Author Topic: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?  (Read 80148 times)

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Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2021, 10:15 AM »
Not that I want this product, but I find it hard to understand the given reason for the discontinuation of this product. Supply chain issues affect all kinds of products including automobiles, and I know of no other products going into retirement with supply chain difficulties, a temporary condition, being stated as the justification. There should be more behind the story, which, of course, we probably won't know in the end.

I mean, they were still selling it in a Classic Systainer, so it's not like they've updated it for a long time.  The owner's manual still shows the original Systainer-mounted pump rather than the stand-alone pump.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was regulatory pressure that required a major re-design that they decided wasn't financially worth it, like the CMS system.

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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1431
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2021, 10:19 AM »
I'm already in a big shop with plenty of random sound going on, so the quiet aspect means nothing to me. The ability to hold small parts, fully exposed on the edges, is attractive though.
Most of what I do is large or oddly shaped.
Edgebanding of typical parts gets done on a machine that costs more than my house. It does straight, simple stuff very quickly, but it cannot do angles or curves. That kind of stuff has to be done by hand.
I do have access to a Cantek portable unit, that can do radius edges, but even that can't do 45 degree clipped corners. However, it only applies the edging, you still have to flush trim it off.
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Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2021, 10:29 AM »
As with any large co. The real reason is the bottom line. I think the VAc sys while its really loved by some is a pretty slow seller.  I remember reading here some people had bought a brand new unit and the mfr. date was already several years old.  This tells me its been sitting on some shelf for years.  The cost vs. reward for the tool is hard to justify for most.  Coupled with increasing hard parts to source it was probably just decided to pull the plug and focus on other items.  If it had been a top seller Im sure they would make every effort to continue. 

Offline Bob D.

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Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2021, 10:31 AM »
Suspending production until parts are available would seem to be a more appropriate response, unless sales are so low they can't justify keeping it in the lineup and are taking advantage of the pandemic to sideline the item. Maybe there is an economic or tax-savings angle to doing that now vice keep it active with minimal sales numbers.

Either way if there is still a market for a tool like this someone will step up and fill the void with a similar product.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9644
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2021, 10:41 AM »
Interestingly enough, it appears that TN knows what they'll be getting and when it will arrive.

203148 single head system.....OUT OF STOCK
203149 dual head system.....Pre-Order - Ships on January 24, 2022 - Subject to Change
201065 SE 1 head.....Pre-Order - Ships on February 25, 2022 - Subject to Change
580062 SE 2 head.....Pre-Order - Ships on January 01, 2022 - Subject to Change
201064 Vacuum pump.....Pre-Order - Ships on January 01, 2022 - Subject to Change

Offline Rollin22Petes

  • Posts: 206
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2021, 11:02 AM »
So I've done a little research and think I found something similar that will work (at least for me) It's the Virutex multiple fastening system, it uses compressed air instead of a vacuum, but is a very simple and affordable design that tilts and swivels.  You can also add multiple head units and get an option so you can vacuum it down to a work surface, it also uses a readily available rubber seal on the head.

Offline Jeff Zanin

  • Posts: 297
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #36 on: December 04, 2021, 11:12 AM »
Unfortunate but serves as a reminder to get what you can while you can, even more so now with constant "supply chain" issues and businesses everywhere adapting / streamlining to survive and prosper as best they can.

I have the VacSys with two heads and the accessories, it was expensive but has been a very handy product and my only wish is that I had gotten it sooner.  Hopefully support will be there at least for a while.

Offline xedos

  • Posts: 575
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #37 on: December 04, 2021, 01:11 PM »
Quote
Festool is permanently phasing out our Vac-Sys

Interesting word choice, there.  Perhaps the folks in Lebanon didn't translate the translation ?


I'll hold out for the discontinued discount @Cheese  [wink]

Nicely played Matt..  [thumbs up]

If they actually are marked down.  If not you might just miss the boat and have to buy one on the secondary market.  For more $$$.

Quote
I wonder what the support situation is now. If they can't source enough parts to build new where will they get parts to maintain systems previously sold.

Very good question.  They're required by german law to carry parts for a specified amt of time, but I'm not sure if a out clause exists.   Even so, stocking up only works for some parts.  Old rubber is still old and stiff even if it hasn't been used.

Quote
I noticed the vac sys was mia at the festool live on Friday.   I wonder if that means they have to go back to a time without.   My understanding of discontinued tools is they keep a supply of parts for repair for some time.

Not surprising.  That's an advertisement.  No sense pitching something you don't sell.



Quote
but I find it hard to understand the given reason for the discontinuation of this product. Supply chain issues affect all kinds of products including automobiles, and I know of no other products going into retirement with supply chain difficulties, a temporary condition, being stated as the justification. There should be more behind the story, which, of course, we probably won't know in the end

Between the lines it seems like "we don't sell enough of these to deal with the hassle and growth potential is practically nil.  Just tell em it's Covid or Supply Chain issues - they won't argue or complain " 

Does anyone know if they source this from an outside company like they do with the quick clamps and multi tool ???  I always assumed it all came from their sibling co. Festo, who's entire biz is pneumatics.


