Author Topic: Epoxy and Finish  (Read 4672 times)

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Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Epoxy and Finish
« on: January 22, 2019, 10:05 AM »
Disclaimer: First time using epoxy + pigments.

I carved an indoor sign and want to fill the carved text with Epoxy. I will be using Ecopoxy UVpoxy. The final finish will be 3-5 coats of danish oil. The carved letters are 4mm deep and about 3/16" width.

Q: Do I need to heat the epoxy to make sure it sit correctly at the bottom?

Q: Should I apply a first coat of sealer or Danish oil prior to pouring the epoxy?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 11:01 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

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Offline ryan_k

  • Posts: 27
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 01:15 PM »
1. No need to heat, but brush on a layer of UVPoxy before pouring to prevent micro bubbles from forming.  You can hit it with a hair dryer or heat gun after you pour to pop any surface bubbles.

2. Don't finish the inside of the letters as it could interfere with the adhesion of the epoxy, but it's not a bad idea to seal the face before pouring, it can prevent the over pour from absorbing into the wood.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2019, 02:10 PM »
Thank you Ryan, that was my concern about the epoxy getting into the wood  [big grin]
Mario

Offline Dusty.Tools

  • Posts: 151
    • Dusty.Tools
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2019, 10:15 PM »
Slightly off topic, I’ve been interested to try this. What ‘starter’ kit did you buy?

Cheers

Ben


——————————
dusty.tools
@dusty.tools

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2019, 10:17 PM »
Slightly off topic, I’ve been interested to try this. What ‘starter’ kit did you buy?

Cheers

Ben


——————————
dusty.tools

Found a local store selling


I will give it a try on the weekend  [smile]
Mario

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6535
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 10:49 PM »
I’ve done some work with white oak and West Systems epoxy. I found out that applying the CLEAR epoxy directly to the oak darkened it significantly.

My solution was to brush on 2 coats of GF clear water based poly first before I applied the epoxy.

I’ve also had no luck using a heat gun (200º - 1200º) to pop the air bubbles in the epoxy. My go-to item for that task is a Mapp/propane torch.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 10:15 AM by Cheese »

Offline Dusty.Tools

  • Posts: 151
    • Dusty.Tools
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 12:57 AM »
Slightly off topic, I’ve been interested to try this. What ‘starter’ kit did you buy?

Cheers

Ben


——————————
dusty.tools

Found a local store selling


I will give it a try on the weekend  [smile]

Thanks!

I found their website a little unclear. No beginner’s guide!
@dusty.tools

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2019, 09:09 AM »
@Cheese I hear a lot about West system. Good stuff, unfortunately at -35 C I had to find a local store  [eek] Total boat is another one that seems to be pretty popular. If I'm going to use a lot of epoxy I will also give a try to ArtResin, new product that look to be a cheaper option.

@DustyTools agree, not much info. I bought it at the same place I get my lumber and they do demos. You might want to look locally if you can find such information. I'm visual and after seeing a demo, everything become crystal clear  [big grin]

Here a good how to video that fit pretty much any epoxy.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 09:47 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6535
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2019, 10:47 AM »
Hey Mario, here's an example of the color change I mentioned with that white oak project.

Photo 1. West epoxy being applied directly over the oak. There's a significant change in color.



Photo 2. West epoxy being applied over 2 coats of GF water based poly. Just a very subtle change in color. Don't be confused by the yellowish lighting, as it's the same oak top, it's just that the lighting is whacky.



Photo 3. The finshed countertop with 1.5-2.0 mm of West epoxy over the entire surface.


Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2019, 10:11 PM »
That top is very nice  [cool]

I get what you are saying. For my application I will be filling pockets not the whole surface. Like Ryan said previously make sense, applying a light coat of Danish oil on the top surface to protect it from that effect you are reporting.  [big grin]
Mario

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6535
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2019, 10:45 PM »
I get what you are saying. For my application I will be filling pockets not the whole surface. Like Ryan said previously make sense, applying a light coat of Danish oil on the top surface to protect it from that effect you are reporting.

