Author Topic: kerosene odors  (Read 2145 times)

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Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
kerosene odors
« on: January 14, 2021, 08:45 PM »
Like many folks, my shop is in the basement.  This afternoon I was doing some sanding and wiped off the piece with odorless mineral spirits.  They are pretty good 'odorless' spirits - I really don't smell much from them.

What I noticed is that later on when the oven was on, I could smell a strong Kerosene odor when I came upstairs.   From what I've seen, this isn't an uncommon thing.  Apparently something in the air gets cooked by the flame and it smells this way.

My question: is this something to be concerned about?   Should I be concerned that I'm doing some damage to myself and others?  Does this indicate some particularly high level of something nasty in the air that should really be avoided?

Thanks,
Adam

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Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 109
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 10:54 PM »
If your wife smells it, just tell her you cannot smell anything, then act shocked and ask if losing smell is a sign of Covid.  Maybe she will take pity on you.  Maybe not. 

I never got a doctor to recommend this, but years ago on the farm we used to pour kerosene on bad cuts. It clots the blood like water and oil, and the cut does not get sore.  I was just wondering if anyone else did this?  I remember my grandfather telling me they used urine on wounds when he was in the trenches in WWI, so figure kerosene is not as bad as that. 

Think of that when you smell the kerosene. 

Offline Charles959

  • Posts: 37
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 11:57 PM »
From https://www.hindawi.com/journals/crim/2010/850394/ :

Nowadays, it is obvious that Kerosene chemical-based components are toxic materials for the human body. These materials were found to cause significant direct and indirect dangerous effects on health through inhalation, ingestion, injection, or local dermal contacts [3–5]. These negative effects may lead to losing the functions of organs of body or lead to long-term disabilities. Although training and increasing of public awareness about these side effects may prevent self-therapy of Kerosene, early diagnosis of these side effects can help in the results of care. We report a rare case with local and systemic absorbent of Kerosene through hemorrhoidal injection which developed different injuries to the soft-tissue organs and the nervous system.

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2021, 05:46 AM »
Try to limit the use of kerosene/mineral spirits/(...) in your basement workshop to an absolute minimum. And get the rags outdoors for drying/airing out.

Having a basement workshop myself, I've made the "mistake" once or twice to keep a rag drying/airing out in close proximity and at some point I started to "feel" it. It happens. But I really try to avoid it - that is also partly why I brought the steel door outdoors since I knew I had to wipe it. If I had done that in the basement, that would have done nothing good.

And depending on application, try to get stuff that is less harmful. For example, I use the Snap-On hand & tool cleaning rags extensively in my workshop, were I would have used other (potentially harmful) solvents prior. Rags like these are available from many different brands, and should be more or less the same. Although, I don't recommend these for cleaning wood after sanding, no idea how wood would react to this ... It's more a general recommendation for hands, tools, metal, (...).

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2021, 07:17 AM »
Not sure what you mean by odor-less specifically, but I would consider that even more dangerous. If you cannot smell it, you will not know it is killing you. Silent toxic stuff is the worst. That is why they artificially add odor to natural gas etc.

The problem is not that you can smell stuff. The real problem is when you cannot smell it but you are breathing it still!

Since getting a bit adulty (do not ask), I have a policy of using acetone as much as possible for any cleaning. It is mostly harmless or at least the least harmful from the generally available solvents.

And when I need to paint something with solvent-based stuff, always do it at the end of the day or, better, before weekend and leave ventilation/windows running/opened. Even in winter.

I never ever work/live/sleep in such a place.
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Online Bob D.

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Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 08:09 AM »
While generally accepted as safe, Acetone does deserve some respect use and handling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone#Safety

Decades ago when OSHA was still in it's infancy and TLVs had not yet been established by NIOSH for most chemicals I worked on safety-related SS piping systems as part of nuclear power plant construction. This was heavy wall 316L SS pipe and 100% X-ray on all the weld joints and multiple inspections throughout pipe prep, fit-up, and weld out, flat top weld for the shot, then X-ray.