Quote
I mean, they were still selling it in a Classic Systainer,

The reason for this was discussed years ago and IIRC had to do with electrical regulations and certification.  T-loc wasn't feasible for whatever reason.




     

Offline presidentsdad

  • Posts: 85
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #38 on: December 04, 2021, 01:29 PM »
YIKES! I was already thinking about buying one.  Better get on the stick and start calling! :)
PresidentsDad - TS75; FS1900; FS1400 LR32; CT36; RO 150; DF700 XL; Seneca Small Mortise Kit; ETS EC 150/3; OF 1400; VAC SYS System Set, RO 90

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1431
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #39 on: December 04, 2021, 01:29 PM »
As with any large co. The real reason is the bottom line. I think the VAc sys while its really loved by some is a pretty slow seller.  I remember reading here some people had bought a brand new unit and the mfr. date was already several years old.  This tells me its been sitting on some shelf for years.  The cost vs. reward for the tool is hard to justify for most.  Coupled with increasing hard parts to source it was probably just decided to pull the plug and focus on other items.  If it had been a top seller Im sure they would make every effort to continue.

I have found that to be true even in some of the more popular items too. Off of the top of my head, the only thing (date coded) tools that I have which were purchased it the year they were made, are my DF500 and the RO125.  The RAS115 was already 3 years old when I bought it and the TS75 was 2, everything else was at least the previous year, and most of it was purchased in Sept of 19, so most of that year was gone. That is well before the supply chain issues came up.
I just figured that this was rather standard for a lower volume product/brand.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
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ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2021, 01:30 PM »
So I've done a little research and think I found something similar that will work (at least for me) It's the Virutex multiple fastening system, it uses compressed air instead of a vacuum, but is a very simple and affordable design that tilts and swivels.  You can also add multiple head units and get an option so you can vacuum it down to a work surface, it also uses a readily available rubber seal on the head.

It still uses vacuum it just uses compressed air through a venturi to create the vacuum.  They work but from what I understand they need a good sized compressor.  It is a viable option.  Its also easy to convert an old compressor if you already have one.  I had 3 compressors at one point.  I sold one and was trying to sell the small emglo/senco compressor which is a good compressor but its not really worth much since everyone is going to cordless nail guns (which is why I had it and no longer needed it) then it dawned on me to turn it into a vacuum pump.  Very happy it occurred to me before I gave it away.  As far as being in a noisy environment so sound isnt an issue that may be true but if it was me I know I would end up leaving it running and forgetting to turn it off eventually shortening its life.  I personally fail to see any situation where a motor running constantly is better than one that cycles on/off as needed.  Unless it was something that was constantly cycling on and off but with something like a compressor or vacuum pump that only cycles occasionally its a no go.  I use mine for vacuum pressing too so running a pump needlessly for hours on end isnt in the cards.  While I understand that festool didnt intend for their pump to be used for anything other than clamping I dont need multiples of the same thing for dedicated tasks either.  Space is a premium for me and the only thing stopping me from buying more tools is space so I need to be as streamlined as possible.  The small pucks work just as well for work holding are simple to make and can be made in any shape or size, they do lack the full swivel capabilities of the vac sys but its not real hard to hit the lever and turn the part.     

Offline BarneyD

  • Posts: 108
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2021, 01:33 PM »
I ordered the complete set (pump and both heads) from TN a couple of weeks ago. Arrived a couple of days later. Glad I did. It's already seen a lot of use in my little shop. So far, I love it.
Barney

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2021, 01:37 PM »
As with any large co. The real reason is the bottom line. I think the VAc sys while its really loved by some is a pretty slow seller.  I remember reading here some people had bought a brand new unit and the mfr. date was already several years old.  This tells me its been sitting on some shelf for years.  The cost vs. reward for the tool is hard to justify for most.  Coupled with increasing hard parts to source it was probably just decided to pull the plug and focus on other items.  If it had been a top seller Im sure they would make every effort to continue.

I have found that to be true even in some of the more popular items too. Off of the top of my head, the only thing (date coded) tools that I have which were purchased it the year they were made, are my DF500 and the RO125.  The RAS115 was already 3 years old when I bought it and the TS75 was 2, everything else was at least the previous year, and most of it was purchased in Sept of 19, so most of that year was gone. That is well before the supply chain issues came up.
I just figured that this was rather standard for a lower volume product/brand.