Ya Mario, what I was trying to get across is that while we may view clear epoxy as a neutral material, it does indeed wet the surface of the wood and it will therefore change it’s hue. Some will like the change, some will not like the change.

Interestingly enough, some of these epoxies are honey hued while others are more clear. West produces both variants. Photo 1 in my previous post is an example of West 105 & West Special Clear 207 hardener. So it is clear yet it darkens the wood considerably.

Just like oil based vs water based clear coats, there’s a venue for both of these approaches.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 10:16 AM by Cheese »

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4268
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 12:43 PM »
This may be semantic to some but applying a clear finish to sanded wood doesn’t change the true hue of the wood it reveals it.

Anything that alters the reflective properties (of anything) changes the appearance. The same effect shown in Cheese’s photos results from simply wetting sanded wood with clear water. The water temporarily reduces the reduces the millions of light reflecting surfaces to just one so you can see the true color of the wood and get an approximation of the appearance after a clear finish is applied. If the epoxy darkened the wood more than the GF poly it’s because the poly dried to a less than glossy finish producing a more diffuse reflection of the light than the extremely glossy wet epoxy.

When looking at sanded wood keep in mind that you are seeing has a milky filter over it. Deduct that filter in your mind, wipe it with alcohol (raises the grain less than water) or give the wood a swipe with a very sharp plane to get to the true color.


Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 01:00 PM »
This may be semantic to some but applying a clear finish to sanded wood doesn’t change the true hue of the wood it reveals it.

Anything that alters the reflective properties (of anything) changes the appearance. The same effect shown in Cheese’s photos results from simply wetting sanded wood with clear water. The water temporarily reduces the reduces the millions of light reflecting surfaces to just one so you can see the true color of the wood and get an approximation of the appearance after a clear finish is applied. If the epoxy darkened the wood more than the GF poly it’s because the poly dried to a less than glossy finish producing a more diffuse reflection of the light than the extremely glossy wet epoxy.

When looking at sanded wood keep in mind that you are seeing has a milky filter over it. Deduct that filter in your mind, wipe it with alcohol (raises the grain less than water) or give the wood a swipe with a very sharp plane to get to the true color.

Micheal, I totally get what you mean. Most of the time when using epoxy, people are looking for that glossy mirror look. In my case it's not exactly true.

I have a question if you have any experience with epoxy. Here is the steps I plan to execute;

1- Sand the sign up to 120 grits,
2- Apply a Danish oil coat, buff and let it dry 24hrs,
3- Pour in the epoxy (with pigments) to fill the text and logo (two different pigmentation),
4- Sand the excess of epoxy (I understand that will remove the glossy),
5- Apply 3-5 coats of Danish oil

Anything different you would do or add?
Mario

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 4268
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2019, 04:30 PM »
@Mario the big question concerns the epoxy. Will the meniscus of epoxy be concave or convex? That will determine whether you sand the wood a lot more later or struggle sanding the epoxy while trying to avoid sanding the wood.

I’d try to get a concave epoxy surface if the wood is thick enough to withstand the extra sanding. If it isn’t, try to get a convex meniscus and then start scraping before the epoxy completely sets. There is a window of time when you can be productive (aggressive with the scraper) without risk of loosening the epoxy in the cavity.

Machine sanding epoxy should wait at least a day or you get a lot of corning on the paper. I prefer a Norton product for sanding sticky stuff. Not sure if there is a Festool equivalent.

Norton ProSand

I thought the initial sanding at 120 was coarse but you’ll probably do a good bit mor sanding after the epoxy sets so I’m not sure that or the initial coat of oil matters. 120 is way to coarse for an oil finish imo but maybe you want texture rather than beautiful wood figure? If going for wood grain texture I’d hand sand with the grain or better yet get this inexpensive machine Porter Cable Restorer and this Nylon Abrasive Wheel . The combo does a great job of knocking down the soft early growth and leaving the hard stuff and the dust collection is pretty good. (The machine is not actually made PC. The inventor/manufacturer pays PC for using the brand name etc.) The nylon abrasive will scuff up the epoxy but you could re-sand the epoxy (probably sitting a little proud by then) with abrasive on a rigid backing so you miss the wood. The machine is pretty easy to handle so you can minimize scratching the epoxy.