We used Acetone to clean everything before welding. The TIG wire, the pipe joints just before welding and during prep, the EB rings, everything. Acetone was considered safe (not counting the flammability risk) so we didn't wear gloves and none were provided even if we wanted them. I would soak a clean cotton rag in Acetone until it was dripping and wash the pipe and the TIG wire all the time. By the end of the day my hands would be white because the Acetone had drawn all the fat out of my skin. We worked in cramped quarters with low ventilation and practically bathed in the stuff every day for a couple years. I grabbed a quart safety can of Acetone from the flammable locker every morning on my way to our worksite, and it was close to empty by the end of our shift.

For the past 20+ years every Winter my hands get dry and cracked. No doubt it's in part age related but it's been going on too long to be just from age. If I try to work outside in the cold it is even worse. My hands (mostly the palms) no longer produce any fat. I found out too late that Acetone can damage your skin, and is used medically as a defatting agent. I can tell you it works very well. Back then we used it to wash our hands before lunch or during the day if we got crud all over our hands. Chronic exposure is what did me in.

Don't let it happen to you. Just wear some gloves when using Acetone so you don't get it on your hands and work in a well ventilated area. Acetone has a fairly wide flash point range from ~2.5% to 12.8%.
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 09:26 AM »
While generally accepted as safe, Acetone does deserve some respect use and handling.
...
Issue with assumptions!

I should have prefaced that with "from the usual non-polar/organic solvents".. I prefer it over kerosene, benzene, toluene etc. as the "least crappy from the crappy".

You are absolutely right in "use with caution" here.

When using a few drops here and there to clean some fatty residue from a tool ... gloves would be an unneeded overkill as the ingestion exposure is the biggest issue there.

But washing whole hands in acetone, oh-my-holy! Absolutely agree that is NOT a good idea.
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Offline six-point socket II

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Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 11:47 AM »
@Bob D. I feel for you, and I know exactly how your hands feel. For me it's a result of my diabetes and right now incredibly worsened through the daily application of hand sanitizer/disinfectant and corresponding soaps ... I could use my hands instead of sandpaper ... Need to cream them every night before going to bed to keep it bearable ...

And yes, Acetone is the #1 "fat killer" - Henkel produces wipes they sell with some of their adhesives for preparation of the areas that are to be glued together ... Nasty stuff. The wipes and the adhesive ... lol.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: January 16, 2021, 02:51 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7227
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 12:05 PM »
Trust your nose. It's the chemical detector nature made for you and it is very sensitive. If something smells bad, that generally means it is bad for you.

But that means the material itself is bad for you, when you touch it or digest it. It does not necessarily mean the odor is bad for you, unless the concentration in the air is extremely high. Because your nose is so sensitive, you can detect the smallest concentrations in the air and warn you before you get closer.

If you just smell a damp rag those odors are not bad for you, just like smelling a nice steak will not fill your stomach.

Online DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1243
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 12:29 PM »
... just like smelling a nice steak will not fill your stomach.

Sniff harder.

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2021, 01:16 AM »
We report a rare case with local and systemic absorbent of Kerosene through hemorrhoidal injection which developed different injuries to the soft-tissue organs and the nervous system.

 [eek]

Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2021, 01:24 AM »
Try to limit the use of kerosene/mineral spirits/(...) in your basement workshop to an absolute minimum. And get the rags outdoors for drying/airing out.

Having a basement workshop myself, I've made the "mistake" once or twice to keep a rag drying/airing out in close proximity and at some point I started to "feel" it. It happens. But I really try to avoid it - that is also partly why I brought the steel door outdoors since I knew I had to wipe it. If I had done that in the basement, that would have done nothing good.

And depending on application, try to get stuff that is less harmful. For example, I use the Snap-On hand & tool cleaning rags extensively in my workshop, were I would have used other (potentially harmful) solvents prior. Rags like these are available from many different brands, and should be more or less the same. Although, I don't recommend these for cleaning wood after sanding, no idea how wood would react to this ... It's more a general recommendation for hands, tools, metal, (...).

Kind regards,
Oliver

I agree - I prefer to use less harmful stuff when possible, and I wear a mask when I am applying solvent based finishes - or at least finishes based on petroleum products.

I can't say I've really 'felt it' with mineral spirits or naptha.   I am usually pretty conservative with these substances.  The only time I've ever felt at all odd from a finish was when I decided to prime a closet with BIN, which is a pigmented shellac.


Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2021, 01:31 AM »
Not sure what you mean by odor-less specifically, but I would consider that even more dangerous. If you cannot smell it, you will not know it is killing you. Silent toxic stuff is the worst. That is why they artificially add odor to natural gas etc.

The problem is not that you can smell stuff. The real problem is when you cannot smell it but you are breathing it still!

Since getting a bit adulty (do not ask), I have a policy of using acetone as much as possible for any cleaning. It is mostly harmless or at least the least harmful from the generally available solvents.

And when I need to paint something with solvent-based stuff, always do it at the end of the day or, better, before weekend and leave ventilation/windows running/opened. Even in winter.

I never ever work/live/sleep in such a place.

I have read this about acetone before, however it is hard to imagine using something so potent to wipe off dust or wet a surface to check for defects.

I was under the impression that odorless mineral spirits were slightly less problematic than turpentine or non-odorless mineral spirits.


Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2021, 01:33 AM »
Trust your nose. It's the chemical detector nature made for you and it is very sensitive. If something smells bad, that generally means it is bad for you.

But that means the material itself is bad for you, when you touch it or digest it. It does not necessarily mean the odor is bad for you, unless the concentration in the air is extremely high. Because your nose is so sensitive, you can detect the smallest concentrations in the air and warn you before you get closer.

If you just smell a damp rag those odors are not bad for you, just like smelling a nice steak will not fill your stomach.

Wouldn't those odors be composed of particles which are being breathed in and resting on mucus membranes?


Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7227
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2021, 02:08 AM »
Wouldn't those odors be composed of particles which are being breathed in and resting on mucus membranes?

Yes, that would be the case. Point is, your nose can do that while the concentration is so small it has no effect on you as a whole.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2021, 05:39 PM »
Trust your nose. It's the chemical detector nature made for you and it is very sensitive. If something smells bad, that generally means it is bad for you.
...

Having a Chemistry background I cannot agree with this.

There are a LOT of very irritating chemicals which are otherwise harmless.

And there are even more of chemicals which are odorless but heavily toxic. Some to the point a single breath will mean your end. Specific toxicity sideways, anything odorless you better be sure it is not toxic at all - since you cannot smell it one get get a huge dose without realizing otherwise. Case in point from the simple ones - Carbon monoxide.

Acetone is great in this:
 - it has a very high irritation ratio, so one will not (voluntarily not to mention accidentally) breath a lot of it
 - it also has a very low toxicity (compared to the alternatives kerosene etc., not to mention junk like toluene neither of which are more irritating to acetone but are much more toxic)

Use Alcohol, Iso-propanol etc. for where it is enough for sure. But when stronger stuff is needed, do not be fooled by the odor.
There is a reason regulations allow/recommend acetone and not the other stuff for inhalation exposure.
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Offline Alex

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Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2021, 06:03 PM »
Trust your nose. It's the chemical detector nature made for you and it is very sensitive. If something smells bad, that generally means it is bad for you.
...

Having a Chemistry background I cannot agree with this.

There are a LOT of very irritating chemicals which are otherwise harmless.

Maybe also get a background in biology then. Or medicine.

Care to explain how IRRITATING is good for you?

Ok, you might not drop dead right away, but irritation is your body giving you a warning. That's not something you brush over.

And there are even more of chemicals which are odorless but heavily toxic. Some to the point a single breath will mean your end. Specific toxicity sideways, anything odorless you better be sure it is not toxic at all - since you cannot smell it one get get a huge dose without realizing otherwise. Case in point from the simple ones - Carbon monoxide.

Mostly chemicals which do not occur in a natural fashion, but are man made. Of course your sense of smell can not detect all of them, it evolved over millions of years. It is not like you just download an update for your nose just because mankind decided to invent chemistry. As a chemist, you must be aware of such chemicals. But in your day to day life you will not encounter them.

Case in point: carbon monoxide did not really exist in nature in meaningfull quantities until man decided to make heaters with imperfect burning.

Acetone is great in this:
 - it has a very high irritation ratio, so one will not (voluntarily not to mention accidentally) breath a lot of it
 - it also has a very low toxicity (compared to the alternatives kerosene etc., not to mention junk like toluene neither of which are more irritating to acetone but are much more toxic)

If it irritates you, it means there is a part of your body that does not like it.

