Author Topic: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings  (Read 3856 times)

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Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1733
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2023, 10:47 AM »
What is your recipro saw is someone else's 1/2" drive impact wrench and another one's grease gun. See where this is going?

If you need a large selection of basic tools running on a single battery platform there are options out there for that. Even at least two combining niche/ speciality tools from different manufacturers and their own main/basic tool selection running on the same battery platform.

No one (here) knows what tools Festool has in the making/ are going to be released sometime in future or if maybe they are even on the verge of joining one of those battery sharing alliances. Still, in my opinion it makes absolutely no sense for Festool to widen the range of basic/general tools just so they are available within the Festool battery platform.

Since you mentioned Sauter and it being a German shop, if it's solely about storage/ stringent use of Systainer for a variety of basic/general corded/cordless tools, take a look at the offerings from BTI.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

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Offline surfjungle

  • Posts: 30
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2023, 11:08 AM »
What is your recipro saw is someone else's 1/2" drive impact wrench and another one's grease gun. See where this is going?

If you need a large selection of basic tools running on a single battery platform there are options out there for that. Even at least two combining niche/ speciality tools from different manufacturers and their own main/basic tool selection running on the same battery platform.

No one (here) knows what tools Festool has in the making/ are going to be released sometime in future or if maybe they are even on the verge of joining one of those battery sharing alliances. Still, in my opinion it makes absolutely no sense for Festool to widen the range of basic/general tools just so they are available within the Festool battery platform.

Since you mentioned Sauter and it being a German shop, if it's solely about storage/ stringent use of Systainer for a variety of basic/general corded/cordless tools, take a look at the offerings from BTI.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Thanks Six. What's BTI? Yes, the storage is very useful as are the systems with MFT and dust collection. I do see where it's going but just putting my devils advocate hat on, Festool released an oscillator and angle grinder which could easily be described as tools that fall outside the pale when it comes to Festool's core competencies but common, popular, and somewhat basic tools. I also think we can largely agree on the basics. Is a drill-driver a basic? Yes. Do Festool support it? Yes. Is it part of their core competency? Yes. Is an Oscillator a basic? Maybe. Do Festool support it? Yes. Is it part of their core competency. I doubt it because it's probably a Fein Supercut in Festool's clothing. I'm happy with my Festool purchases and will hopefully get a few more this year including the angle grinder and perhaps their TPC 18/4. I wouldn't want Festool to compromise their quality by box ticking but then again, I bet that if they wanted to expand their lineup a little and outside their core competency, they'd pick a trusted manufacturer to support them white labelling. For what it's worth, Sautershop is really good and the prices are quite fair.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1733
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2023, 11:28 AM »
Festool drill/drivers excel through Centrotec & Centrotec consumables which to this day are ahead of competitors offerings.

Festool oscillating tool excels through various add-ons and is ahead of competitors offerings. Is it a Fein at heart? You bet. Festool add-ons can be mounted on the Fein devices.

Festool angle grinder/ diamond cutting systems are ahead of competitors offerings through functionality.

That is what makes Festool, Festool. There is no need for them to bring a tool just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool.

BTI: https://www.bti.de/shop-de/

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: January 04, 2023, 12:47 PM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 611
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2023, 07:39 PM »
Quote
So it is hard for them to put out too many tools, and they have to make choices about their core offerings.

Is it ?    Small or not, they somehow seem to find the time, resources and will to produce softshell jackets, hats, hoodies , and pencils.

Are any of those made by festool or even have any of the "we make it better" DNA in them ?   Nope.  So this notion that there is no need for them to bring a tool (product) just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool doesn't seem true.  Ditto with their KAL lite and Radio.   Nothing particularly special about them, but at least they run on the standard battery.  Unlike their 12v offering.   And lots o energy seems to be spent ordering up Wera stuff in custom colors to put in an expensive shipping box /carrying case.  They must sell the heck outa those  [unsure]


Quote
I think this point was more relevant 4+ years ago when Festool’s 18v line up lacked: impact driver, grinder, oscillator, and not long before that even a circular saw. . . These days i don’t really agree that there are any glaring omissions

I think the point is still quite valid.   Festool's battery powered lineup was very slow to leave the dock a few decades ago and their unwillingness to embrace / recognize / accept that battery pwr was the future, especially LiIon and 18v +,  has cost them to this day.  Their 12v sub compact program practically sank before it left the dock and is still taking on water.

Their 12v drills are still not EC / brushless and their Ah ratings for batteries lags behind the competition.  So much for the "festool touch" huh ?  I won't even get into the lack of other tools those drill batteries fit.