Good luck!


Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2019, 05:57 PM »
@Mario the big question concerns the epoxy. Will the meniscus of epoxy be concave or convex? That will determine whether you sand the wood a lot more later or struggle sanding the epoxy while trying to avoid sanding the wood.

I’d try to get a concave epoxy surface if the wood is thick enough to withstand the extra sanding. If it isn’t, try to get a convex meniscus and then start scraping before the epoxy completely sets. There is a window of time when you can be productive (aggressive with the scraper) without risk of loosening the epoxy in the cavity.

Machine sanding epoxy should wait at least a day or you get a lot of corning on the paper. I prefer a Norton product for sanding sticky stuff. Not sure if there is a Festool equivalent.

Norton ProSand

I thought the initial sanding at 120 was coarse but you’ll probably do a good bit mor sanding after the epoxy sets so I’m not sure that or the initial coat of oil matters. 120 is way to coarse for an oil finish imo but maybe you want texture rather than beautiful wood figure? If going for wood grain texture I’d hand sand with the grain or better yet get this inexpensive machine Porter Cable Restorer and this Nylon Abrasive Wheel . The combo does a great job of knocking down the soft early growth and leaving the hard stuff and the dust collection is pretty good. (The machine is not actually made PC. The inventor/manufacturer pays PC for using the brand name etc.) The nylon abrasive will scuff up the epoxy but you could re-sand the epoxy (probably sitting a little proud by then) with abrasive on a rigid backing so you miss the wood. The machine is pretty easy to handle so you can minimize scratching the epoxy.

Good luck!

Micheal, thank you for your detailed information. It's much appreciated  [big grin]

If I understand correctly, epoxy is harder to sand so i should go concave. The sign is made of 3 x 3/4" laminated boards, so plenty to sans if I need. The goal is to get a nice wood figure. one of the sign is Sapele and the other is Padauk. My initial sanding at 120 was to remove the excess of epoxy only. What I want is to get the pigmented epoxy to highlite the text. The shiny effect will come from the oil. This is my first attempt so I will adjust if I don't like it  [wink]

Thanks again.
Mario

Offline Gjarman12

  • Posts: 98
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2019, 06:56 PM »
I just did something like this in the last week and today. I used clear epoxy as I was going for a subtle look on some serving/cutting boards. I used artresin and went for a concave epoxy, then sanded it flush, which I didn’t find it hard, and it didn’t seem to alter the finish. I’ll find out on the next one (the B) in a couple days after the resin is cured.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 08:34 PM »
I just did something like this in the last week and today. I used clear epoxy as I was going for a subtle look on some serving/cutting boards. I used artresin and went for a concave epoxy, then sanded it flush, which I didn’t find it hard, and it didn’t seem to alter the finish. I’ll find out on the next one (the B) in a couple days after the resin is cured.

Nice  [big grin] please let me know how easy to use are ArtResin productS. How long you waited before sanding?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 10:14 PM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline Gjarman12

  • Posts: 98
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2019, 05:23 PM »
I waited 24 hours to sand off the artresin. Used 80 grit to start. It took a couple minutes. I used danish oil from Lee Valley. The first picture is prior to the oil. The second is after one coat. I’ll do two more with a day between coats.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2019, 05:12 PM »
Took a while but I finally get together everything required to pour the epoxy.

Can you guess what this will reveal.


Applied 1 hour ago.

The product is super easy to use and poured in like melted butter. I had to make a few pass with the butane torch to remove bubbles. Not that I have too since it will be sanded flush but I was curious how the bubbles would disappear.
Mario

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 6535
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2019, 05:29 PM »
There still may be some small voids after you sand it Mario. If that’s the case just fill them with epoxy and resand.

Offline neilc

  • Posts: 2758
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2019, 07:50 PM »
Maple leaf!

I wonder about danish oil as a sealer.