As it goes, acetone is very low on the list of irritating chemicals. It does not have a very high irritation ratio. If you think it does, I guess you never drank terpentine by mistake, like I did.  [tongue] 

Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 109
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2021, 07:18 PM »
Ha!  I remember as a kid we had a dog with an injured leg and my dad put turpentine on the wound. I never saw a dog howl and run down the road so fast.  After that I made sure I went to Mom with any injuries, not to Dad. 

Offline mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2021, 05:33 PM »
Maybe also get a background in biology then. Or medicine.
...
The first thing one learns in any field where you handle raw chemicals in a lab is to not trust your smell. You do this before you even get foot in a (real) lab. This is not only Chemistry but Also Medicine and Biology.

Actually, over here one of the  first year exams for a Chemistry degree is Cellular Biology. To make sure the students understand the ways a chemical can affect living tissue. The material of that course is never used in further curricula, but gives the awareness one needs even if specializing in inorganics field later.

The second thing you learn - if keeping tabs - that a lot of the freely available/used home use or light-commercial use chemicals are actually pretty crappy and toxic. Mostly in the "it will kill you slowly" way.

Quote
Care to explain how IRRITATING is good for you?
It tells me in no unclear terms that the chemical I work with has reached a higher-than-nominal concentration, allowing me to take preventive actions to reduce the inhalation exposure before it is too late. All this reliably, intuitively and without any special equipment on hand needed or a need for training.

Quote
Ok, you might not drop dead right away, but irritation is your body giving you a warning. That's not something you brush over.
I think where we differ is I am discussing alternatives of:
A) it may (slowly) kill you but will not really bother your (or even know) it being around (see e.g. Toluene)
B) it may (slowly) kill you but is an irritant hence you will know about it and can adjust/reduce your exposure before it is too late (e.g. acetone, which is not toxic in quantities which are not irritating)

Hence my preference of acetone for use -especially- by non-chemists compared to the other organic solvents commonly in use which are more toxic but are also LESS irritating.

You are correct in a way too.
For a Chemistry major, knows his chemicals, has a measuring kit where required and who takes all the precautions either way, an irritating agent is an annoyance.

But there are only so many qualified Chemical (Biology, Medicine/Pharmacy..) majors out there.
Most of the people have to live with at best with a High-School chemistry knowledge.

I am old enough to know you will not recommend an MBA to "keep his exposure to a maximum of 10 minutes/day of breathing air with 1000 ppm of the compound in question." heck, I would not be stupid enough to tell that to a Chemistry major student!

No, I would simply forbid to use the compound except with a ventilated chamber simply because I will know it would not be realistic to expect the people to be able or want to /in case of a student/ abide by the maximum exposure rules themselves.

On the other hand,
 if the compound is know to be toxic in high concentrations BUT is an irritant already while in low concentrations known to be safe (think ammonia solution, or mentioned acetone) then I can safely let the people use it as the exposure is self-regulating.

In case of secondary risks, I may simply add an instruction to not wash hands in it.


And you are correct smell is an excellent detector if something is -affecting- your nose cells in the natural setting. Industrial solvents are no natural thing, though.

EDIT:
Quote
If it irritates you, it means there is a part of your body that does not like it.
My grandmother used to irritate me and I did not like it. Yet I miss her sorely.

The group of chemicals your body does not like and those which are toxic to it are two distinct groups. There is an overlap, but not a very big one actually.

Quote
As it goes, acetone is very low on the list of irritating chemicals.
The topic was about smell/odor, so meant irritating in that context.

Try breathing a concentrated acetone vapor ... then try the same with e.g. Toluene (orders of magnitude worse for your body).

Real story:
There were stupid kids in our yard who /in the absence of better drugs/ actually inhaled Toluene to get high. They would never manage to do that with Acetone ... But even if did, would have a bit more brain cells survive in them to adulthood.

below line:
If people wash their bare hands in /any/ non-natural chemical that is not a designated hand-wash agent that is a completely different level of stupidity. And almost criminal negligence of the people who instructed them that it is safe to do so...
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 05:50 PM by mino »
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Offline mrFinpgh

  • Posts: 444
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2021, 09:18 PM »
Thanks for the interesting feedback so far.