Clearly they can,  and do partner with firms to come up with tools they can't produce in house.  The Vecturo was mentioned already , but they also collaborated with others for their early routers and vacuums as well.  Plus, Daddy has deep pockets as evidenced by the recent acquisitions of SawStop and Shaper Origin - so capital doesn't seem to be an issue either.  And their recent liaison with BOTT benefits the core Festool carpenter, tradesman, or hobbyist user how exactly ???  Because the addition of side mount sliding mounting arrangement is such an improvement even leaving increased cost out of the equation ?   I think most users will not care if they're even aware.   Clearly, there is precedent for them to use outside help to broaden their offerings. Saying they can't do this or that because they are small or family owned just doesn't make sense.


I say just call it what it is and stop apologizing, deflecting, and making excuses for the short comings,  : It's a niche tool co. that'll never have broad offerings and rarely market leading product spex. Will they have some gems and innovations from time to time? Sure, they proven so.  But even that seems to be on the wane.   





Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 385
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2023, 08:11 PM »
I have to disagree with most of the points immediately above. Festool has innovated many offerings which other companies have tried to imitate over the years. They also make a known consistently good level of quality that despite occasional issues is far and away better than most companies in the industry.

They also design as standard into almost everything they produce a level of ergonomics and usability many other companies don't come close to matching. Plus for those who need to scale down at some point, because of all the factors above the resale value of Festool tools must surely be the best around?

So far as "finding time to make marketing items", this statement is a bit absurd I'm sorry to say. Having the marketing dept come up with pencils is the very least time consuming thing a company can do.

I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. When I started hanging doors decades ago, I couldn't have done it without the very first tracksaw Festool released. Likewise I would struggle to do joinery in an efficient and accurate manner without the speed and flexibility of the Dominos, the routers of course are also the very best available on the market.

And I'm sure many cabinet makers would attest to the invaluable nature of the MFK700 which has made trimming so much easier.

My thoughts anyway.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 385
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2023, 08:19 PM »
Festool drill/drivers excel through Centrotec & Centrotec consumables which to this day are ahead of competitors offerings.

Festool oscillating tool excels through various add-ons and is ahead of competitors offerings. Is it a Fein at heart? You bet. Festool add-ons can be mounted on the Fein devices.

Festool angle grinder/ diamond cutting systems are ahead of competitors offerings through functionality.

That is what makes Festool, Festool. There is no need for them to bring a tool just because they can, without it being a true Festool tool.

BTI: https://www.bti.de/shop-de/

Kind regards,
Oliver

Agree 100% with these points. A lot of people don't take into account the way everything is a system with Festool, and play nicely together. Plus the very stringent safety and OH&S standards applied, especially with the dangerous dust producing stuff like grinders, etc. I have used a Festool concrete grinder in the past, and because I only rarely need to use it, I own a Makita PC5000 concrete grinder, and I don't have to tell you which one is far away the easier to use tool, and the least harmful dust producing machine!

If I had to use it a reasonable amount frequently however, I'd sell the Makita and get the Festool in a flash! They are streets ahead in every way.

Offline cpw

  • Posts: 379
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2023, 09:23 PM »
I do think the Festool Vecturo adds something with the plunge base and accessories.  I have an older Fein Multimaster (corded), but do prefer the Festool one now.  The HKC is another tool that I find just better than the alternatives.

They are just never going to have the range of tools.  I've decided to use Flexvolt for my second line of batteries; which provides the drills, recip saw, and also a bunch of others that I use (lights, yard tools like chainsaw, blower, pruners, fans, etc.).  I used to have primarily ONE+ which are decent tools, and sometimes wonder if I should have chosen M12/M18 instead of yellow, but they work well enough and do have enough variety.

I have a couple of tools that are just one-offs though.    The Festool DTSC, which is like another "half battery platform", because it is a different battery, but the same charger.  I also like the Bosch 12V driver; it has the right form factor; I never fell in love with my CXS.

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1714
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2023, 09:36 PM »
I, for one, am pretty happy that Festool isn't releasing an HK-55-Mark3 - New for 2023! the year after they release the HK-55-Mark2 - New for 2022!

Do they get every tool just right on their first try?  Hardly (see also: TID-18), but I also appreciate that they take the time to try to get it as right as possible and don't waste their R&D budget chasing the next model number for the following year's release with 2 more in-lb of torque than the previous year, or 30 seconds' longer run time on an 8 hour battery.

Same goes for their overall platform breadth.  I would expect some level of dust extraction, blade stabilization, or other refinement from a reciprocating saw with Festool's name on it, whether corded or cordless.  Anything short of "better than what's already out there" would be a waste of their time and resources compared to things like improving their existing lineup.

