Author Topic: When will Metric Tools return?  (Read 8623 times)

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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1245
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 10:05 PM »
Actually  I find this converation funny. For the logest time here folks were complaining why didnt festool make tools using the imperial system. Now that they do everyone is complaining why dont them make metric.

to me it really doesnt matter. As I previously said I have a contractor calc app on my Iphone and Ipad and it converts back and forth in seconds.

People don't want an app, and it's not about converting or how hard it is. It's about that matter this situation shouldn't exist at all.

Selling both is the direct option/fix.  Clearly if people had to wait a bit longer to get the tool metric people would be fine with that, but at least they would have a native tool, not a gender changed one.

Bigger picture goes back to corporate responsibility and stewardship.  Most companies understand the value of doing the right thing and being a good "citizen".  Thus why they do things like make efforts to be environmentally friendly, or said sustainably harvested trees, maybe push recycling, maybe get out front on social change issues. Basically they put the effort forth to be good exampled and be ahead of society.  They were doing that.  Suddenly going inch in a market flies in the face of that.   While it's not right for other companies to slap inch labels on their tools even though they aren't metric in design.  No others am I aware of that decided to take a step back.  Those companies just haven't taken that last step forwards.   Going from metric to inch is going backwards, along with forcing it on all people even when a lot of us are not metric and as a society we have been going metric for a long time, even when others just haven't noticed.  It's poor corporate responsibility on a company to do that.

If a Germany car company pulled all their diesel/gas/electric cars from the US market and replaced them with Coal burning cars on the basis that the US still uses a lot of coal it would not go over well.  You don't go backwards as a company even if there is no legal obligation to go any particular way.

It's not just about conversions, for some of us it's simply down to Ethics.  Inch system is something that everyone should actively be eliminating, and 96% of the world has done a good job at it.  And within the US inch based system are gone in most of our country/industries/etc, with just a thin last little bit, which happens to be the last little be people tend to see.  Getting rid of inch based system entirely is very easy. Most people will instantly adjust as they are already doing it a lot.  If tomorrow all road signs were converted, fuel pumps too, and with a push of a button our cars instrument clusters switched, the vast majority would go with it without a hitch or issue.  We are basically a "Dagen H Day" away from doing it in this country.  But soon as companies do as Festool did, or people go "just use this app, it's fine" we take step back from the switch.  You encourage a baby to stand and then to walk.  You don't show it how it can live its life crawling on the floor just because it falls a few times.

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Offline Laminator

  • Posts: 359
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2018, 10:24 PM »
I hope they get back to metric fast!  I would sleep better!  Glad all my festools are metric.

Offline Untidy Shop

  • Posts: 2746
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2018, 10:27 PM »
As an outsider observer, I think some here are missing the voltage issue, which is related. Almost all of Festool's market outside the US and Canada is Metric and 220/240V. The exception is 110V on some building sites in the UK.

Consequently Festool has now committed the majority of its 110V production to Imperial. Well st least the application of guides with Imperial stickers.   [smile] I wonder which days if the week Routers for NA are made?[big grin]

I think a Metric is the go, and I have used it most of my adult life. My childhood was Imperial, but I rarely use it. But Hey?  I do not live in NA.  [eek]  [smile]

As to Festool's reasoning?! In part  - see #13

In the past they offered consumer applied Imperial Stickers, why not Metric stickers now. The tools are still Metric.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 10:35 PM by Untidy Shop »
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Offline Cheese

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Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2018, 11:21 PM »
The tools are still Metric.

Bingo...that’s my biggest knee-jerk reaction to Festool’s decision. The tools are still metric, it’s the scales that are FUBAR.

When I set my HKC to saw a kerf that is 3/16” (.1875”) deep, it instead cuts a kerf that is 5mm (.1969”) deep that’s how it works. In other words, I’ve now cut completely through the wood. That’s not good. 
Festool’s solution was a half-baked marketing attempt to drum up some more USA business with a minimum of tooling investment.  Simple as that, minimize your expenses, maximize your profits.
It’s a bit like Ford USA introducing their new “metricized” Escape for the foreign market because it now has a 30 liter gas tank, while nothing else changed.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2018, 11:33 PM by Cheese »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1245
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2018, 12:38 AM »
As an outsider observer, I think some here are missing the voltage issue, which is related. Almost all of Festool's market outside the US and Canada is Metric and 220/240V. The exception is 110V on some building sites in the UK.

