Author Topic: Cabinet Interior Finishing  (Read 4631 times)

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Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 828
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2019, 08:09 AM »
Tom the crosslinker is $90.00 CDN here which is about $70.00 USD. I find this expensive but adds a little more resistance (15%) to the Sayerlack which is already really tough stuff. I mentioned/discuss the gallon issue more for the hobby guys who can't use the large quantities. The only issue I've found with Sayerlack is it will crackle when used with Zinnser Sealcoat as an undercoat. When needed I use Vinyl sealer now as an alternative.

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Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2019, 09:24 AM »
Tom the crosslinker is $90.00 CDN here which is about $70.00 USD. I find this expensive but adds a little more resistance (15%) to the Sayerlack which is already really tough stuff. I mentioned/discuss the gallon issue more for the hobby guys who can't use the large quantities. The only issue I've found with Sayerlack is it will crackle when used with Zinnser Sealcoat as an undercoat. When needed I use Vinyl sealer now as an alternative.

Thanks, I'll have too look into the pricing. I do know I'm paying about 40% more in Colorado than I am in Indiana. Part of it is the environmental and recycling fees they collect on each gallon.

It's rare I use any undercoater that is not part of the finishing system I'm using at the time.

I avoid any solvent bourne products. The vinyl sealer has to be reduced with lacquer thinner. The most flammable liquid I have in the shop is glass cleaner.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2019, 10:37 AM »
For future reference, what kind of undercoat sealer do you use with KA+?

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 828
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2019, 11:36 AM »
I have never used the KA+ clear but would test both Sealcoat and vinyl sealer. I only use them when needed as a vehicle to add warmth and chatoyance to the wood that WB doesn't offer, even the Sayerlack. I use a lot of highly figured woods and WB just does pop the grain the way I want without help. Both can be tinted with Transtint or ColorFX dyes. If I need anything more then the tone this offers I go to SW solvent based stains. I use the solvent stains because they don't grain raise the nastier woods like red/white oak and are completely compatible with the SW WB products. I'm currently testing some new clears that some reps have dropped off for my opinion. They say they give a solvent like look but that's for another thread.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2019, 12:21 PM »
For future reference, what kind of undercoat sealer do you use with KA+?

For the clears-KA+ Sanding Sealer

For the pigmented-Gen II universal primer or KA+ Surfacer.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2019, 12:25 PM »
I have a gallon of a clear here, same situation——I haven’t opened it yet. Some day I’ll get to it-maybe.

My go to stain is BAC. Have not had to use it here yet (20 months). Except for some clears over RSWO or a whitewash over RSWO, not a single stain piece.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2019, 12:53 PM »
Would you use the SW sanding sealer with KA+ over Zinsser and is there a difference between Zinsser Clear Shellac finish and sealer vs universal sanding sealer which also is clearish?

Offline kcufstoidi

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Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2019, 12:57 PM »
Have you had a chance to spray the Sayerlack pigmented opaque yet? I asked my SW rep for a sample and they sent a 5 gal pail. Nice to spray and but had to use the Gen 2 primer, which was also nice to spray. The free sample worked out great, got a job spraying 20 interior doors.

That BAC stain is really nice to work with and low odor. Works really well with the clear Sayerlack.

Offline kcufstoidi

  • Posts: 828
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2019, 01:03 PM »
KA+ clear is self sealing according to the PDS. No additional sealing needed especially for cab interiors IMHO.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=T75F557

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2019, 01:10 PM »
KA+ clear is self sealing according to the PDS. No additional sealing needed especially for cab interiors IMHO.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=T75F557

If they both seal then I suspect one has a different tint?

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2019, 01:12 PM »
Tom, I was going to buy some Enduro but see Enduro Clear Poly ($77 /g) and Enduro-Var ($102 /g) and since both are water based I’m not sure which one you used?