And even though the NVR switch requirement didn't exactly come out of left field, I feel like it still short-changed some of the update/upgrade plans or at least moved a number of timelines "to the left on the calendar" from what they were originally planning for some tools, and moved other timelines to the right as a result.

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 224
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2023, 10:37 PM »
Do they get every tool just right on their first try?  Hardly (see also: TID-18), but I also appreciate that they take the time to try to get it as right as possible and don't waste their R&D budget chasing the next model number for the following year's release with 2 more in-lb of torque than the previous year, or 30 seconds' longer run time on an 8 hour battery.
Hey now, what's wrong with the TID 18? It's a very nice impact. I have it and the equivalent DeWALT and while the DeWALT is stronger, it's also loud as heck. It's almost unpleasant driving fasteners with it. I know it's loud, yet every time I sink some long screw or lag bolt, I have to brace myself. With the TID 18, it's, dare I say, kind of pleasant. Super smooth, too.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2023, 04:39 AM »
...
And even though the NVR switch requirement didn't exactly come out of left field, I feel like it still short-changed some of the update/upgrade plans or at least moved a number of timelines "to the left on the calendar" from what they were originally planning for some tools, and moved other timelines to the right as a result.
This is a very observant comment.

It is quite likely lots of low-sales tools discontinued lately were due to that. Much more so than the direct impact of making the CMS concept a no-go directly.

I bet that on many of the low volume tools the plan was to continue low-volume production but it was not economically justifiable re-doing them to meet the NVR requirement so they were EOL-ed instead.
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 376
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2023, 06:39 AM »


I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. When I started hanging doors decades ago, I couldn't have done it without the very first tracksaw Festool released.

Most trades require a wider range of tools than the Festool range and they regard their tools as expendable which no hobby WW is ever going to do when they buy a premium brand such as Festool. Also not every trade requires the same tools and the very wide range that Makita etc supply is aimed at each trade requiring a different part of the range.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 385
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2023, 07:18 AM »


I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. When I started hanging doors decades ago, I couldn't have done it without the very first tracksaw Festool released.

Most trades require a wider range of tools than the Festool range and they regard their tools as expendable which no hobby WW is ever going to do when they buy a premium brand such as Festool. Also not every trade requires the same tools and the very wide range that Makita etc supply is aimed at each trade requiring a different part of the range.

Absolutely true, what I meant but probably didn't articulate too well was I would prefer Festool focus on the smaller range of quality tools that they do, that does cover a lot if not all scenarios, than have them go down the path of the race to the bottom like a lot of the other manufacturers do. I have loads of tools from Makita, Metabo, Hitachi, Triton, etc, etc, and while they all do the job, some better than others, the difference between using a Ryobi sander vs Festool, or pretty much any planer vs the HL850, just doesn't compare.

Part of the reason I got into Festool very early on, was I was starting to develop RSI pretty bad from the tools I was using, changing to Festool with the ergonomics they design into their tools, most especially the sanders, means 40 or so years later I have no trace of RSI whatsoever now. If I use a Metabo or a Makita sander, I definitely feel it after a short while. This is part of the value tools like Festool bring. I would never want to see them dilute their range simply to produce a wider general assortment of tools to compete with other manufacturers.

Offline surfjungle

  • Posts: 30
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2023, 09:12 AM »
Just to reiterate my position as it seems to be getting lost on this second page. Festool could do with adding a few more _common_ power tools. I also agree that they should not put out tools for every conceivable use but right now, there's a few things missing that, from my perspective, reduce the value proposition of Festool's own battery platform. While this might be subjective, they have added items that are clearly not designed / made by them so have set a precedent and are clearly not blind to this request. Before posting, I absolutely accepted that I'd need to use a second vendor - either Makita or Hilti - to plug the gaps. I just like Festool enough to want to see them cover those basics as my first preference, especially with their system integrations.

Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 606
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2023, 10:33 AM »
Just to reiterate my position as it seems to be getting lost on this second page. Festool could do with adding a few more _common_ power tools. I also agree that they should not put out tools for every conceivable use but right now, there's a few things missing that, from my perspective, reduce the value proposition of Festool's own battery platform. While this might be subjective, they have added items that are clearly not designed / made by them so have set a precedent and are clearly not blind to this request. Before posting, I absolutely accepted that I'd need to use a second vendor - either Makita or Hilti - to plug the gaps. I just like Festool enough to want to see them cover those basics as my first preference, especially with their system integrations.