Consequently Festool has now committed the majority of its 110V production to Imperial.


Well, this is a whole different issue that really shouldn't exist.  Festool could/should just make their tools universal.  Do as other electronic device industries learned long ago, make your products 100-240VAC 50/60hz,  ship with correct plug-it cord for country shipped too.   It's one thing when your tools run synchronous AC motors in them, you have no choice but to redesign for each Voltage/frequency combo you want to sell into.   It's down right crazy to make tools with brushless/permanent mag motors and not do this since you all ready put all the control circuitry in there, now you just need to build it to cover the range.  Power comes in, rectify to what every the internal DC bus on the tool is (hint, pick the same bus voltage as the battery you want to use on cordless tools).  Now you can use all the same parts for your battery tools as cordless tools, and or just do as some companies are catching on to, make all your tools cordless and have "batteries" that are just rectifiers that bring in power from the mains and convert to the same voltage your battery system uses.    No more country specific tools, no more having to decided cordless or corded, the tool is always the same, just ship the wall adapters (IE tool mounted wallwarts/recitfiers) out for each country.  Bonus for customers, they can run off the wall/vaccum when they want, but if they need to go "off grid" slap a battery on instead.

The situation Festool got themselves into far as motors/voltages/etc is a completely self inflicted problem others avoided or are now avoiding.  If Black & Decker/Dewalt  can figure this out, so can Festool.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1245
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2018, 12:49 AM »


In the past they offered consumer applied Imperial Stickers, why not Metric stickers now. The tools are still Metric.


Well, I don't think many people want a sticker, I know I don't.   I would more say if there are real parts, toss them in the box.  I believe on the routers it's a part that they send to people to replace, so just toss it in the box from the start.  On the saws they say it has to go back to them for the change, not a fan of that. And since I'm going to be taking the tool apart anyways for regular cleaning/inspection or if it ever has an issue, just send it to me in the box and I can swap it from the start.  If someone is the type who doesn't do fairly regular tear downs on their tools, they could still send it to Festool, and the part would be right there for them.   Still in the end, that just should be a path folks have to go down.

Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 258
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2018, 08:30 AM »
That means people want the option to buy it in either metric or imperial.

What's the name of the contractor calculator app that you use?

Calculated Industries sells apps and physical calculators for doing conversions for all sorts of applications. I have one of their construction calculators that gets a lot of use as well as one of their apps that does temp weight and volume conversions. The physical calculators are available at the orange and blue home centers.

http://www.calculated.com/

Online rst

  • Posts: 2532
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2018, 09:51 AM »
I use Calculated Industries desk and pocket calculators and a free app called Unit Converter on my phone.

Offline jobsworth

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Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2018, 10:25 AM »
@rst

Thats what I use they have a app I use on my iPhone and IPad. So this metric Imperial thing is a nothing burger

Online GoingMyWay

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Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2018, 10:28 AM »
Thanks for the recommendations for Calculated Industries.  I'm terrible at math and really struggle with the fractions.  It looks like the Measure Master Pro Calculator would be very helpful to me.
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Offline jpmeunier

  • Posts: 94
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2018, 10:46 AM »
@rst

Thats what I use they have a app I use on my iPhone and IPad. So this metric Imperial thing is a nothing burger

As an Engineer/Manager in an industrial facility, the use of a mixed system is a nightmare. All of my European equipment suppliers use metric, half of my American suppliers do as well.


Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1017
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #41 on: May 24, 2018, 11:43 PM »
As an outsider observer, I think some here are missing the voltage issue, which is related. Almost all of Festool's market outside the US and Canada is Metric and 220/240V. The exception is 110V on some building sites in the UK.

Consequently Festool has now committed the majority of its 110V production to Imperial. Well st least the application of guides with Imperial stickers.   [smile] I wonder which days if the week Routers for NA are made?[big grin]

I think a Metric is the go, and I have used it most of my adult life. My childhood was Imperial, but I rarely use it. But Hey?  I do not live in NA.  [eek]  [smile]

As to Festool's reasoning?! In part - see #13

In the past they offered consumer applied Imperial Stickers, why not Metric stickers now. The tools are still Metric.



