Author Topic: When did this happen?  (Read 12652 times)

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Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 755
When did this happen?
« on: April 21, 2018, 09:51 PM »


 [big grin]

PS - Just sell the centrotec shorties separately already, willyuh? 

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline copcarcollector

  • Posts: 1455
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2018, 10:19 PM »
I have seen this set shown and mentioned on a Facebook group based in the uk .One dealer there said it was sold out before he had a chance to order them. I did see it on usa based amazon...

Offline Scorpion

  • Posts: 587
When did this happen?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2018, 10:28 PM »
Edit: Model SYS-CE
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 10:45 PM by Scorpion »

Offline Ves

  • Posts: 35
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2018, 11:02 PM »
Festool SYS-CE MINI 1 TL TRA Centrotec Bit Set | Limited Edition | 203817

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 620
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2018, 12:04 AM »
Looks like there is one left on Amazon.


Offline Cochese

  • Posts: 332
    • The 144 Workshop
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2018, 10:26 AM »
I want that insert.

Offline Peter Durand

  • Posts: 208
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2018, 10:34 AM »
I want that insert.

Available at your local Festool dealer. That is where I got mine.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2333
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2018, 12:54 PM »
(Attachment Link)

 [big grin]

PS - Just sell the centrotec shorties separately already, willyuh?
. I like those shorter length Bits. Nice to have a shorter bit for some applications that is in between the standard AND the stubbies
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 741
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2018, 01:01 PM »
The item in the picture is not a Festool product, but something cobbled together from the newly launched MiniSystainer with see-thru top (for sale for around 20 usd), an existing insert (I think Tanos sells these) and sundry Centrotec items. Whoever sells these makes a very nice profit.
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · DTS 400 · ETS EC 125 w 150 pad · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer: A3 31 Silent Power · N4400 · HS950 | TaigaTools: VacPods Pro Set
On order: Surfix Set + CTL SYS with CT-VA-20

Offline live4ever

  • Posts: 835
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2018, 01:17 PM »
The item in the picture is not a Festool product, but something cobbled together from the newly launched MiniSystainer with see-thru top (for sale for around 20 usd), an existing insert (I think Tanos sells these) and sundry Centrotec items. Whoever sells these makes a very nice profit.

You sure?
https://www.festool.co.uk/products/systainer,-sortainer-and-systainer-port/systainer/203817---sys-ce-mini-1-tl-tra#Overview
Current systainer to productivity ratio:  very high

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 741
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2018, 02:09 PM »
Not so sure anymore (I did my research on German sites, so…). Sorry!
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · DTS 400 · ETS EC 125 w 150 pad · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer: A3 31 Silent Power · N4400 · HS950 | TaigaTools: VacPods Pro Set
On order: Surfix Set + CTL SYS with CT-VA-20

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 620
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2018, 04:37 PM »
The Amazon listing shown above and the one that I saw yesterday shows Festool as the provider. I doubt a third party putting together their own kits could show it as sold by Festool. At least I hope not!

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1548
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2018, 07:33 PM »
It's definitely a Festool product. It was featured in one of their newsletters a couple of weeks ago.

What is noteworthy beside this set itself, is the transparent lid insert. It's available separately (at least in Germany) and will work with all mini Systainers: Tanos No.: 80590802. Placed in the lid of your Mini-Systainer it then covers the black sorting style (multiple compartment) inserts closely/firmly and ensures that everything stays sorted even when the Mini-Systainer tumbles/ is turned upside down. Being transparent it won't obstruct the view into closed Mini-Systainers that already have the transparent lid.


Kind regards,
Oliver

Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline ear3

  • Posts: 4193
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2018, 10:03 PM »
$185?! Surely there must be some more accessories hiding underneath that top level.
Kapex KS 120 w/UG Cart and Extensions • CXS Set • T 18+3 w/Centrotec Installer's Set • PDC 18/4 • TID 18 • TS 75 • TSC 55 • HKC 55 w/250, 420 and 670 FSK rails • Carvex 420 w/Accessory Kit • Domino 500 Set • Domino 700 XL • OF 2200 w/Base Accessory Kit • OF 1400 • OF 1010 • MFK 700 EQ Set • LR 32 • MFS 400 w/2000, 1000, and 700 extensions • Rotex 90 • Rotex 150 • LS 130 • ETS-EC 150/5 • ETS-EC 150/3 • Pro 5 LTD • RTS 400 • RAS 115.04 • RS 2 • HL 850 • Vecturo OS 400 • AGC 18-115 • CT 26 w/BT module • CT Sys w/Long-Life Bag • CT-VA 20 • MFT/3 • STM 1800

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 620
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2018, 11:05 PM »
What’s strange (and / or interesting) is that two days ago I looked up this set up on Amazon and the price was $160 and it said that there were only two left. I purchased one. The next day, after reading this thread , I searched Amazon for it again. This time it told me that the price was $185 and that there were only two left. Let the conspiracy theories begin😊.

Offline Bohdan

  • Posts: 998
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 01:15 AM »
What’s strange (and / or interesting) is that two days ago I looked up this set up on Amazon and the price was $160 and it said that there were only two left. I purchased one. The next day, after reading this thread , I searched Amazon for it again. This time it told me that the price was $185 and that there were only two left. Let the conspiracy theories begin😊.

You created a demand for the product and Amazon answered by uping the price.  [big grin]  [big grin]

Offline Alanbach

  • Posts: 620
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 01:19 AM »
Yes maybe but it makes me wonder what the price was “at the beginning”. Actually I found it on Festool UK and the $160 was approximately equal to that price, once converted into USD.

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2333
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2018, 10:29 AM »
$185?! Surely there must be some more accessories hiding underneath that top level.
  Was there another view with the Top Tray removed so you can see what might be underneath?   [blink]
 
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline jobsworth

  • Posts: 6565
  • Festool Baby.....
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2018, 11:46 AM »
I think thats it after all it is main systainer. I like the kit.

But dont have $185 right now.

But thats a good idea on buying a insert for a mini and make my own kit.

The mini is a lot easier to store and take out of drawers etc then a full blown Installers kit.

They do make a smaller kit no stubby bits but a selection of bits. I have one . Havnt used it much but I will now
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:52 AM by jobsworth »

Offline ben_r_

  • Posts: 1326
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2018, 12:20 PM »
Wow... yet another example that makes me glad I never bought into the Centrotec system.
If at first you don't succeed, redefine success!

Offline MGB

  • Posts: 111
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2018, 10:14 PM »
Wow... yet another example that makes me glad I never bought into the Centrotec system.

Ehh, I've got all I need

#1/#2 robbies
#2 Philips
#2 Pozidrive

So not too painful considering they're very nice long lasting bits. The dealer was trying to push an installers kit on me, screw that (pun intended).

Offline miles2212

  • Posts: 11
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2018, 02:16 AM »
I ordered mine on Sunday from Kelvin Power Tools in Scotland and it turned up yesterday.

Offline Gregor

  • Posts: 1747
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2018, 03:35 AM »
I think deploying an attic lid onto the systainer with the drill (to hold spares, possibly in the bit holders that fit there) and having the most needed bit types at hand on the magnet holder of the tool is superior - and cheaper.

Offline Mario Turcot

  • Posts: 1257
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2018, 07:37 AM »
I think deploying an attic lid onto the systainer with the drill (to hold spares, possibly in the bit holders that fit there) and having the most needed bit types at hand on the magnet holder of the tool is superior - and cheaper.

You just gave away the next marketing strategy   [eek]

Mario
Mario

Offline grobkuschelig

  • Posts: 681
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2018, 08:46 AM »
Street Price in Germany is 85€ for the Sys-mini CE.
But I also think that the lid inserts are better Value.

If someone made 50mm centrotecs as a good set, that would be nice.
But even with the mini, you only get one each of the 50mm, which makes it not worth it, from my point of view..

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1849
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2018, 12:50 PM »
$185?! Surely there must be some more accessories hiding underneath that top level.

Yes, the rest is filled with special FT N2 anti-oxidizing gas.  [wink]
But once you open the case it will escape.  [eek]
Replacement gas is available at reasonable (as FT goes) prices.  [big grin]
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Trosey

  • Posts: 86
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2018, 02:36 PM »
$185?! Surely there must be some more accessories hiding underneath that top level.

Yes, the rest is filled with special FT N2 anti-oxidizing gas.  [wink]
But once you open the case it will escape.  [eek]
Replacement gas is available at reasonable (as FT goes) prices.  [big grin]

HF cosmoline gas comes with a lifetime odor.

HTH

Offline leakyroof

  • Posts: 2333
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2018, 03:07 PM »
$185?! Surely there must be some more accessories hiding underneath that top level.

Yes, the rest is filled with special FT N2 anti-oxidizing gas.  [wink]
But once you open the case it will escape.  [eek]
Replacement gas is available at reasonable (as FT goes) prices.  [big grin]

HF cosmoline gas comes with a lifetime odor.

HTH
. Only a TRUE Harbor Freight shopper would know this.... [poke]
 It IS a distinctive smell, isn’t it.... [wink]
Not as many Sanders as PA Floor guy.....

Offline yetihunter

  • Posts: 755
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2018, 11:52 PM »
Street Price in Germany is 85€ for the Sys-mini CE.
But I also think that the lid inserts are better Value.

If someone made 50mm centrotecs as a good set, that would be nice.
But even with the mini, you only get one each of the 50mm, which makes it not worth it, from my point of view..

They used to sell the stubbies in a lid insert.  At least a Protool version.
Mine deformed after one or two uses though.  They were the old gold colored version with a hardness similar to clay or pewter.  To be honest, 75mm ones would be my cats meow.  100 is usually too long and using the 50's, I concede: just a little too short.   Call the doctor, I've got a goldilocks disorder.

These sets are getting tiresome.  Surely it can't be cost effective to order small lots of this and that.   Shout out to Atlas Machinery and Snappy for preventing me from having to buy a whole kit just for a pair of Robertson bits. 😄




Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1548
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #30 on: January 08, 2021, 10:44 PM »
The 50mm CE bits will be available in sets of two as spares - just like it should be with consumables.




Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Coen

  • Posts: 668
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #31 on: January 08, 2021, 11:39 PM »
Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1548
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2021, 12:01 AM »
When that set was originally released it was either the non-locking, or the (troubled) old style locking bit holder. The BHS 60 wasn't available at that time.

I can't complain about the Festool bits (50 and 100 mm CE) - and I can actually compare them to PB Swiss equivalents.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 05:27 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7056
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2021, 03:03 AM »
Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

I prefer the non-locking bitholders, especially the long 150 mm one is used a lot here. I don't like the old locking bitholder at all. Haven't had the chance to try the new one yet.

What's wrong with the silver bits? Haven't had the chance to try them yet either. I keep running into cheap offers for the gold 100 mm bits so I've been buying those.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2021, 05:26 AM »
I’d like a 50mm set, but why does FT ignore hex bits and a few slotted? ..amongst other.. [mad]
I’ve got a set of the longer ones, but keep reaching for my older sets as these cover all screws.

So, the standard bit holder, both the BH 60 and the magnetic only is the most used. I’d surely like longer bits for better reach in deep holes and so forth. There the Centrotec would be my favourite instead of using long reach standard bit holders.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1548
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2021, 05:34 AM »
Festool is ahead of time. Not too soon from now, only oldtimers like us will even know what a slotted screw is - and how it is used. lol. ;)

Speaking of hex, I've wondered about that as well. But I guess, it's because its inseparably linked to large scale production furniture, instead of artisanal/ handcrafted furniture.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7056
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2021, 05:40 AM »
Festool is ahead of time. Not too soon from now, only oldtimers like us will even know what a slotted screw is - and how it is used. lol. ;)

Hmm, if you work on older houses and furniture you constantly find those older fasteners. It will take centuries before those are all gone. In the mean time, we will need those dirty rotten old slotted bits and it is very short sighted of Festool to think torx is the only thing that matters now.

On an average workday I can use 4 different types of bits (PZ, PH, Tor, Slot) in various sizes, and I all need them at hand in centrotec.

Offline six-point socket II

  • Posts: 1548
  • formerly @the_black_tie_diyer
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2021, 05:47 AM »
Please read the language of smileys correctly.  [tongue]  [big grin]

I know exactly what it's like to take a kitchen apart with 5, 6 maybe 8 different types of fasteners/screws used - sometimes on one cabinet. You won't meet me without an assortment of slotted, hex, square, PH, PZ, TX, +- (combination type) bits ...

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Bert Vanderveen

  • Posts: 741
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2021, 05:48 AM »
Slotted screws and powered screwdrivers are not a great combo. Maybe Festool tries to keep our language while (un)screwing clean…
Cheers, Bert Vanderveen

TS55 · TS55R · OF1010 · DF500 · MFT/3 + TSB1-MW 1000 + VL + CMS TS55 + CMS PS300 + LA-CS 70/CMS · CTL Midi · RTS400 · 2 x CXS Li 1,5 · T15+3 Li 4,2 · TI15 Impact Li 4,2 · Centrotec Sets 2008 + 2015 · PSB300 · LR32-SYS · RO150 · KS120 · 2 x MFK700 · RO90 · OFK700 · BS75 · OFK500 · OF2200 · CMS-GE · Vecturo 18 Li · TID 18 · TKS 80 EBS-Set · DTS 400 · ETS EC 125 w 150 pad · … | Mirka 1230L P&C | Hammer: A3 31 Silent Power · N4400 · HS950 | TaigaTools: VacPods Pro Set
On order: Surfix Set + CTL SYS with CT-VA-20

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2021, 05:48 AM »
Yup, and I wonder how many installers, fitters that do not fit pre-fabricated furniture and cabinets.. every week [huh] Even as Alex says, coming cross when dismantling.
For many visible screws, the slotted and sometimes hex looks better. Most brass screws looks best with slotted head. These heads benefit from the sure fit of Centrotec.. so come on Festool!
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Alex

  • Posts: 7056
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2021, 06:20 AM »
Please read the language of smileys correctly.  [tongue]  [big grin]

I know exactly what it's like to take a kitchen apart with 5, 6 maybe 8 different types of fasteners/screws used - sometimes on one cabinet. You won't meet me without an assortment of slotted, hex, square, PH, PZ, TX, +- (combination type) bits ...

Kind regards,
Oliver

I know you're very well outiftted Oliver.  [smile]

Now I'd like Festool to take your German Gründlichkeit for example.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 668
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2021, 01:12 PM »
Shame of that lousy non-locking bitholder in the set.

Are the Festool gray bits still as lousy as 8 years ago, or did they improve? Their gold colored bits were nice (discountinued now), the gray ones... The fit on the PZ bits was horrible.

I prefer the non-locking bitholders, especially the long 150 mm one is used a lot here. I don't like the old locking bitholder at all. Haven't had the chance to try the new one yet.

What's wrong with the silver bits? Haven't had the chance to try them yet either. I keep running into cheap offers for the gold 100 mm bits so I've been buying those.

Silver? They are more gray.

The fit of the gray PZ bits are horrible. Immediate camout, contrary to the golden bits that fit quite well and dont cam out as easily.

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1076
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2021, 03:31 PM »

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time.  Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips.  But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a  philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2021, 04:17 PM »

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time.  Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips.  But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a  philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.

Actually, they tried square drive here, but was soon discarded. There where also a “bridge” between Philips and square, they where very good, but demanded very wide screw heads and disappeared as quickly as they came. After that, it’s Torx or Pozidrive. Pozidrive are very good, miles better than Philips. Philips now nearly only exists in drywall screws (thanks for that). I’d be happy to see Philips gone.
What I don’t get, is the lack of availability of Pozidrive in the US? We’re drowning in fasteners and tools carrying Pozidrive in Europe. But then again, square is nowhere to be seen here anymore. I still have the bits, just in case. Pozidrive is a good fit, and sits well even if the bit is at a slight angle, Torx is sometimes to rigid, but straight in they are good.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8017
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2021, 05:02 PM »
There where also a “bridge” between Philips and square, they where very good, but demanded very wide screw heads and disappeared as quickly as they came.

The “bridge” screw I’m familiar with is Spax and I thought for some reason they were German.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #45 on: January 09, 2021, 06:26 PM »
That might well be right, Cheese. It was a well known quality supplier of fasteners in Norway who adopted these cross bit patterns. I’ve later seen Spax at Bauhaus who has Torx with round tip that extends deeper into the screw head. Very similar, so it might be of German origin.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 135
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #46 on: January 09, 2021, 07:06 PM »
coen, I'm just the opposite. I absolutely hate Torx and everything about them.
Give me Robertson (square) or hex any time, Posidrive after that. Phillips is the devil and slotted does not mix with power drivers. It's marginal even hand driven.
Torx has been an issue with me as far back as the late 70s when Jeep started using them. The screw heads were too soft and the driver bits would chew them up or the bits would be so hard they snapped off, usually the broken part ended up in the fastener.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700
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CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1076
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #47 on: January 09, 2021, 10:59 PM »
Square had it's time in the 90s-00s, but was quickly taken over by torx.  Now you see few screws in stores with them, where 20 years ago, everything that wasn't Philips was square. The invention of cordless impact drivers have made torx a requirement. Square drive and impact drivers is not a good result.

Square is better than Philips, but they deform way to easy, not enough contact points (4 vs 6). I'm glad to see them go away, have bits getting stuck in the end of screws gets old. They are nice in electrical (over philips), but the deforming is even worse, such as screws in ground and neutral bar, real easy to start to tear them out.

I suspect the random usage of Pozi in some electrical stuff is a test to see how people respond to it. Electrical world looks to be the experimental land for new screw drive types. Some of the random mess in electrical stuff. Most folks I have found have no idea about Pozi, they just see everything as Philips, even if it's pozi or JIS.  Pozi is all over in IKEA stuff, folks just don't notice it's not philips.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #48 on: January 09, 2021, 11:57 PM »

Personally I like everything Torx. Can't wait for all the rest to go extinct.

Agree, but some stuff we will be stuck with for a long time.  Electrical world in the US has almost fully gone square drive, which is ok, and way better than philips.  But you now have a mix, some things have torx, some things hex, and now you tend to come across some electrical stuff with Pozi, which gets very annoying as the companies that make tools for wiring don't make Pozi screw drivers. Pozi screw drivers don't exist in stores, you have to go online.

Simple wiring task can easily involve more than one size flat, a  philips, a square drive, maybe a hex or torque on something in the panel, and now sometimes a pozi on some devices. They also make some mutant screw drivers like a hybrid of square and philips.

Of course if you go and try and buy some fancy screw drivers from Europe, you won't be able to get a square drive.


     OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work.  But  "having to go online"  perish the thought!  [blink]

    Both Wera and Wiha  make square drive screwdrivers and they even make them in insulated for electrical work.

Seth
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 10:59 AM by SRSemenza »

Offline kevinculle

  • Posts: 402
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #49 on: January 10, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Torx has been around a lot longer than you might realize.  In the early 1970s I was a young engineer at GM working in the Fastener Engineering Dept. and Textron reps were then touting the Torx drive recess which they had developed in the late 1960s and patented in 1971.  It is a superior system but at that time it carried a moderate incremental cost and we bought common fasteners in lots of tens of millions per month.  So it has taken them 50 years to make significant progress in displacing the completely inferior slotted and Phillips drives and they seem to be displacing other forms like square recess.  With something as ubiquitous as threaded fasteners change is always gradual and evolutionary.

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2021, 09:12 AM »
What held back torx was the patents textron had on them.  Once those expired, their usage began to take off.  Now everyone make them.

GM was a heavy early user of them. The downside was they faced the same issue so many things face, they were different from what folks were use to, and folks didn't have the tools, so they decided to hate them. Now everyone is so used to them and tools are common, no one thinks much of them.


Offline DeformedTree

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2021, 09:23 AM »

      OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work.  But  "having to go online"  parish the thought!  [blink]


Why are you scoffing at this? If people find they need a tool, they need it now.  It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance.  When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now.  If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue.  Philips destroys pozis pretty easy. Having to go online for a basic tool is downright silly, and part of the problem.

I have no real issue with Pozi, it just needs to get thru the chicken-egg issue and have stores carry them more, and have people become more aware of them.

Online Cheese

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2021, 10:33 AM »

If people find they need a tool, they need it now.  It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance.  When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now.  If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue. 


Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches. Well that bike is now down until Monday evening at the earliest because Sears doesn't sell Whitworth and the only other sources are Snap-on or MAC Tools and that's providing they have the Whitworth items on the truck.
 
If every fastener goes the Torx route...I'm a happy guy.  [big grin] 

Square drive are a nuisance and I only use them on Spax fasteners because the Philips alternative is an even larger nuisance.  [mad]

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 135
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2021, 11:17 AM »
I work in a commercial cabinet shop and with the exception of hardware that usually takes Pozi2 or Phillips2, everything else is done with Robertson2 or the combo ones that are "supposed to" be compatible with R2 and P2, but they don't do so well with P2.....which sucks to begin with.
We buy them in bulk, something like 30 or 40 pound boxes. They are not an off the shelf thing at the local big box retailers though. Torx is slowly taking over there for the DIY market. They are better for the average guy who now drives screws with power tools, but in the grand scheme of things, that's fairly recent.
For driving by hand, in a homeowner situation, phillips or slotted is still more common. I would bet that the average guy doesn't even own a dedicated hand driver for Torx screws. He would have to use an insert bit in a 1/4" driver handle, but you can bet on a a Phillips or two and a slotted driver too.
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Offline SRSemenza

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2021, 11:26 AM »

      OK, maybe Pozi screwdrivers are not commonly available in stores in the USA so that could be an issue in a 'must have one now situation'. Then again, in a pinch a Phillips will work. Not as well, but it will work.  But  "having to go online"  perish the thought!  [blink]


Why are you scoffing at this? If people find they need a tool, they need it now.  It's not like people get many opportunities to know all the tools a task will require in advance.  When a odd screw shows up, it's normally a surprise and a person needs a tool now.  If they are lucky, they live close to some stores that have tools, if they then find out it's something no one carries, that is an issue.  Philips destroys pozis pretty easy. Having to go online for a basic tool is downright silly, and part of the problem.

I have no real issue with Pozi, it just needs to get thru the chicken-egg issue and have stores carry them more, and have people become more aware of them.


                        Below is all within the context of use in the USA.

Never said Phillips was a good replacement for a Pozi. But it will work.

Yes, chicken and egg. But I would not consider a Pozidrive screwdriver to be a basic tool in the US. If someone is running into Pozi screws on a regular basis for something that really matters that a Phillips not be used, then they are doing some type of work or project in which they should already have multiple Pozi drivers. No different than any other specialty tool.

For the occasional run in with a Pozi screw (such as assembling a new lawn chair or what ever) there is a difference between need to do it now and, want to do it now.

As far as internet buying goes .....................  it just seemed that you thought it was ridiculous to have to buy something online. As if that was an abnormal thing to do. But perhaps I was reading into what you wrote which is easy to do on the internet. Sorry.


Seth

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 02:11 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2302
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2021, 01:09 PM »
Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches.
Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.  [poke]

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #56 on: January 10, 2021, 01:11 PM »
Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches.
Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.  [poke]

   Sidecar.   [smile]


Seth
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 02:12 PM by SRSemenza »

Offline notenoughcash

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #57 on: January 10, 2021, 02:06 PM »
as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop.  best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....
'Ear all, see all, say nowt; Eat all, sup all, pay nowt; And if ivver tha does owt fer nowt – Allus do it fer thissen.

Online Cheese

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #58 on: January 10, 2021, 03:35 PM »

Whitworth? Was you motorcycle made in 1860 or something? Must be difficult maintaining the balance while shoveling coal.  [poke]


Very funny Svar...try mid 60's to mid 70's in the 20th century. On top of that, British bikes in the mid 80's also had the additional curse of being fitted with some metric fasteners. So then a person needed 3 completely different sets of wrenches and sockets to service those beasts. No wonder the sales dropped off so precipitously... [eek]

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #59 on: January 10, 2021, 09:26 PM »

Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches. Well that bike is now down until Monday evening at the earliest because Sears doesn't sell Whitworth and the only other sources are Snap-on or MAC Tools and that's providing they have the Whitworth items on the truck.
 
If every fastener goes the Torx route...I'm a happy guy.  [big grin] 

Square drive are a nuisance and I only use them on Spax fasteners because the Philips alternative is an even larger nuisance.  [mad]

There are square drive Spax?  Only ever seen torx and philips.  What annoys me is when you get to the smaller screws, they are philips only.

Of course your sears still being open is even a bigger surprise.  I did hit the tool department on the one near me before it's death hard. I have all the torx and external torx impact bits I will ever near.  Was never a Sears fan, but they did have good tool options with good store hours.

Offline Coen

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2021, 06:32 PM »

Ya, like working on a British motorcycle on a Friday night and finding you suddenly need a couple of Whitworth wrenches. Well that bike is now down until Monday evening at the earliest because Sears doesn't sell Whitworth and the only other sources are Snap-on or MAC Tools and that's providing they have the Whitworth items on the truck.
 
If every fastener goes the Torx route...I'm a happy guy.  [big grin] 

Square drive are a nuisance and I only use them on Spax fasteners because the Philips alternative is an even larger nuisance.  [mad]

There are square drive Spax?  Only ever seen torx and philips.  What annoys me is when you get to the smaller screws, they are philips only.

Of course your sears still being open is even a bigger surprise.  I did hit the tool department on the one near me before it's death hard. I have all the torx and external torx impact bits I will ever near.  Was never a Sears fan, but they did have good tool options with good store hours.

There are Spax with phillips?

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Offline Coen

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2021, 10:45 PM »
as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop.  best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....

ABB here sells the flush mounted box (if that is the right word?) with TX/SL combiscrew  [big grin]
This thing;
https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/nl/producten/verdelers/installatiedozen/inbouwdozen/inbouwdozen/md-4050

Their ceilingboxes (the lids) come with PZ/SL screw

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2021, 11:04 PM »

There are square drive Spax?  Only ever seen torx and philips.  What annoys me is when you get to the smaller screws, they are philips only.

Of course your sears still being open is even a bigger surprise.  I did hit the tool department on the one near me before it's death hard. I have all the torx and external torx impact bits I will ever near.  Was never a Sears fan, but they did have good tool options with good store hours.

There are Spax with phillips?

Oh no, I just went down the rabbit hole with this one.

So looking at the small ones, like #6, #8 screws that are 3/4-1" long and such, have combo square/philips heads.  Some are #2 both, others #2 Philips with #1 square.

Looking at the one Philips box of bigger screws I have, they are "uni-drive", which is SPAX own thing.  It doesn't have the pozi drive markings. And from the website looks to be just #2 philips or square drive.  Funny thing is there renderings show the Pozi tick marks.  A #2 pozi fits ok-ish, but not like a #Philips. Box comes with a philips bit.  Home depot sells them as being philips/square combo drives.

Funny the website doesn't list Philips as a drive option.  They sell 1 Pozi screw in the US.  And looks like they do have square, just never seen them, it too looks to be 1 model of screw.

Also interesting is the boxes for Torx say  T25 Torx    plus  Bit included.    In looking at that now, and reading it differently, I think they are trying to say T25 Torx Plus,   not "Plus a bit".  Which might explain the consumption of torx bits as Milwaukee and dewalt bits for impact drivers are just regular torx.

I'll say this, kill off combo drive screws,  just makes a mess, and does no one drive well.  I kinda wonder now if they are making some screw that is a bit pozi a bit philips and letting it be that.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8017
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #63 on: January 12, 2021, 01:21 AM »
Yes @DeformedTree and yes @Coen ...

as I mentioned earlier, the only time I advocate the use of square drive tooling is when using it as a substitution for Phillips tooling. One has to admit this is a creative counterpoint to being forced to use Phillips tooling.  [smile]  The square drives work quite well for these fasteners, certainly better than the Phillips alternative.

Still...I'd prefer Torx.  [big grin]

Here's a shot of some Spax screws, from L to R the drives required are:
#3 Sq or #3 Phillips
#2 Sq or #2 Phillips
#1 Sq or #2 Phillips



« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 01:30 AM by Cheese »

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 668
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #64 on: January 12, 2021, 02:06 AM »
Aha

Everything from Spax here is either Torx or Pozidrive. They seem to have some variant on Torx too, with a round hole in the center of the screw.

Anyway, I use Woodies, they are 'just Torx' (some also available in Pozidrive btw).

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #65 on: January 12, 2021, 04:56 AM »
Wow, never seen these before. Must be US specific? Very interesting, thanks for the picture!

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Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 68
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #66 on: January 12, 2021, 05:26 AM »
as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop.  best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....

ABB here sells the flush mounted box (if that is the right word?) with TX/SL combiscrew  [big grin]
This thing;
https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/nl/producten/verdelers/installatiedozen/inbouwdozen/inbouwdozen/md-4050

Their ceilingboxes (the lids) come with PZ/SL screw

seen the wera screwdrivers but not the actual scres

have encountered pozi/slot though

PITA.....
'Ear all, see all, say nowt; Eat all, sup all, pay nowt; And if ivver tha does owt fer nowt – Allus do it fer thissen.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 668
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #67 on: January 12, 2021, 07:00 AM »
as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop.  best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....

ABB here sells the flush mounted box (if that is the right word?) with TX/SL combiscrew  [big grin]
This thing;
https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/nl/producten/verdelers/installatiedozen/inbouwdozen/inbouwdozen/md-4050

Their ceilingboxes (the lids) come with PZ/SL screw

seen the wera screwdrivers but not the actual scres

have encountered pozi/slot though

PITA.....

Wera has TX/SL combi screwdrivers?  [eek]

I do know lots of brands carry PZ/SL combis, they are often used in miniature circuit breakers and compotents for residential electrical panels in general.

Offline notenoughcash

  • Posts: 68
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2021, 07:42 AM »
as a brit i use pozi philips sloted and torx on a reguarlar basis

torx in the workshop.  best driver head ever

pozi on most general use building site screws

philips for some electrical aplications and drywall

and sloted (absolute >family friendly<) rest of electrical and old screws that have been stuck in the wall since the stone age....

ABB here sells the flush mounted box (if that is the right word?) with TX/SL combiscrew  [big grin]
This thing;
https://new.abb.com/low-voltage/nl/producten/verdelers/installatiedozen/inbouwdozen/inbouwdozen/md-4050

Their ceilingboxes (the lids) come with PZ/SL screw

seen the wera screwdrivers but not the actual scres

have encountered pozi/slot though

PITA.....