I personally think that cross-pollination between brands is something we’re going to see more of going forward - and from a financial point of view it makes a whole lot of sense. The R&D/development costs of bringing a new product to market are huge, so if there’s something already out there which can be adapted and rebranded whilst maintaining the quality status of a brand, it’s pretty much the obvious way to go. Whilst I really do understand your frustration at not currently being able to kit out solely with Festool cordless, I actually admire the company for sticking to its core principles of producing innovative, niche tools rather than trying to be all things to all men. The same thing has been happening across the automotive sector for years - the immediate example which springs to mind is that of the Mercedes Sprinter van. The Volkswagen Crafter is the same van with a different badge. Some goes for the M.A.N. TGE = same van, different badge.

One other important factor is that Festool manufactures in Europe, not in some Far Eastern sweatshop - and that means a state-of-the art, expensive-to-operate facility, manned by employees earning a good living, with healthcare, pension etc. all funded by the profit they make on every tool they sell. Unless the company has a good idea that it can sell enough volume to cover these high costs over the lifetime of a product, they just aren’t going to take that level of risk - and rightly so.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 10:38 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline surfjungle

  • Posts: 30
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2023, 10:44 AM »
Just to reiterate my position as it seems to be getting lost on this second page. Festool could do with adding a few more _common_ power tools. I also agree that they should not put out tools for every conceivable use but right now, there's a few things missing that, from my perspective, reduce the value proposition of Festool's own battery platform. While this might be subjective, they have added items that are clearly not designed / made by them so have set a precedent and are clearly not blind to this request. Before posting, I absolutely accepted that I'd need to use a second vendor - either Makita or Hilti - to plug the gaps. I just like Festool enough to want to see them cover those basics as my first preference, especially with their system integrations.

I personally think that cross-pollination between brands is something we’re going to see more of going forward - and from a financial point of view it makes a whole lot of sense. The R&D/development costs of bringing a new product to market are huge, so if there’s something already out there which can be adapted and rebranded whilst maintaining the quality status of a brand, it’s pretty much the obvious way to go. Whilst I really do understand your frustration at not currently being able to kit out solely with Festool cordless, I actually admire the company for sticking to its core principles of producing innovative, niche tools rather than trying to be all things to all men. The same thing has been happening across the automotive sector for years - the immediate example which springs to mind is that of the Mercedes Sprinter van. The Volkswagen Crafter is the same van with a different badge. Some goes for the M.A.N. TGE = same van, different badge.

One other important factor is that Festool manufactures in Europe, not in some Far Eastern sweatshop - and that means a state-of-the art, expensive-to-operate facility, manned by employees earning a good living, with healthcare, pension etc. all funded by the profit they make on every tool they sell. Unless the company has a good idea that it can sell enough volume to cover these high costs over the lifetime of a product, they just aren’t going to take that level of risk - and rightly so.

If it came down it it and Festool was to compromise on it's core tenets for a few more basic items, I would still just as happily go with Makita or Hilti. That's an excellent point about the Made-in-Germany items which I presume most are. It's also nice to be supporting a neighbour and the EU.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 611
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2023, 01:00 PM »
Quote
I have to disagree with most of the points immediately above. Festool has innovated many offerings which other companies have tried to imitate over the years. They also make a known consistently good level of quality that despite occasional issues is far and away better than most companies in the industry.

I'm a bit confused as to what you're disagreeing with ?   I never said FT wasn't an innovator; I said their innovations are coming farther and farther apart these days.  They are acquiring more than they are innovating recently. Never said they didn't deliver quality either, I said their spex are usually lower than competitors. 

Quote
. A lot of people don't take into account the way everything is a system with Festool, and play nicely together.
   I think your offbase here.  Lots of people take the "system" into account - it's a big selling point.  And as far as everything playing nicely together ........................nope.    The 12v sander batteries don't play with the 12v drills or anything else for that matter.  The cleantec hose end dosen't play well with a lot of older tools and some of the new ones too.  The new SYS3 heights don't align with the previous generations  of systainers.   Deal breakers ?   No, but let's not get carried away with how good and perfect the "system" is.

Festool isn't alone in the concrete world - Metabo's dust management is just as good, and Hilti is right there.  Both co.'s offerings for drilling dust mgmt. put FT to shame.


You missed my point(s) of the marketing fluff entirely.  It was this: 1. Festool can and does partner with other companies to do things outside their core competency - like jackets and pencils.  2. The example was also used to refute another poster's claim that Festool only comes up with stuff if they can make it better or put the "Festool Secret Sauce" into it. Clearly that's not the case with this stuff.  3. In conjunction, I also pointed out that FT partners/ outsources non marketing products like the Vecturo, Radio, handtools, ect........ so to say they can't do this or that because they are small and don't have the resources/contacts to produce new stuff doesn't really seem believable.