The motors used in a lot of tools are universal 120v/60Hz and 110v/50Hz or 240v/60Hz and 220v/50Hz. The 110v tools sold in the UK will work in the US as will the 220v tools. I have not verified that the motors are the same part number, but have done so with other manufacturers. The only difference is the cord. I own and use several 110v UK tools that I bought in England and they work fine. None are Festool, but it is highly unlikely they use different motors for the UK than the US.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1245
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2018, 12:41 AM »

The motors used in a lot of tools are universal 120v/60Hz and 110v/50Hz or 240v/60Hz and 220v/50Hz. The 110v tools sold in the UK will work in the US as will the 220v tools. I have not verified that the motors are the same part number, but have done so with other manufacturers. The only difference is the cord. I own and use several 110v UK tools that I bought in England and they work fine. None are Festool, but it is highly unlikely they use different motors for the UK than the US.

110V is also much more than just the N.America,  it's also most the Caribbean nations, Central America, some places in South America, parts of Northern Africa,  Taiwan, Japan (100V and uses US plug), and even North Korea (lots of sales there for sure  [tongue]).  Now of those, only Japan is going to make for much of a large market, but the point being that the tools are going to be far from unique to US/Canada/and construction sites of the British isles.  So certainly aren't streamlining anything by making them inch for US/Canada.  I wish NA would have ditched split phase 220/110 system in the 50s, but as is, we are stuck with 110 for small appliances.  Only way it goes away now is via DC conversion brought on by Solar/Battery market growth.

Still, just like computers, having the tools handle anything from 100V to 240V with the exact same tool is something they could have done, and as I mentioned above, as others take the  DC/AC approach on tools, so can Festool.  Make 1 model of each tool and be done.

Maybe they should sell the tools in Japan not in Metric but in Shakkan-hō,  according to wiki they are still common in carpentry in Japan.  Based on the logic forced on the US, they should change there too.

Offline Pizza Steve

  • Posts: 167
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2018, 03:25 PM »
I vote for removable imperial stickers to be factory installed on all NA tools.

You want to switch to the dark side and utilize the metric mechanisms that the "imperial tools" are actually using?  Just peel the sticker off!

Charge dummies $75 for Festool USA to reapply an imperial sticker in the correct place if it was removed.

That way, EVERYONE is happy: metric users, imperial users, and the whiny vendors with money tied up in stock.  End of story!

Offline vkumar

  • Posts: 528
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2018, 03:46 PM »
I think for some tools --routers come to mind, they have to swap out the rack and pinion for the depth stop-maybe I am wrong about routers but I am sure there are some tools where it is more than a sticker involved.
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Offline Corwin

  • Posts: 2644
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2018, 04:20 PM »
I vote for removable imperial stickers to be factory installed on all NA tools.

You want to switch to the dark side and utilize the metric mechanisms that the "imperial tools" are actually using?  Just peel the sticker off!
...

I think we have a winner!  [thumbs up]

I think for some tools --routers come to mind, they have to swap out the rack and pinion for the depth stop-maybe I am wrong about routers but I am sure there are some tools where it is more than a sticker involved.

No, the routers simply have an Imperial scale while the mechanism remains metric.

Offline DMcL

  • Posts: 1
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2020, 11:40 PM »
I joined the FOG in May 2013. Very soon,  with some other Aussies and others from Europe, I found myself within often vigorous debates with some USA members regarding the relevant merits of metric and imperial measurement systems.

Obviously Festool USA listened!!   [eek]

But it is only a scale. The tools are still Metric. Can not see why both scales can not be offered in North American markets. Big mistake by Festool USA here - getting many of their  consumer base to convert/adapt  to Metric, and then dumping on them.


I'm a Canadian and grew up with metric. I just purchased a TS75 today only to find out it is imperial. Why is my first question? Canada is not the US, but for some reason we are catering to old men here instead of the new young people in my age range who are getting into wood working, or in my case using the tools for sculptural means. It is infuriating that every time I get a festool, I need to bug the Canadian reps to send me a metric scale for my already metric tool that has ridiculous imperial markings on it. I thought the USA was trying to get away from the Monarchy? You'd think the US would have been the inventor of metric based on their distaste for British Royalty.


Offline Birdhunter

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Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2021, 06:00 PM »
I’m amphibious, I use both inch and metric. :)
Birdhunter

Offline Yardbird

  • Posts: 110
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2021, 07:03 PM »
I am just thankful we Americans have our monetary system on metric.  OK-we may have a quarter left over from the Spanish pieces of eight days, but we have dollars and cents which is metric.  It took the UK a while to catch up with that. 
However, surveying is a completely different animal, a language all its own.  A rod is 16 1/2 feet, a chain 66 feet, a link 7.92 inches, a section one square mile.  Pull out your land deed and try to decipher the description. 

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 217
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2021, 07:39 PM »
My original DF500 and OF1400 were metric and nothing else I had at that time had scales. I remember the talk about the stickers, but it didn't affect me, back then. When I had to replace everything in the fall of '19, it was all imperial.....but not really. Everything about them is metric except the depth scales.
I really don't understand the complaint from the ones who wanted it that way? Everything else is still metric. The TS 55 blade? 160 mm with a 30mm bore. The measurement from the far side of the base plate of the TS55 to the blade? 160mm. The holes on the MFT? 20mm with 96mm spacing.
The cutters and Dominos themselves are still metric.
The only real concession to Imperial measurement is with router collets. It takes some real effort to get 8mm router bits here, but I am glad that Festool still includes them with the OF1010, OF1400 and MFK700. Sure, you can get a few, but only because of the internet. Locally no one carries them.
I have used the ones from Lee Valley for years and recently ordered a Bosch set from Amazon UK. There are dozens of Festool bits on that site too, but the famous NAINA comes into that.
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Offline tsmi243

  • Posts: 33
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2021, 10:34 AM »

Offline petersd

  • Posts: 37
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2021, 11:52 AM »
$100 seems a bit pricy. Their auto shipping calculator may be off. I would call and ask for a better shipping price.

Offline WillAdams

  • Posts: 72
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2021, 01:48 PM »
Including 8mm collets seems a no-brainer since they're essentially 5/16", no?

I've been switching over to 8mm (5/16") tooling on my CNC and have been finding said tooling far more rigid.

Online mino

  • Posts: 197
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2021, 05:11 PM »
Including 8mm collets seems a no-brainer since they're essentially 5/16", no?

I've been switching over to 8mm (5/16") tooling on my CNC and have been finding said tooling far more rigid.
Yep. 8mm is just the nice balance for a hand-held tool use.

6 mm (and 1/4) is too weak for many uses and 12 mm (and 1/2) are overkill for most uses

Where one *needs* 12mm+ one is already moving into the route-table-really-desired territory where e.g. an OF1010 would simply not have enough oomph to begin with.

My collection is all 8mm except a few dedicated trim-router bits.
I think in US 1/2 is so popular precisely because 1/4 is just too weak for so many hand-held uses that people got used to "needing 1/2" almost as a default by it being "the thing bigger than 1/4".
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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 217
Re: When will Metric Tools return?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2021, 07:18 PM »
Including 8mm collets seems a no-brainer since they're essentially 5/16", no?

I've been switching over to 8mm (5/16") tooling on my CNC and have been finding said tooling far more rigid.
Yep. 8mm is just the nice balance for a hand-held tool use.

6 mm (and 1/4) is too weak for many uses and 12 mm (and 1/2) are overkill for most uses

Where one *needs* 12mm+ one is already moving into the route-table-really-desired territory where e.g. an OF1010 would simply not have enough oomph to begin with.

My collection is all 8mm except a few dedicated trim-router bits.
I think in US 1/2 is so popular precisely because 1/4 is just too weak for so many hand-held uses that people got used to "needing 1/2" almost as a default by it being "the thing bigger than 1/4".

Yes, me too. I have traditionally bought 1/2" shank router bits for pretty much everything where the cutter itself is bigger than 1/4". I only have 1/4" shank bits for the smallest things. Laminate trimmers, 1/8" roundover, etc.  I got my first 8mm bits when I first bought the MFK700 and did the Paul Mercel modification to the zero degree base. Later, after buying the OF1010, I began to look into expanding my collection, to better utilize it.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)