I'm about to do three cutting boards with engraved inlays.  I'm using SystemThree MirrorCast.  They suggest a brushed coat of plain epoxy first, let dry then come back with the pigmented epoxy over that.  I am thinking a cabinet scraper might be an option for removal that could be faster and easier than sanding.


Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2019, 01:53 AM »
Maple leaf!

I wonder about danish oil as a sealer.

I'm about to do three cutting boards with engraved inlays.  I'm using SystemThree MirrorCast.  They suggest a brushed coat of plain epoxy first, let dry then come back with the pigmented epoxy over that.  I am thinking a cabinet scraper might be an option for removal that could be faster and easier than sanding.

This is what I'm going to use on those signs, 3-5 coats of Danish oil


8hrs and it's still sticky  [scared] going to wait the full 24hrs  [wink]

Since it's my first experience with epoxy, I will try sanding first and if it's too slow I may try a scraper approach  [smile]
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 01:57 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline Gjarman12

  • Posts: 98
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2019, 08:02 AM »
That’s the oil I put on after too. I tried another board yesterday with colour like your red (except mine was opaque), but no seal first. Did you seal yours first? Mine didn’t work well (too much bleeding), so I surfaced it and am trying it again with a seal today. It also gave me some time to fix my design. Did you use artresin?

Offline Ptk16

  • Posts: 43
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2019, 09:02 AM »
Off topic....how amazing is the shaper origin?

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2019, 09:15 AM »
That’s the oil I put on after too. I tried another board yesterday with colour like your red (except mine was opaque), but no seal first. Did you seal yours first? Mine didn’t work well (too much bleeding), so I surfaced it and am trying it again with a seal today. It also gave me some time to fix my design. Did you use artresin?

No I didn't sealed it and will see how if any bleed. I guess it react differently with different species, will see. I made the mistake to move one of the sign and the epoxy from the letters leaked out. I will have to poor it again tonight. I use EcoEpoxy UV and the mix was easy. I thought Artresint was cheaper and was planning to give it a try next. A second look shows me that the EcoEpoxy is the best deal I could get + I can get it locally. I'm really focused on local buying, because if something go wrong I can easily go back and deal in person with them. One of the two signs will be ready for sanding/scraping and the other one need more epoxy  [embarassed]
Mario

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2019, 09:17 AM »
There still may be some small voids after you sand it Mario. If that’s the case just fill them with epoxy and resand.

I hope not, waiting 24hrs for me is like an eternity lol
Mario

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2019, 09:19 AM »
Off topic....how amazing is the shaper origin?

Don't know if the question is toward me, I made the signs with a CNC (ShapeOko 3 XXL) not from a Shaper Origin.
Mario

Offline Ptk16

  • Posts: 43
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2019, 09:25 AM »
Off topic....how amazing is the shaper origin?

Don't know if the question is toward me, I made the signs with a CNC (ShapeOko 3 XXL) not from a Shaper Origin.

Sorry, it was directed at Gjarman12 because you can see the tape used with the system in his picture above.

However...now I can ask you what you think of the shapeoko, I am tempted.

Offline Gjarman12

  • Posts: 98
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2019, 09:34 AM »
@Mario Turcot I hear you about the buying local. I bought some pigment of ecopoxy locally. I had bought th art resin a few months ago when looking for food grade epoxy. I wish I knew the ecopoxy was food grade  at that point. I called both companies in the last two weeks and spoke to a person really quickly and they were both super honest and helpful.
The bleeding is very interesting. This board that bled is of a species I don’t know. I’m trying something on my parents cutting board. The maple didn’t seem to bleed AT ALL.

Yes. The origin is awesome. I wish I had more time to use it. @Ptk16 although I had some results I wasn’t happy with on my second carving today.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 958
Re: Epoxy and Finish
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2019, 09:37 AM »
The two signs I made are from Padauk and Sapele. Will report how the bleeding went. Padauk is a messy wood to cut but I really like the look.

On another note, my knees made me avoid the shop for almost 10 days.  [crying] I'm planning to spend some time today to at least setup a CNC job or two.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2019, 09:39 AM by Mario Turcot »
Mario