Quote
I would far prefer to have a smaller range of tools of very high quality, good ergonomics, fantastic usability and performance, and high resale value, than a shed full of DeWalts, Makitas, etc. 

Your preference would seem to align with FT's so I think you're safe there.  I do think you missed other's view re: the lack of offerings.  They don't really want a shed full of festools either - they're simply looking for a bit more than is offered now.   And my contention is Festool could do so if they chose to via partnering.   Something they already do.





 

Offline surfjungle

  • Posts: 30
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2023, 02:31 PM »

Festool isn't alone in the concrete world - Metabo's dust management is just as good, and Hilti is right there.  Both co.'s offerings for drilling dust mgmt. put FT to shame.
While I have no experience with Metabo nor Hilti, I'm unsurpised to learn this. I bought a H-class Starmix 1635 that's excellent. Mafell's own M-class is a rebadged Starmix M class. It has autoclean on the filters, something Festool did not have until recently and I think they still may not have it on their H-class. I bought it specifically to deal with plaster and fibre glass.
 
3. In conjunction, I also pointed out that FT partners/ outsources non marketing products like the Vecturo, Radio, handtools, ect........ so to say they can't do this or that because they are small and don't have the resources/contacts to produce new stuff doesn't really seem believable.
Exactly. For example, they could contract out a recip spec to either Metabo or TTI (who own Milwaukee etc).

I do think you missed other's view re: the lack of offerings.  They don't really want a shed full of festools either - they're simply looking for a bit more than is offered now.   And my contention is Festool could do so if they chose to via partnering.   Something they already do.

Absolutely. I'm not looking for 20 new offerings, just less than 5 and this is far less subjective that posters think. Look at all the major brands, find out what is used the most. Where there are draws, use the purchase numbers and you should have what the most popular cordless offerings are. I'm willing to bet that Festool are missing a few. That common power tool not part of Festool's core competencies? No problem - find a competent vendor and work on making some genuine value add modifications and BOOM! I never said I don't accept having to have at least one more brand backing me up.

Separately, it's quite amusing to note that Hilti do not have a high torque drill / driver Nuron offering. Their latest only goes up to 85 Nm. Perhaps impact drills are making high torque less important?

« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 02:33 PM by surfjungle »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: Festool not covering the basics with their cordless offerings
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2023, 02:34 PM »
Is it ?    Small or not, they somehow seem to find the time, resources and will to produce softshell jackets, hats, hoodies , and pencils.
A strawman par excellence. Congratz but please avoid more of these.

Festool definitely does not produce nor design any of their fan merchandise. Using that as an argument is bordering with ... I better not continue this trail.

Quote
Ditto with their KAL lite and Radio.   Nothing particularly special about them, but at least they run on the standard battery.  Unlike their 12v offering.   And lots o energy seems to be spent ordering up Wera stuff in custom colors to put in an expensive shipping box /carrying case.  They must sell the heck outa those ...
Again, (mostly) NON-TOOLS. Wonderful. But you miss even here. The KAL-LITE actually happens to solve a real problem *). See below. Though the radio is NOT a tool, nor is it an actual Festool product. It is a convenience item not designed nor produced by Festool. The only thing Festool about it is the battery interface and the Logo. And that is absolutely OK. No sane person would transfet a "Festool tool" expectation onto it.

If you knew something about KAL-LITE, then you would know that WHEN IT CAME OUT it was one of the top tools on the market in its category. On some aspects it is still there with the best on usability/practicability. It was the first work light which had every of its sides at a different angle to allow pointing it differently without any mechanism. Sure, that may seem obvious today. But these are things that come out of thousands of hours spent on R&D. Once discovered/tuned, they are extremely easy to copy and stop being "unique" eventually. The KAL LITE is close to that point if not there indeed.

FT clearly built a small team of lightning experts and these folks came with the PLANEX 2, with the inspection lights etc. But these folks did not come out of nowhere. They came out of specific compliants FT gathered about workplace lightning solutions - available at the respective time - not being up to snuff. If you think the FT lightning experts can be re-tasked to design a top of the line recip saw. Well, I have a bridge to sell you.

The funny thing here is that the SYSLITE UNI was discontinued precisely because, by 2020 ,it did not bring anything special - ANYMORE. Unlike in 2000s when it was one of the top solutions on the market.

I will stop here.


From your messaging there is clearly a dog to beat. Breaking your sticks is of no use as they are not the issue. Please consider stepping back a bit. I am sure of one thing - beating the Festool "dog" will not make go away what really bothers you.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2023, 02:37 PM by mino »
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!