I was a bit surprised to see KA+ twice that of Hi-Build Lacquer and GF Enduro even higher yet. Any reason why you sprayed Enduro instead of the KA+ the other day?  It seems the difference between the two is KA+ is clear while GF Enduro is Amber tinted so it’s essentially combining the stain/dye with the finish which I suspect would cost the same to do separately and take more time?  Perhaps KA+ is better if you just want clear only or want a custom stain/dye color?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 03:24 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2019, 02:37 PM »
Would you use the SW sanding sealer with KA+ over Zinsser and is there a difference between Zinsser Clear Shellac finish and sealer vs universal sanding sealer which also is clearish?

The SW sanding sealer is my base coat. Nothing else needed.

I use Seal Coat primarily for hard to stain woods. I’ll cut it to a .5 pound cut, doing this decreases the risk of botching.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2019, 02:40 PM »
Have you had a chance to spray the Sayerlack pigmented opaque yet? I asked my SW rep for a sample and they sent a 5 gal pail. Nice to spray and but had to use the Gen 2 primer, which was also nice to spray. The free sample worked out great, got a job spraying 20 interior doors.

That BAC stain is really nice to work with and low odor. Works really well with the clear Sayerlack.

Yes. I do like how well it works.

I have a dozen proprietary colors that have been mixed in the KA+ "bases". It would take some time to get the remixed to match exactly. For now I’ll stick with the KA+.

The Gen II works great, just need to be about 15 minutes more patient before sanding.....

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2019, 02:47 PM »
KA+ clear is self sealing according to the PDS. No additional sealing needed especially for cab interiors IMHO.

https://www.paintdocs.com/docs/webPDF.jsp?SITEID=SWOEM&lang=E&doctype=PDS&prodno=T75F557

I use sanding sealer, it allows me to sand a little sooner and inspect the surfaces.

On high tannin woods you must use the sanding sealer under waterbornes, the tannins will yellow the top coat in about 6 months if you don’t use sealer.

A few other things;

Do not try to push sanding sealer out of the gun or equipment with the topcoat. I promise you do not want to find out why.

Never mix in any way  (including top or under coating) KA+ with any KA products——unless you like the color orange.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2019, 03:02 PM »
Tom, I was going to buy some Enduro but see Enduro Clear Poly ($77 /g) and Enduro-Var ($102 /g) and since both are water based I’m not sure which one you used?

I was a bit surprised to see KA+ twice that of Hi-Build Lacquer and GF Enduro even higher yet. Any reason why you sprayed Enduro over the KA+ the other day?  It seems the difference between the two is KA+ is clear while GF Enduro is Amber tinted so it’s essentially combining the stain/dye with the finish which I suspect would cost the same to do separately and take more time?  Perhaps KA+ is better if you just want clear only or want a custom stain/dye color?

The other day I shot Sayerlac Hydro Plus. I think Enduro-Var and Hydro Plus are identical twins from different parents.

I choose the Hydro Plus based on the (described) look you were trying to achieve.

For the look your trying to achieve the Enduro-Var is what you’re looking for (or Hydro Plus)

I’ve been shooting waters on wood for over 25 years. I’ve never considered the cost. In my previous life I shot solvents on automobiles of every chemical make up you can imagine. Imron was a fun one.....(you think these waters are expensive original Imron cost 350ish a gallon back in the late 70’s not including other items you needed. Imron Elite is over 500 a gallon today.)

I did shoot a piece of walnut, I’ll post it later.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2019, 05:46 PM »
Would you use the SW sanding sealer with KA+ over Zinsser and is there a difference between Zinsser Clear Shellac finish and sealer vs universal sanding sealer which also is clearish?

Good to know, I’d considered cutting the Zinsser and applying before using Trans Tint Dye to avoid blotching on the Maple. Maybe I’ll experiment with these techniques in the future.

The SW sanding sealer is my base coat. Nothing else needed.

I use Seal Coat primarily for hard to stain woods. I’ll cut it to a .5 pound cut, doing this decreases the risk of botching.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2019, 05:51 PM »
Tom, I was going to buy some Enduro but see Enduro Clear Poly ($77 /g) and Enduro-Var ($102 /g) and since both are water based I’m not sure which one you used?