Well, I dont think its a coincidence that the tool that had the longest interval (ras115) is also discontinued.  Also while the 75 isa great saw the 55 is waaaay more popular and a better seller by far so while I would expect some extra shelf time with the 75 two years is a little surprising.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1431
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2021, 01:55 PM »
The venturi-vac would definitely be the way to go for me. In the big shop there is an unlimited supply of air. Maybe I should just be looking into the module and heads? The long skinny one could be very useful at times.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2021, 02:43 PM »
Quote
I noticed the vac sys was mia at the festool live on Friday.   I wonder if that means they have to go back to a time without.   My understanding of discontinued tools is they keep a supply of parts for repair for some time.

Not surprising.  That's an advertisement.  No sense pitching something you don't sell.

They did an entire segment on polishing headlamps with polishing products that were already discontinued, so the idea of pitching something you don't sell maybe isn't in their vocabulary.  Unless they learned from the commentary on that episode and its implications that maybe you don't do that again.

I can't imagine completely removing the Vac Sys from Festool Live episodes, even if it's discontinued, but I would understand removing it.  I would love to see some of the past episodes re-shot without it just to see how the workflow changes.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2021, 03:23 PM »
The venturi-vac would definitely be the way to go for me. In the big shop there is an unlimited supply of air. Maybe I should just be looking into the module and heads? The long skinny one could be very useful at times.

The long skinny one is what I was wanting too.  I was just looking at this stuff probably monday or tuesday.  From what I could find its only available in the kit.  I could not find it individually.  I had recently found out that the drawer back for the 89mm drawers I use are just a little narrower than the one I made.  It just fits between the epdm cord.  Here is a couple pics of the proto types I made.  The only thing I changed was making the cup part out of plastic.  The plywood works but you need to seal it up with some wood glue.  I already had the plastic so I just remade them but its kind of pricy so If I didnt already have it I would have just kept the plywood.   

Its not as robust as the vac sys since the frame work is plywood not metal.  I wouldn't try to hand plane with it but it works fine for laminating, routing etc. The cup suction is probably stronger than the plywood.  The heads are interchangeable by just pulling them off and tilts 180° and spins 360° I think I prefer the toggle switch to the foot pedal.  One less thing on the floor and its always right there but to be fair I haven't tried the pedal but looked at them originally and decided on the lever.  using the push to connect fittings makes it easy add or adapt.  The push connect fittings do tend to leak a small amount so I ran 3/8 tubing with barb fittings.  (These are much more leakproof) to several spots in the shop and terminate with a ball valve and push connect fitting.  This way I can just plug into which ever is closest and keep the others closed.  when done its easy to disconnect the the small 1/4" line from the push connect fitting and put it all away.  The compressor you see in the one photo is the one that is switched to vacuum pump prior to finding its permanent home in the shed. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 03:43 PM by afish »

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2021, 03:55 PM »
Also HEREis a complete set of plans with a parts breakdown for building a auto cycling venturi style pump from veneersupplies.com  they sell all the parts on their site. At least pre covid not sure if they have been impacted supply chain wise. 

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2021, 04:09 PM »
The venturi-vac would definitely be the way to go for me. In the big shop there is an unlimited supply of air. Maybe I should just be looking into the module and heads? The long skinny one could be very useful at times.

The long skinny one is what I was wanting too.  I was just looking at this stuff probably monday or tuesday.  From what I could find its only available in the kit.  I could not find it individually. 

The cups are all available individually.  The long skinny one is around $160, PN 580065 and the medium oval is $110, PN 580064.  The larger oval that comes with the SE2 is $130, so the total for all 3 individually would be $400. The kit with all three of those pads plus the classic Systainer is only $380.

I already have two large ovals, so I've been debating the kit vs the individual skinny and medium cups for the last two weeks or so.  I'm still on the fence, honestly, but since the prices go up at the first of the year, I'll pull the trigger one way or the other before then.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2021, 04:12 PM »
Thanks for the PN's

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 1385
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2021, 04:27 PM »
The heads are interchangeable by just pulling them off and tilts 180° and spins 360° I think I prefer the toggle switch to the foot pedal.  One less thing on the floor and its always right there but to be fair I haven't tried the pedal but looked at them originally and decided on the lever.  using the push to connect fittings makes it easy add or adapt.  The push connect fittings do tend to leak a small amount so I ran 3/8 tubing with barb fittings.  (These are much more leakproof) to several spots in the shop and terminate with a ball valve and push connect fitting.  This way I can just plug into which ever is closest and keep the others closed.  when done its easy to disconnect the the small 1/4" line from the push connect fitting and put it all away.  The compressor you see in the one photo is the one that is switched to vacuum pump prior to finding its permanent home in the shed.

Very cool!  If and when my pods break, I may look at this again and ask if there are any carving plans for the plywood pieces. :)

Funny thing about "foot pedal", the instructions for the Vac Sys MFT mount actually include mounting the "pedal" upside-down under the right hand side of the MFT and activated by pulling up with your hand rather than pressing down with a foot.  The recommended spot is pretty much the same location as the switch gear on the CMS table.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5448
Re: VAC SYS MFT CLAMP
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2021, 04:42 PM »
Does the steel VAS SYS mounting plate that attaches to the frame of the MFT3 also fit the older MFT 1080?

Offline rst

  • Posts: 2777
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2021, 04:48 PM »
While I have two complete sets and heads, before Festool made them available, I had been using two Virutex units that I installed on bar swivels...which reminds me that I really should sell those.

Offline Shane Holland

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Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2021, 06:50 PM »
If there are wear parts or consumables it might pay to assess future need and stock up if/while you still can.

Or maybe @Shane Holland can shed light on what the spare parts situation might be going forward.

Festool's general policy is to have spare parts available for many years after a tool is discontinued, I'm unsure if that policy may be impacted by supply chain issues outside of Festool's control. That would be a question for Festool to answer.

However, current indications are that accessories will continue to be available.

Shane
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Offline Jason Hagen

  • Posts: 72
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2021, 07:33 PM »
The venturi-vac would definitely be the way to go for me. In the big shop there is an unlimited supply of air. Maybe I should just be looking into the module and heads? The long skinny one could be very useful at times.

The long skinny one is what I was wanting too.  I was just looking at this stuff probably monday or tuesday.  From what I could find its only available in the kit.  I could not find it individually.  I had recently found out that the drawer back for the 89mm drawers I use are just a little narrower than the one I made.  It just fits between the epdm cord.  Here is a couple pics of the proto types I made.  The only thing I changed was making the cup part out of plastic.  The plywood works but you need to seal it up with some wood glue.  I already had the plastic so I just remade them but its kind of pricy so If I didnt already have it I would have just kept the plywood.   

Its not as robust as the vac sys since the frame work is plywood not metal.  I wouldn't try to hand plane with it but it works fine for laminating, routing etc. The cup suction is probably stronger than the plywood.  The heads are interchangeable by just pulling them off and tilts 180° and spins 360° I think I prefer the toggle switch to the foot pedal.  One less thing on the floor and its always right there but to be fair I haven't tried the pedal but looked at them originally and decided on the lever.  using the push to connect fittings makes it easy add or adapt.  The push connect fittings do tend to leak a small amount so I ran 3/8 tubing with barb fittings.  (These are much more leakproof) to several spots in the shop and terminate with a ball valve and push connect fitting.  This way I can just plug into which ever is closest and keep the others closed.  when done its easy to disconnect the the small 1/4" line from the push connect fitting and put it all away.  The compressor you see in the one photo is the one that is switched to vacuum pump prior to finding its permanent home in the shed.
This is pretty sweet looking. I do like toggle switch idea!

Offline Bob D.

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Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2021, 08:03 PM »
"However, current indications are that accessories will continue to be available."

That's good to hear, thanks Shane.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1215
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2021, 08:19 PM »
im pretty sure its a law that mfr. have to make parts for X amount of years. 7 years rings a bell but im not 100% on that.  however this whole supply chain issue who knows. Im not sure why festool decided to make the cups the way they did. I much prefer the easily replaceable epdm cord that costs pennies to replace if needed. I dont want to call it an industry standard but its a very popular method for vacuum sealing. 

Offline me_two

  • Posts: 13
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2021, 11:53 PM »
Here in Australia Festool quote 10 years for parts.
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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1431
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #57 on: December 05, 2021, 09:41 AM »
I think the parts availability thing is 10 years here in the US too, but I have no idea at what point that applies? Certainly that doesn't mean everything? There has to be some criteria, $$ amount or something?
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1010F
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation
MFT clamps set

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 9644
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #58 on: December 05, 2021, 10:20 AM »

Festool's general policy is to have spare parts available for many years after a tool is discontinued, I'm unsure if that policy may be impacted by supply chain issues outside of Festool's control. That would be a question for Festool to answer.

However, current indications are that accessories will continue to be available.


I certainly hope you're right Shane... [unsure]

However, 2 examples come to mind.

All Surfix products have been discontinued except Festool still offers the outdoor oil applicator 498062 and the 5 liter container of outdoor oil 498069. However, the applicator sponges 498070 are no longer available so once you burn through the single sponge that came with the applicator you're toast.

When Festool obsoleted the bench stand for the HL 850 they also quit supplying the scale ring 715167 which allows you to adjust the depth of cut when the HL 850 is mounted in the stand. Without the ring the bench stand is almost worthless. It took me almost 2 years to locate the scale ring because I had misplaced/lost the original one.

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 468
Re: VAC SYS DISCONTINUED?
« Reply #59 on: December 05, 2021, 01:06 PM »
Sounds like if you own a vac sys and are looking to sell it…you’ll have no problem…like a good used truck or house these days….
There are no mistakes....just new designs.