Author Topic: When did this happen? (Read 13001 times)

six-point socket II · « **Reply #30 on:** January 08, 2021, 10:44 PM »

The 50mm CE bits will be available in sets of two as spares - just like it should be with consumables.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Coen · « **Reply #31 on:** January 08, 2021, 11:39 PM »

Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

six-point socket II · « **Reply #32 on:** January 09, 2021, 12:01 AM »

When that set was originally released it was either the non-locking, or the (troubled) old style locking bit holder. The BHS 60 wasn't available at that time.

I can't complain about the Festool bits (50 and 100 mm CE) - and I can actually compare them to PB Swiss equivalents.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Alex · « **Reply #33 on:** January 09, 2021, 03:03 AM »

Quote from: Coen on January 08, 2021, 11:39 PM

Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

I prefer the non-locking bitholders, especially the long 150 mm one is used a lot here. I don't like the old locking bitholder at all. Haven't had the chance to try the new one yet.

What's wrong with the silver bits? Haven't had the chance to try them yet either. I keep running into cheap offers for the gold 100 mm bits so I've been buying those.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #34 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:26 AM »

I’d like a 50mm set, but why does FT ignore hex bits and a few slotted? ..amongst other..

I’ve got a set of the longer ones, but keep reaching for my older sets as these cover all screws.

So, the standard bit holder, both the BH 60 and the magnetic only is the most used. I’d surely like longer bits for better reach in deep holes and so forth. There the Centrotec would be my favourite instead of using long reach standard bit holders.

six-point socket II · « **Reply #35 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:34 AM »

Festool is ahead of time. Not too soon from now, only oldtimers like us will even know what a slotted screw is - and how it is used. lol.

Speaking of hex, I've wondered about that as well. But I guess, it's because its inseparably linked to large scale production furniture, instead of artisanal/ handcrafted furniture.

Kind regards,
Oliver

Alex · « **Reply #36 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:40 AM »

Quote from: six-point socket II on January 09, 2021, 05:34 AM

Festool is ahead of time. Not too soon from now, only oldtimers like us will even know what a slotted screw is - and how it is used. lol.

Hmm, if you work on older houses and furniture you constantly find those older fasteners. It will take centuries before those are all gone. In the mean time, we will need those dirty rotten old slotted bits and it is very short sighted of Festool to think torx is the only thing that matters now.

On an average workday I can use 4 different types of bits (PZ, PH, Tor, Slot) in various sizes, and I all need them at hand in centrotec.

six-point socket II · « **Reply #37 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:47 AM »

Please read the language of smileys correctly.

I know exactly what it's like to take a kitchen apart with 5, 6 maybe 8 different types of fasteners/screws used - sometimes on one cabinet. You won't meet me without an assortment of slotted, hex, square, PH, PZ, TX, +- (combination type) bits ...

Kind regards,
Oliver

Bert Vanderveen · « **Reply #38 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:48 AM »

Slotted screws and powered screwdrivers are not a great combo. Maybe Festool tries to keep our language while (un)screwing clean…

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #39 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:48 AM »

Yup, and I wonder how many installers, fitters that do not fit pre-fabricated furniture and cabinets.. every week

Even as Alex says, coming cross when dismantling.
For many visible screws, the slotted and sometimes hex looks better. Most brass screws looks best with slotted head. These heads benefit from the sure fit of Centrotec.. so come on Festool!

Alex · « **Reply #40 on:** January 09, 2021, 06:20 AM »

Quote from: six-point socket II on January 09, 2021, 05:47 AM

Please read the language of smileys correctly.

I know exactly what it's like to take a kitchen apart with 5, 6 maybe 8 different types of fasteners/screws used - sometimes on one cabinet. You won't meet me without an assortment of slotted, hex, square, PH, PZ, TX, +- (combination type) bits ...

Kind regards,
Oliver

I know you're very well outiftted Oliver.

Now I'd like Festool to take your German Gründlichkeit for example.

Coen · « **Reply #41 on:** January 09, 2021, 01:12 PM »

Quote from: Alex on January 09, 2021, 03:03 AM

Quote from: Coen on January 08, 2021, 11:39 PM
Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

I prefer the non-locking bitholders, especially the long 150 mm one is used a lot here. I don't like the old locking bitholder at all. Haven't had the chance to try the new one yet.

What's wrong with the silver bits? Haven't had the chance to try them yet either. I keep running into cheap offers for the gold 100 mm bits so I've been buying those.

Silver? They are more gray.

The fit of the gray PZ bits are horrible. Immediate camout, contrary to the golden bits that fit quite well and dont cam out as easily.

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #42 on:** January 09, 2021, 03:31 PM »

Quote from: Coen on January 09, 2021, 01:12 PM

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time. Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips. But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #43 on:** January 09, 2021, 04:17 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 09, 2021, 03:31 PM

Quote from: Coen on January 09, 2021, 01:12 PM

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time. Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips. But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.

Actually, they tried square drive here, but was soon discarded. There where also a “bridge” between Philips and square, they where very good, but demanded very wide screw heads and disappeared as quickly as they came. After that, it’s Torx or Pozidrive. Pozidrive are very good, miles better than Philips. Philips now nearly only exists in drywall screws (thanks for that). I’d be happy to see Philips gone.
What I don’t get, is the lack of availability of Pozidrive in the US? We’re drowning in fasteners and tools carrying Pozidrive in Europe. But then again, square is nowhere to be seen here anymore. I still have the bits, just in case. Pozidrive is a good fit, and sits well even if the bit is at a slight angle, Torx is sometimes to rigid, but straight in they are good.

Cheese · « **Reply #44 on:** January 09, 2021, 05:02 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on January 09, 2021, 04:17 PM

There where also a “bridge” between Philips and square, they where very good, but demanded very wide screw heads and disappeared as quickly as they came.

The “bridge” screw I’m familiar with is Spax and I thought for some reason they were German.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #45 on:** January 09, 2021, 06:26 PM »

That might well be right, Cheese. It was a well known quality supplier of fasteners in Norway who adopted these cross bit patterns. I’ve later seen Spax at Bauhaus who has Torx with round tip that extends deeper into the screw head. Very similar, so it might be of German origin.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #46 on:** January 09, 2021, 07:06 PM »

coen, I'm just the opposite. I absolutely hate Torx and everything about them.
Give me Robertson (square) or hex any time, Posidrive after that. Phillips is the devil and slotted does not mix with power drivers. It's marginal even hand driven.
Torx has been an issue with me as far back as the late 70s when Jeep started using them. The screw heads were too soft and the driver bits would chew them up or the bits would be so hard they snapped off, usually the broken part ended up in the fastener.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #47 on:** January 09, 2021, 10:59 PM »

Square had it's time in the 90s-00s, but was quickly taken over by torx. Now you see few screws in stores with them, where 20 years ago, everything that wasn't Philips was square. The invention of cordless impact drivers have made torx a requirement. Square drive and impact drivers is not a good result.

Square is better than Philips, but they deform way to easy, not enough contact points (4 vs 6). I'm glad to see them go away, have bits getting stuck in the end of screws gets old. They are nice in electrical (over philips), but the deforming is even worse, such as screws in ground and neutral bar, real easy to start to tear them out.

I suspect the random usage of Pozi in some electrical stuff is a test to see how people respond to it. Electrical world looks to be the experimental land for new screw drive types. Some of the random mess in electrical stuff. Most folks I have found have no idea about Pozi, they just see everything as Philips, even if it's pozi or JIS. Pozi is all over in IKEA stuff, folks just don't notice it's not philips.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #48 on:** January 09, 2021, 11:57 PM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 09, 2021, 03:31 PM

Quote from: Coen on January 09, 2021, 01:12 PM

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time. Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips. But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.

OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work. But "having to go online" perish the thought!

Both Wera and Wiha make square drive screwdrivers and they even make them in insulated for electrical work.

Seth

kevinculle · « **Reply #49 on:** January 10, 2021, 08:38 AM »

Torx has been around a lot longer than you might realize. In the early 1970s I was a young engineer at GM working in the Fastener Engineering Dept. and Textron reps were then touting the Torx drive recess which they had developed in the late 1960s and patented in 1971. It is a superior system but at that time it carried a moderate incremental cost and we bought common fasteners in lots of tens of millions per month. So it has taken them 50 years to make significant progress in displacing the completely inferior slotted and Phillips drives and they seem to be displacing other forms like square recess. With something as ubiquitous as threaded fasteners change is always gradual and evolutionary.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #50 on:** January 10, 2021, 09:12 AM »

What held back torx was the patents textron had on them. Once those expired, their usage began to take off. Now everyone make them.

GM was a heavy early user of them. The downside was they faced the same issue so many things face, they were different from what folks were use to, and folks didn't have the tools, so they decided to hate them. Now everyone is so used to them and tools are common, no one thinks much of them.

DeformedTree · « **Reply #51 on:** January 10, 2021, 09:23 AM »

Quote from: SRSemenza on January 09, 2021, 11:57 PM

OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work. But "having to go online" parish the thought!

Why are you scoffing at this? If people find they need a tool, they need it now. It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance. When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now. If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue. Philips destroys pozis pretty easy. Having to go online for a basic tool is downright silly, and part of the problem.