What I'm taking away from this is that I should be probably a bit more cautious using these products, even if they aren't particularly offending or affecting me.  Or at least, I would be well served to understand them a bit more.  I did read that odorless mineral spirits have been somewhat refined, so there are _less_ toxic compounds present.

In a basement setting, in the wintertime, what might this mean?   I do wear a vapor respirator when applying anything stronger than shellac or Osmo, and of course gloves.  However, I can't really be opening the door and blowing the fan. 

Usually, I will apply finish and leave for a few hours. For the project I'm working on now, I'm using Arm R Seal and while it has a strong odor after applying, I don't smell it once I go upstairs. By the time I come back down, I'm usually smelling a bit of an oil smell but nothing too wild.   Are the vapors from this product heavier than air?   And if so, what happens to them?  Does it flash off and become less problematic over time?

Sorry for the questions - the conversation has stimulated my creativity about all the way I might be poisoning myself and others .  :o

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2335
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2021, 03:00 PM »
Thanks for the interesting feedback so far.

What I'm taking away from this is that I should be probably a bit more cautious using these products, even if they aren't particularly offending or affecting me.  Or at least, I would be well served to understand them a bit more.  I did read that odorless mineral spirits have been somewhat refined, so there are _less_ toxic compounds present.

In a basement setting, in the wintertime, what might this mean?   I do wear a vapor respirator when applying anything stronger than shellac or Osmo, and of course gloves.  However, I can't really be opening the door and blowing the fan. 

Usually, I will apply finish and leave for a few hours. For the project I'm working on now, I'm using Arm R Seal and while it has a strong odor after applying, I don't smell it once I go upstairs. By the time I come back down, I'm usually smelling a bit of an oil smell but nothing too wild.   Are the vapors from this product heavier than air?   And if so, what happens to them?  Does it flash off and become less problematic over time?

Sorry for the questions - the conversation has stimulated my creativity about all the way I might be poisoning myself and others .  :o
   One thing I didn't think got mentioned ,but bears mentioning....  I too have a basement shop, and have learned the hard way that VOCs are sneaky.... out gassing finishes that have enough petro-chemicals in them also make my gas dryer load smell 'burnt' after running a dryer load of clothes. I've learned not to do laundry with any drying finish like that in the basement, and to hopefully not have it drying in the basement in the first place if I can help it and the weather outside is agreable for drying correctly.
  Water based or Shellac don't give me the burnt smell of the clothes out of the dryer, only finishes with petro VOCs.

 We didn't put two and two together until we'd rewashed a few loads of clothes..... [embarassed] [embarassed] [embarassed]
 Similar smell running an LP torpedo style heater out in my garage due to the poor flame control of that heater, and if I'm using any spray chemicals like Brake Clean in the closed garage, or haven't left the door open long enough to vent any VOCs out of it as well
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline mino

  • Posts: 193
Re: kerosene odors
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2021, 10:31 PM »
Thanks for the interesting feedback so far.

What I'm taking away from this is that I should be probably a bit more cautious using these products, even if they aren't particularly offending or affecting me.  Or at least, I would be well served to understand them a bit more.  I did read that odorless mineral spirits have been somewhat refined, so there are _less_ toxic compounds present.

In a basement setting, in the wintertime, what might this mean?   I do wear a vapor respirator when applying anything stronger than shellac or Osmo, and of course gloves.  However, I can't really be opening the door and blowing the fan. 

Usually, I will apply finish and leave for a few hours. For the project I'm working on now, I'm using Arm R Seal and while it has a strong odor after applying, I don't smell it once I go upstairs. By the time I come back down, I'm usually smelling a bit of an oil smell but nothing too wild.   Are the vapors from this product heavier than air?   And if so, what happens to them?  Does it flash off and become less problematic over time?

Sorry for the questions - the conversation has stimulated my creativity about all the way I might be poisoning myself and others .  :o
For a basement show, consider a ventilation unit with recuperation and a dedicated outlet to the roof or a few meter off the house if not possible otherwise. You do not need to keep windows open, but you really do want negative pressure in the basement so your house does not act like a chimney for any stuff released in the shop...

Even a simple recuperation setup - like a pipe-in-pipe to the roof- with a low volume fan for circulation will do wonders and not only during winter.
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