I was a bit surprised to see KA+ twice that of Hi-Build Lacquer and GF Enduro even higher yet. Any reason why you sprayed Enduro over the KA+ the other day?  It seems the difference between the two is KA+ is clear while GF Enduro is Amber tinted so it’s essentially combining the stain/dye with the finish which I suspect would cost the same to do separately and take more time?  Perhaps KA+ is better if you just want clear only or want a custom stain/dye color?

I had a Chameleon painted Lexus I got from the bank after they repo’d it. It’s pretty slick what you can do with paint and always loved seeing the amazing paint jobs at low rider shows many years ago in Chicago ... would be fun to be able to paint well and give the vehicle something amazing. I figured some paint was expensive but when they said the Hi-Bild was $30 I was just shocked water based was so much more ... I guess all the extra stuff they need to do to make it work?
The other day I shot Sayerlac Hydro Plus. I think Enduro-Var and Hydro Plus are identical twins from different parents.

I choose the Hydro Plus based on the (described) look you were trying to achieve.

For the look your trying to achieve the Enduro-Var is what you’re looking for (or Hydro Plus)

I’ve been shooting waters on wood for over 25 years. I’ve never considered the cost. In my previous life I shot solvents on automobiles of every chemical make up you can imagine. Imron was a fun one.....(you think these waters are expensive original Imron cost 350ish a gallon back in the late 70’s not including other items you needed. Imron Elite is over 500 a gallon today.)

I did shoot a piece of walnut, I’ll post it later.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2019, 05:54 PM »
Since the local Menards and a Home Depot didn’t have Enduro-Var, going to have to make a trip to Rockler, I bought a quart of Zinnser Amber, Zinsser Clear, and Zinsser sanding sealer to experiment with. I figured for $15 each I can make some samples to get an idea what it does to Maple and Walnut and share with the FOG.  Do you know if the Clear is any different than regular sanding sealer ... if so I’ll return it otherwise I can try it and post pics?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 05:59 PM by Bugsysiegals »

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2019, 07:05 PM »
Since the local Menards and a Home Depot didn’t have Enduro-Var, going to have to make a trip to Rockler, I bought a quart of Zinnser Amber, Zinsser Clear, and Zinsser sanding sealer to experiment with. I figured for $15 each I can make some samples to get an idea what it does to Maple and Walnut and share with the FOG.  Do you know if the Clear is any different than regular sanding sealer ... if so I’ll return it otherwise I can try it and post pics?

The sanding sealer is chemically different, your nose will tell you when you open each can.

Wish I had pictures of some of the cars I sprayed. I have a few mundane ones, but the real customs the pictures were lost in various moves.

Tom

Offline tjbnwi

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  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2019, 08:23 PM »
Walnut, finished with 3 coats Hydro Plus.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2019, 08:33 PM »
Thanks Tom, very helpful to see actual real photos of various wood species and description of finishing agents used, etc. to get an idea of what to expect. Depending how the Maple turns out, I may or may not want my Walnut just a bit darker.  I’ll test a piece with the Enduro-Var ... if I wanted it richer/darker, would you suggest one of the Walnut Danish Oils or perhaps KA+ instead of Enduro-Var?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2019, 08:45 PM »
Thanks Tom, very helpful to see actual real photos of various wood species and description of finishing agents used, etc. to get an idea of what to expect. Depending how the Maple turns out, I may or may not want my Walnut just a bit darker.  I’ll test a piece with the Enduro-Var ... if I wanted it richer/darker, would you suggest one of the Walnut Danish Oils or perhaps KA+ instead of Enduro-Var?

Oil it. I'm a big fan of Surfix oil, do a sample piece at the same time. You can cover it with KA+ in about 30 days (I don't really recommend this, just pointing out you can do it).