I have no real issue with Pozi, it just needs to get thru the chicken-egg issue and have stores carry them more, and have people become more aware of them.

Cheese · « **Reply #52 on:** January 10, 2021, 10:33 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 10, 2021, 09:23 AM

If people find they need a tool, they need it now. It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance. When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now. If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue.

Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches. Well that bike is now down until Monday evening at the earliest because Sears doesn't sell Whitworth and the only other sources are Snap-on or MAC Tools and that's providing they have the Whitworth items on the truck.

If every fastener goes the Torx route...I'm a happy guy.

Square drive are a nuisance and I only use them on Spax fasteners because the Philips alternative is an even larger nuisance.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #53 on:** January 10, 2021, 11:17 AM »

I work in a commercial cabinet shop and with the exception of hardware that usually takes Pozi2 or Phillips2, everything else is done with Robertson2 or the combo ones that are "supposed to" be compatible with R2 and P2, but they don't do so well with P2.....which sucks to begin with.
We buy them in bulk, something like 30 or 40 pound boxes. They are not an off the shelf thing at the local big box retailers though. Torx is slowly taking over there for the DIY market. They are better for the average guy who now drives screws with power tools, but in the grand scheme of things, that's fairly recent.
For driving by hand, in a homeowner situation, phillips or slotted is still more common. I would bet that the average guy doesn't even own a dedicated hand driver for Torx screws. He would have to use an insert bit in a 1/4" driver handle, but you can bet on a a Phillips or two and a slotted driver too.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #54 on:** January 10, 2021, 11:26 AM »

Quote from: DeformedTree on January 10, 2021, 09:23 AM

Quote from: SRSemenza on January 09, 2021, 11:57 PM

OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work. But "having to go online" perish the thought!

Why are you scoffing at this? If people find they need a tool, they need it now. It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance. When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now. If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue. Philips destroys pozis pretty easy. Having to go online for a basic tool is downright silly, and part of the problem.

I have no real issue with Pozi, it just needs to get thru the chicken-egg issue and have stores carry them more, and have people become more aware of them.

Below is all within the context of use in the USA.

Never said Phillips was a good replacement for a Pozi. But it will work.

Yes, chicken and egg. But I would not consider a Pozidrive screwdriver to be a basic tool in the US. If someone is running into Pozi screws on a regular basis for something that really matters that a Phillips not be used, then they are doing some type of work or project in which they should already have multiple Pozi drivers. No different than any other specialty tool.

For the occasional run in with a Pozi screw (such as assembling a new lawn chair or what ever) there is a difference between need to do it now and, want to do it now.

As far as internet buying goes ..................... it just seemed that you thought it was ridiculous to have to buy something online. As if that was an abnormal thing to do. But perhaps I was reading into what you wrote which is easy to do on the internet. Sorry.

Seth

Svar · « **Reply #55 on:** January 10, 2021, 01:09 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 10, 2021, 10:33 AM

Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches.

Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #56 on:** January 10, 2021, 01:11 PM »

Quote from: Svar on January 10, 2021, 01:09 PM

Quote from: Cheese on January 10, 2021, 10:33 AM
Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches.
Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.

Sidecar.

Seth

notenoughcash · « **Reply #57 on:** January 10, 2021, 02:06 PM »

as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop. best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....

Cheese · « **Reply #58 on:** January 10, 2021, 03:35 PM »

Quote from: Svar on January 10, 2021, 01:09 PM

Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.

Very funny Svar...try mid 60's to mid 70's in the 20th century. On top of that, British bikes in the mid 80's also had the additional curse of being fitted with some metric fasteners. So then a person needed 3 completely different sets of wrenches and sockets to service those beasts. No wonder the sales dropped off so precipitously...

DeformedTree · « **Reply #59 on:** January 10, 2021, 09:26 PM »

Quote from: Cheese on January 10, 2021, 10:33 AM

Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches. Well that bike is now down until Monday evening at the earliest because Sears doesn't sell Whitworth and the only other sources are Snap-on or MAC Tools and that's providing they have the Whitworth items on the truck.

If every fastener goes the Torx route...I'm a happy guy.

Square drive are a nuisance and I only use them on Spax fasteners because the Philips alternative is an even larger nuisance.

There are square drive Spax? Only ever seen torx and philips. What annoys me is when you get to the smaller screws, they are philips only.

Of course your sears still being open is even a bigger surprise. I did hit the tool department on the one near me before it's death hard. I have all the torx and external torx impact bits I will ever near. Was never a Sears fan, but they did have good tool options with good store hours.