Wera has TX/SL combi screwdrivers?  [eek]

I do know lots of brands carry PZ/SL combis, they are often used in miniature circuit breakers and compotents for residential electrical panels in general.

yup.

or they did 2 or 3 years ago.

cant find them now, but will post a link when i do
'Ear all, see all, say nowt; Eat all, sup all, pay nowt; And if ivver tha does owt fer nowt – Allus do it fer thissen.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2021, 07:53 AM »
Yes @DeformedTree and yes @Coen ...

as I mentioned earlier, the only time I advocate the use of square drive tooling is when using it as a substitution for Phillips tooling. One has to admit this is a creative counterpoint to being forced to use Phillips tooling.  [smile]  The square drives work quite well for these fasteners, certainly better than the Phillips alternative.

Still...I'd prefer Torx.  [big grin]

Here's a shot of some Spax screws, from L to R the drives required are:
#3 Sq or #3 Phillips
#2 Sq or #2 Phillips
#1 Sq or #2 Phillips

(Attachment Link)

Your Spax #3 looks very much the same as the bit and pattern i was referring to...
This is very similar in size to PH3, but the bit almost locks to the screw, on the contrary to PH heads..
What Cheese is referring to as in PH3 or Sq3, is the same screw that these two combined looks like, and is the perfect bit for Spax #3:




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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8017
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #70 on: January 12, 2021, 10:00 AM »
That might well be right, Cheese. It was a well known quality supplier of fasteners in Norway who adopted these cross bit patterns. I’ve later seen Spax at Bauhaus who has Torx with round tip that extends deeper into the screw head. Very similar, so it might be of German origin.

Found this on the website;

SPAX® is a brand of the ALTENLOH, BRINCK & CO. of Ennepetal, Germany, founded in 1823. SPAX® screws were first introduced to the European market in 1967 as a revolutionary line of multi-material construction fasteners. Today, the SPAX® brand represents a broad selection of engineered fasteners for the construction industry, and symbolizes the highest quality fastening solutions. It’s one of the most recognized brands in Europe!

SPAX® Multi-purpose Construction Screws and PowerLags® were introduced to the U.S. market in 1997. They are sold nationwide through leading home improvement centers, hardware and fastener distribution chains, and in a growing number of lumber and building material dealers. Since 2006, SPAX® fasteners marketed in North America are manufactured in the ALTENLOH, BRINCK & CO. U.S., INC. complex in Bryan, Ohio, which is ISO 9001:2015 Certified.


They also own Rodenhouse & TruFast.

The photo of the bit you posted would be perfect for those Spax #3 Sq./#3 Phillips, as every surface of the bit is engaged or driven.


Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1076
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2021, 10:51 AM »
The packaging of spax in the US says "made in USA or Germany".   Which is it?

Like other things, looks like another case of companies modifying a product for a market instead of just having the market adjust to changes.  No reason for them to have no just kept them as is from Europe.  They could have introduced them as torx only and everyone would have been fine.  Similar, no need to make them to US dimensions, which then then dual dimension the package.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 751
Re: When did this happen?
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2021, 01:16 PM »
That might well be right, Cheese. It was a well known quality supplier of fasteners in Norway who adopted these cross bit patterns. I’ve later seen Spax at Bauhaus who has Torx with round tip that extends deeper into the screw head. Very similar, so it might be of German origin.

Found this on the website;

SPAX® is a brand of the ALTENLOH, BRINCK & CO. of Ennepetal, Germany, founded in 1823. SPAX® screws were first introduced to the European market in 1967 as a revolutionary line of multi-material construction fasteners. Today, the SPAX® brand represents a broad selection of engineered fasteners for the construction industry, and symbolizes the highest quality fastening solutions. It’s one of the most recognized brands in Europe!

SPAX® Multi-purpose Construction Screws and PowerLags® were introduced to the U.S. market in 1997. They are sold nationwide through leading home improvement centers, hardware and fastener distribution chains, and in a growing number of lumber and building material dealers. Since 2006, SPAX® fasteners marketed in North America are manufactured in the ALTENLOH, BRINCK & CO. U.S., INC. complex in Bryan, Ohio, which is ISO 9001:2015 Certified.


They also own Rodenhouse & TruFast.

The photo of the bit you posted would be perfect for those Spax #3 Sq./#3 Phillips, as every surface of the bit is engaged or driven.

(Attachment Link)

Exactly Cheese, they did just that - I have very few fasteners left. They where of so called “outside fasteners” - For that use I liked them much better than Torx, you were able to clean out the screw head easily too. The fit was perfect, and these were mine (and many other pro”s) favourite for use with impacts. I remember I gnarled when my supplier said that they were obsolete, in favour of Torx. I bought a few boxes for stock that time [big grin].

These fasteners could very well be licensed from Spax, they were more expensive than the competition, but very good indeed. There were probably pricing that made them change to Torx.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”