The stool is finished with Surfix HD oil. The seat is walnut, wrapped with cherry, bowties are maple, legs are Ipe.

The top is finished with Surfix Outdoor oil, it is Ipe.

The stool has not been retreated in 8 years, the top gets a freshening coat every other year.

Tom

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #52 on: July 28, 2019, 08:52 AM »
Wow, very nice look. You mentioned you wouldn’t spray the KA+ over the top of the oil ... is that simply so you can refresh when needed?  What if I decide I want semi-gloss appearance ... any downside to KA+ over the top? 

Just to confirm, I would also apply the oil over the Maple At the same time as Walnut?

With regards to applying Zinsser and Surfix on test samples, do you recommend using a staining sponge, cloth, foam brush, synthetic staining brush, or something else for a good finish?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #53 on: July 28, 2019, 09:01 AM »
Touch up and I like the look of the oil.

Downside (in my application) is outside and the UV rays destroy the finishes pretty quickly. KA+ is UV resistant (no recommended outdoors), but I still don't trust any of the clears outside. This includes marine spar varnish.

Yes, it may take a little more wipe down, it does not absorb the oil at the same rate as the walnut.

I use the pads that come in the kit and paper rags for areas where the pad does not fit well.

Tom


Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #54 on: July 28, 2019, 09:21 AM »
Perfect, good to know as someday I do hope to make some outdoor furniture. How long are you letting the oil soak before wiping off?

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
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Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #55 on: July 28, 2019, 09:31 AM »
15-20 minutes.

Thin coats are the key to success.

Tom

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 281
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #56 on: July 28, 2019, 10:36 AM »
Tom
Just wanted to jump in and “thank you” for your  generous time, experience and especially the material sharing (not easy to keep up on that alone) I’ve learned all kinds of things  from your posts.....lots of great tid bits going back and forth. You’ve helped with the learning curve greatly
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline hdv

  • Posts: 67
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2019, 11:06 AM »
+1

I admire you for finding the time and patience to answer everyone's questions in such a clear and concise way. You really are a great help to others. Thanks for your effort in sharing what you've learned. It is much appreciated.

Offline tjbnwi

  • Posts: 6065
  • Cedar Tucky Indiana
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2019, 09:07 PM »
+1

I admire you for finding the time and patience to answer everyone's questions in such a clear and concise way. You really are a great help to others. Thanks for your effort in sharing what you've learned. It is much appreciated.


Tom
Just wanted to jump in and “thank you” for your  generous time, experience and especially the material sharing (not easy to keep up on that alone) I’ve learned all kinds of things  from your posts.....lots of great tid bits going back and forth. You’ve helped with the learning curve greatly

Thank you (everyone), very unnecessary.

They say you can't take it with you. The one thing you can take with you is the years of knowledge you accumulated. I believe one should leave behind as much knowledge they possibly can. I do/did the same with my previous career, I spent 10 years teaching various college classes in the discipline. To this day, I field phone calls to help solve problems in a field I've been out of for over 30 years.

With the advent of the internet it is easy to create a searchable record of information. I've received emails from people who joined this forum just so they could email me looking for an answer to a question they had. I don't mind and feel blessed that I can be of assistance.

I'd like to find more time to contribute here, but, life at times gets in the way.

We're currently running up to the Parade of Homes here. I thought I was done 2 weeks ago. We delivered our scope requirements prior to me heading home for a week, 2 weeks ago. Just before I left, I found out it was not going to be that easy......We'll be done with the added load, by judging day, this coming Thursday.

A couple of simple things we did just to do something a little different.

Tom
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:13 PM by tjbnwi »

Offline Bugsysiegals

  • Posts: 265
Re: Cabinet Interior Finishing
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2019, 10:16 AM »
Very nice work ... are you building these cabinets too?

For kitchen cabinets, I assume oil may not be the best choice to protect the wood?  Assuming the KA+ is the better choice, do you ever use oil underneath for the color or stain/dye instead for color underneath the clear?