide on a Lamello vendor.  The prices are all the same no matter where I look.  So it boils down to which vendors to avoid and which give good service.



Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2021, 09:17 AM »
This is the connector I mentioned.  Its not perfect since it needs 45mm drill depth in one direction and the DDF40 has a max of 40mm but its not a big deal to send a 8mm drill bit down a couple holes for an extra 5mm.  I use them in combo with dowels and these are there just to clamp it up while the glue on the dowels dry.  So im not to concerned with strength testing of the actual fastener but they do a pretty good job and it fits into the process I already use no extra fancy tools or jigs.  Plus they are only about 50 cents each so the price point is nice.  I will also mention you dont have to have a 6mm hole for Allen wrench.  If memory serves I think you can get away with a 3 or 4mm hole. 




Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2021, 09:38 AM »
I ordered the drilling fixture and some connectors. 

This seems ideal.  I am already using 8mm dowels.  I have only to convert one, two, or three of the holes to use with the connector.  My dowel fixture allows drilling on 32mm centers along the length of the joint.  I only have to make the holes a little deeper and drill the cross hole. 

Cheap enough to test out. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 10:20 AM by Packard »

Online squall_line

  • Posts: 1031
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2021, 09:59 AM »
I can't find LXConnect on the Internet.  Can you provide a link?

https://www.hafele.com/us/en/product/spreading-connector-haefele-ixconnect-sc-8-60/0000009d0002bb1600170023/?PageSize=48#SearchParameter=&Category=tkYKAOsFfRQAAAFdenZO6HHz&@P.FF.followSearch=10000&PageNumber=4&OriginalPageSize=12&PageSize=48&Position=166&OrigPos=2898&ProductListSize=295

They also have an SC 8/25, which appears to be two inter-connecting self-spreading dowels.

https://www.hafele.com/INTERSHOP/web/WFS/Haefele-HAC-Site/en_US/-/USD/Static-View/pdfcatalog/en_US/TCH_Furniture_Cabinetry_Hardware_2022/index.html?startpage=11.33#page_11.33

Haefele appears to be a distributor of all manner of KD fittings; take your spelunking helmet!

Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2021, 11:59 AM »
I ordered the drilling fixture and some connectors. 

This seems ideal.  I am already using 8mm dowels.  I have only to convert one, two, or three of the holes to use with the connector.  My dowel fixture allows drilling on 32mm centers along the length of the joint.  I only have to make the holes a little deeper and drill the cross hole. 

Cheap enough to test out.

I like the 8/60 units they work very well, would a clamex pull the joint tighter...yes However the IXconnect does do a good job pulling the joint tight.  Its not going to be a fix for bad joinery.  I will say the shorter ones I think they are 8/25's DO NOT work well at all in my opinion.  they will never allow the joint to fully close.  There is always a 32-64 gap.  I have tried everything clamping, chamfering the hole.  It might not be bad on some dark wood or black laminate but most of my stuff is white so the gap is pretty noticeable.  I was going to try and use them for KD drawers but I didnt like them.  JUst FYI

And yes 2 or 3 should work. if your gizmo does 32 mm then what I do is one dowel and one IX connect.  I do mine with a DDF40 but shouldnt matter as long as its 8mm holes.  As I mentioned the DDF40 only goes 40 mm deep so you have to chase whichever hole you want for the IX connect.  I think you will like them.  Especially if you do dowels already.   
« Last Edit: November 09, 2021, 12:07 PM by afish »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 736
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2021, 12:17 PM »
I can't find LXConnect on the Internet.  Can you provide a link?

Haefele appears to be a distributor of all manner of KD fittings; take your spelunking helmet!

THe Hafele catalog is full of goodies.  Not just KD fittings

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 851
Re: Painting KD cabinets
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2021, 12:30 PM »
I ordered the drilling fixture and some connectors. 

This seems ideal.  I am already using 8mm dowels.  I have only to convert one, two, or three of the holes to use with the connector.  My dowel fixture allows drilling on 32mm centers along the length of the joint.  I only have to make the holes a little deeper and drill the cross hole. 

Cheap enough to test out.

I like the 8/60 units they work very well, would a clamex pull the joint tighter...yes However the IXconnect does do a good job pulling the joint tight.  Its not going to be a fix for bad joinery.  I will say the shorter ones I think they are 8/25's DO NOT work well at all in my opinion.  they will never allow the joint to fully close.  There is always a 32-64 gap.  I have tried everything clamping, chamfering the hole.  It might not be bad on some dark wood or black laminate but most of my stuff is white so the gap is pretty noticeable.  I was going to try and use them for KD drawers but I didnt like them.  JUst FYI

And yes 2 or 3 should work. if your gizmo does 32 mm then what I do is one dowel and one IX connect.  I do mine with a DDF40 but shouldnt matter as long as its 8mm holes.  As I mentioned the DDF40 only goes 40 mm deep so you have to chase whichever hole you want for the IX connect.  I think you will like them.  Especially if you do dowels already.

The CMT dowel fixture allows me to use as many dowels as I please and I vary it according to what I imagine the strength requirement is. 

I am guessing that a 12" wide box would need two clamping connectors, so there is plenty of room for the dowels.

CMT dowel jig: