Author Topic: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!  (Read 618931 times)

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Offline Dr. P. Venkman

  • Posts: 168
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1200 on: July 23, 2021, 10:22 AM »
a stationary dust collector, and a bandsaw  [eek]

Aren't those somewhat antithetical to their whole concept of mobile/portable/jobsite precision?

I'm all for them expanding their line, but I wouldn't hold my breath for large, shop-only tools.

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Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 181
  • to many ideas, not enough cash....
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1201 on: July 28, 2021, 01:23 AM »
although mafell has their portable bandsaw.  although you may be hard pressed to fit it into a systainer short of making a sys4.  and THAT will piss people off [tongue]
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 716
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1202 on: July 28, 2021, 06:39 PM »
although mafell has their portable bandsaw.  although you may be hard pressed to fit it into a systainer short of making a sys4.  and THAT will piss people off [tongue]
Sys3 did that.....lol
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 181
  • to many ideas, not enough cash....
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1203 on: August 01, 2021, 05:51 AM »
tho with the sys4 can wh have the plastic thickness of the classic, the top handle and the sizes of teh t-loc, and the lockky down stuff, the front handle, and the third hinge of a sys3, then that will make eveyone happy, exept those that think that change is bad [tongue]
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline milo-vs

  • Posts: 7
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1204 on: August 03, 2021, 03:06 PM »
I wish Festool made a usable Systainer inlay for the ETS EC 125.. There is so much unused space that easily could be used for storing sandpaper in an organized way.

Offline Woozal

  • Posts: 71
  • Lovin' the Festools!
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1205 on: August 03, 2021, 07:30 PM »
I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.
Woodworker and software developer.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 871
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1206 on: August 03, 2021, 07:52 PM »
I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.
Fairness is in the wallet of the consumer.  Obviously they're priced as a premium tool and most of what Festool makes justifies the price.  I can't necessarily justify the price for my budget, but if I were a professional making money with my tools, I would say that much of their lineup is fairly priced for the quality and warranty.  My Makita drills weren't that much cheaper than my Festool drills, the only difference is that my Makita batteries can also be used in a leaf blower and weed trimmer and were easier to find in a big box store.

Plenty of people have their exception list for this; I'm not going to bother openly listing mine on a Festool website.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 542
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1207 on: August 05, 2021, 09:59 PM »
I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.
This is kinda funny as Festool makes almost only "fairly priced" tools.

As in, their prices are mostly "cost+" instead of "what the market can bear". Like the normal market pricing strategies dictate.

They definitely dot not make tools which are cheap though. In any definition of the word.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7695
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1208 on: August 06, 2021, 05:46 AM »
I wish Festool made a fairly priced tool.
This is kinda funny as Festool makes almost only "fairly priced" tools.

As in, their prices are mostly "cost+" instead of "what the market can bear". Like the normal market pricing strategies dictate.

They definitely dot not make tools which are cheap though. In any definition of the word.

The Festool CS70 full set used to cost €3200.

Then UK dealers went to court over Festool's price fixing.

After the judgement in their favour some dealers would sell the full set as low as €2400.

Sure, fair.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1209 on: August 06, 2021, 07:41 AM »
The Festool CS70 full set used to cost €3200.

Then UK dealers went to court over Festool's price fixing.

After the judgement in their favour some dealers would sell the full set as low as €2400.

Sure, fair.
The only thing that price difference shows is that Festool (the retailer, not the manufacturer) was, and still is, charging a massive markup on the wholesale/manufacturer price compared to what other retailers are able or willing to do.

Forcing a dealer to sell for a specific price (presumably the same price Festool was retailing the tool for) isn't anything to do with the fairness of the price for any given tool, only the fairness of their business to business practices. I'm not defending those business practices at all, but it's a separate issue.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7695
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1210 on: August 06, 2021, 03:25 PM »
The only thing that price difference shows is that Festool (the retailer, not the manufacturer) was, and still is, charging a massive markup on the wholesale/manufacturer price compared to what other retailers are able or willing to do.

What's the difference between Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer?  [huh]

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1211 on: August 07, 2021, 06:45 AM »
What's the difference between Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer?  [huh]
In basic terms, the manufacturer sells to retailers and the retailer sells to the public. Clearly the wholesale price offered to retailers is low enough to support fairly large discounts over the price Festools online store charges (because retailers are almost always significantly cheaper), so once Festool were prevented from price fixing, that difference was made clear.

Some companies with both a wholesale and retail element will actually keep the two entities legally separate for regulatory simplicity, although I have no idea if Festool do that. But conceptually they are separate, in that Festool the manufacturer will supply Festool the retailer AND all of the third party retailers at a wholesale price, and then they’re all (now) free to set their own markup.

Offline Dr. P. Venkman

  • Posts: 168
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1212 on: August 07, 2021, 09:48 AM »
I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.

Here, manufacturers that also have a retail sales operation and sell to the public at full MSRP do so (in part) because they don’t want to undercut and anger their dealers. The dealers play a vital role in marketing and distribution, and if the manufacturer sold for less, the retailers’ sales would drop, and they would stop carrying the product. No manufacturer wants that.

Festool also still practices resale price maintenance here (what’s been called price fixing in this thread). It’s a complicated relationship to manage, and some retailers like it better than others, but that’s also a strategy largely designed to protect dealers. By not allowing an online-only dealer or a massive retail operation to undercut the pricing of smaller, more service-oriented stores, those smaller stores are somewhat protected. It could certainly be seen as anti-competitive, but it also keeps the tools on the shelves of the small, knowledgeable stores that help people learn about the products.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 716
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1213 on: August 07, 2021, 06:06 PM »
"Fair" is such a relative term. Fair to whom?
It is pretty well established that guys who use the tools to make money are not particularly "price sensitive". This is because the improved performance makes money, so the cost will come back to you over time, then become profitable after that. Then there is the 3 year warranty, this is not voided if you use them in a commercial fashion. That is their intended market.

Of course you could lie or withhold the truth, but with most of the other tool brands, if they knew you were using them in that way, you might not see it work out so well. Some even say so in a disclaimer.

"Fair" also applies to the people who make and sell those tools too. Don't they deserve to make a Dollar, Euro, Pound, whatever, too?
I have always wondered where the margins were, in this case. Whether all of the money went to the manufacturer (and the employees) or if the "wholesale" price to the dealers left some meat on the bone for them as the retailer?

I use mine for my living, so I am probably at least somewhat biased, but I would be in quite a pickle without the tools that I have become dependent upon. The DF500, TS55, RO sanders, and the MFT system are invaluable to my work. The other products that I have acquired along with them have integrated so well as part of the system, that it just makes sense.
I do have tools from other brands. As a surprise to some, they are things that Festool offers too, in some cases.
I have "extra" routers, a Dewalt mitersaw, and my drills/impacts are Makita.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1214 on: August 08, 2021, 12:48 PM »
I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.
Alex mentioned a court case on this side of the pond, where Festool do have a retail operation.

I presume (without being familiar with the details of the case) that Festool were somehow preventing or dissuading their third party retailers from selling below the price they themselves were charging consumers on their direct retail site, which would fall foul of competition laws here.

I have to say, I don’t really understand who is buying direct from Festool over here. The prices are eye-watering compared to almost all of their ‘dealers’ and I’m not sure what you gain from going direct. Maybe they don’t need to sell much to cover the cost of running the retail portion of the site.

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7695
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1215 on: August 08, 2021, 01:06 PM »
I can’t speak to the rest of the world, but in the US, Festool doesn’t sell direct to the consumer. Except for the recon site and spare parts, you have to go through a dealer.
Alex mentioned a court case on this side of the pond, where Festool do have a retail operation.

They don't have a retail operation here themselves and I never said so. Festool sells exclusively through dealers. Their own dealers took them to court because they got fed up with Festool's illegal leash.

And that's why I don't understand this split personality thing of Festool The Retailer and Festool The Manufacturer  Spandex talks about.  There is only one.

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1216 on: August 08, 2021, 04:52 PM »
I assumed the price and ‘purchase’ option on the Festool site meant they were selling themselves.

Either way though, my point was that the price difference pre and post court case doesn’t means festools prices aren’t ‘fair’, it just means their business practices weren’t legal.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 716
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1217 on: August 14, 2021, 10:04 AM »
I wish Festool made a usable Systainer inlay for the ETS EC 125.. There is so much unused space that easily could be used for storing sandpaper in an organized way.

That one sure is a disappointment compared to some others, like the MFK700. Multiple bases, dust fittings, edge guides, etc. but there aren't many accessories to that sander to fit in there. A spot for the 150 pad would be cool, but I doubt that they officially recognize that modification.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation

Offline mino

  • Posts: 542
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1218 on: August 19, 2021, 03:32 PM »
...
Either way though, my point was that the price difference pre and post court case doesn’t means festools prices aren’t ‘fair’, it just means their business practices weren’t legal.

Correct.
And the effect is that Festool -dealerships- are effectively extinct now as they are not able to compete with online stores. Good luck getting your accessory or spare part when you need it fast ...

The effect of the court case is that the dealers make almost nothing and so the service for the customer is WORSE as a result, where it exists at all.
True, the tools are cheaper. But the "cheaper" is NOT because Festool makes less. It is purely thanks to no brick-and-mortar dealerships cutting into the price now. They are now extinct for the most part.

One can argue what is better and worse.
I argue that the Law -interpretation- is WRONG here as it effectively forbids the Manufacturer to include additional intangibles/services into the cost of their product. I am convinced it is one of the unintended consequences here even. The regulation in question was written in a different time, time when online/remote sales were only a miniscule part of the market so it did not take into account the scenario in play here.

But regardless, it is patently unfair claiming that "Festool engaged in illegal practices". Such statement is False both in spirit and in letter. Until there was a court ruling on the matter, the business model was LEGAL. This is the way law works in such cases.

It would be an illegal practice if and only if Festool continued the model after the court ruling OR it was a commonly known fact that such (specific) business model is not allowed under the EU regulatory framework. Festool was indeed in the grey area legally, as (AFAIR) they had a strict policy where they sold tools exclusively via retailers /they did not do direct-sales, not even to big businesses/ which meant there was no "unfair" aspect which would have precedents in contemporary jurisprudence.

Here they lost the case because the EU court declared the goods already "entered the free market" once sold to dealers, hence Festool held no title to them and was thus not entitled to attach any restrictions, including pricing restrictions on the dealers.

The regulation was actually almost abused here - the law on this is meant to prevent manufacturers from stifling secondary sales but was conceived in the 80s where there WAS a "fair market" between the brick-and-mortar dealerships.
The law still assumes such even though nothing like an "open market for dealers" exists as there is now an "online market" and a "brick-and-mortar market" with the former systematically eliminating the physical stores - along with their services.

The case had nothing to do with fairness. It was simply a ploy by big and online retailers to force Festool to dump the smaller brick&mortar guys under the bus so they can take their share of the business. Nothing less. Nothing more.
No reason to glorify or vilify anyone, every party to that case acted in their self interest. In the end, small dealers lost, Festool lost (their dealer network), customers lost (their local dealer) and online sellers won. Also, some customers "won" by having the tools cheaper online.

/end rant
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Spandex

  • Posts: 226
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1219 on: August 20, 2021, 06:41 AM »
And the effect is that Festool -dealerships- are effectively extinct now as they are not able to compete with online stores. Good luck getting your accessory or spare part when you need it
I live near (ish) quite a few Festool retailers that carry a very decent range of accessories - I’ve never asked about ‘spare parts’, but did dealers carry those before the court case? One thing I can guarantee though, is that my local shops that don’t also have an online store are ridiculously expensive compared to those that do. But if I needed something fast, maybe the price would be acceptable.

At the end of the day, the world has changed, and most shops that don’t also sell online will struggle if they sell stuff that’s easily shipped and widely available, like tools. I guess whether you consider the service as ‘worse’ is fairly subjective. As much as I like wandering round my local ‘nice’ tool shops, looking at the shiny toys, I don’t really want to have a conversation with them about my purchases. I prefer to do my research, make my decision and buy it. I get that others are different (I see plenty of people bending the ear of the dealer while I’m browsing), but for me I like my bricks and mortar shopping to have the same amount of human interaction as my internet shopping… [wink]

Offline Onn

  • Posts: 1
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1220 on: October 12, 2021, 10:09 AM »
I wish festool made a self clamping domino so I don’t have to struggle with clamps

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 181
  • to many ideas, not enough cash....
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1221 on: October 13, 2021, 02:35 AM »
the domino KD fixings?
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Offline Kev

  • Posts: 7654
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1222 on: October 13, 2021, 03:58 AM »
Wife ...

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 181
  • to many ideas, not enough cash....
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1223 on: October 13, 2021, 06:41 AM »
Wife ...

unlimeted free festool tools, goodies and swag?  it would cost more than usual to run though and is possibly would NANIA
turns out that woodworking is 1% making things you'll use, 4% making bespoke high end firewood, 15% cleaning, and 80% looking for the bl**dy thing you just put down
PSC 420 EB, TSC 55 REB, CTL MIDI I

Online Alex

  • Posts: 7695
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1224 on: October 13, 2021, 07:18 AM »
Wife ...

Man, I knew Festool was expensive, but this would take the cake .....

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 871
Re: Fill in the blank: I wish Festool made a ______!
« Reply #1225 on: October 13, 2021, 10:07 AM »
I wish festool made a self clamping domino so I don’t have to struggle with clamps

the domino KD fixings?

The only issue with the current knockdown fixings are the extra hole needed to secure the fitting.  With the XL, this is just another 14mm mortise, with the 500 it's a separate round drilled hole.

Because of the shape of the mortise and tenon, I don't think you'd be able to get a self-clamping domino akin to the Lamello Tenso; the mortise would need to be trapezoidal rather than rectangular, or it would just pull itself back out.

I suppose another option would be the expanding Domino XL connectors, with a click-and-hold bit added on the end, similar to the Lamello Tenso.  It might be pretty time-consuming to expand all of those connectors and get them just the right snug-ness, but I'm not an engineer/product tester, so I may be way off base.