Author Topic: I’m at the very edge .. DF500 (or DF700) (Read 2334 times)

FestitaMakool · « **on:** April 23, 2022, 05:43 PM »

As per title, I’m right at the edge of placing an order for a Domino. As many of you might have seen, I’m veeery late at buying the Festool’s that most tend to buy first.. haha

To be honest, the mann need is what DF 500 delivers. As most of you use the Domino there is a lot of sheet goods it’ll be used for. Face frames are another. But then, there’s the more furniture use, like bed frames, bespoke desk build (to fit between wardrobe and wall, also self build) for my youngest, a step stool with solid oak and high quality pine - minimum 25mm final thickness.
And so on. So the demand will be varying - and I see that DF 500 will probably cover most.

Tha DF 700 only goes down to 8 mm (which many of my projects probably will be using)
Then there’s the 4-6 mm which will be perfect for lighter duty as face frames and such.

I know some of you are using the DF 700 for lighter work. Is it too big for my needs?
What are your experience and recommendations? (Bear in mind that I’m 75%+ -ish settlere for the DF 500)

tsmi243 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 23, 2022, 05:52 PM »

The 10mm dominos from the DF500 are pretty strong, you don't need the 700 for desks or stools.

Bed frame- the only place you need larger joints would be attaching the rails to the headboard/footboard. You're talking 8 joints per bed. Got a plunge router?

I think if you were to buy both, the 700 would gather a lot of dust in between uses.

Birdhunter · « **Reply #2 on:** April 23, 2022, 05:57 PM »

My experience building a king size bed (only one and that was enough) was that 14mm very long tenons were needed. Some people are clever enough to stack multiple small tenons, but I don’t trust that for a bed.

My guess is that you will end up with both machines. Might as well get it over with.

Birdhunter · « **Reply #3 on:** April 23, 2022, 06:01 PM »

Quote from: Birdhunter on April 23, 2022, 05:57 PM

My experience building a king size bed (only one and that was enough) was that 14mm very long tenons were needed. Some people are clever enough to stack multiple small tenons, but I don’t trust that for a bed.

I had to transport the bed so I combined the 14mm tenons with the 70p connectors. The bed has done well over the years.

My guess is that you will end up with both machines. Might as well get it over with.

SRSemenza · « **Reply #4 on:** April 23, 2022, 06:04 PM »

I think you will be better off going with the 500. You will definitely need those 6mm and sometimes smaller all the time.

The 700 is a much bigger machine to be handling and positioning for probably 90% of what the 500 will do. Plus with the 700 you have to deal with adapters or extra long cutters or something like that to do smaller sizes. Unless you do big heavy stuff like bed frames on a regular basis the 700 is overkill and cumbersome. It is easier to double up on 10mm dominoes for the once in a while job.

I suggest getting the 500. And if a job (especially if a paying job) comes along that requires the 700, then it will be worth getting that also.

Have you had your hands on either of them?

Seth

ChuckS · « **Reply #5 on:** April 23, 2022, 06:38 PM »

Not building a bed yet (probably one in 2023/2024), but everything else built including chairs and dining table was done with my DF500. The best way to tell if a DF700 is too heavy for you for ALL projects is to try one out. Hold one and make plunge 30 to 40 times, and lift it up and down for a similar # of times to get a feel.

A slim guy myself, I find the DF700 not suitable for me if I use it as a regular machine, even though the cost (including the Seneca smaller bits) hasn't been a factor to me. I also find the DF500 a much better machine in tackling tasks that require fine tuning/positioning.

I’m at the very edge .. DF500 (or DF700)

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #6 on:** April 23, 2022, 06:46 PM »

I would say DF500 too. It will do most of what you would ever need, especially since you have never had either to this point.
I have had mine in a commercial cabinet shop for over 7 years. It has performed flawlessly for me, mostly sheet goods and faceframe type work, but I have done some heavier things. Multiple tenons are very strong.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #7 on:** April 23, 2022, 07:39 PM »

Thanks a lot for your insights guys. It’s very likely, and more fun and challenging to do hand made mortise & tenon for aka a bed frame (Also it’ll be very likely to have to be able to dismantle it too). That is one of the things that make the favour of the DF 500, being light, small and probably much easier positioning of the machine too. So for those few occasions, as an hobbyist it makes a lot more sense to do traditional mortise & tenon than relying on a DF 700 which is for most other tasks too big and heavy.

So, of course - if I’ll be in such a situation that I really can benefit from a DF 700, I would probably get it in addition to a 500. (I tend not to sell many of the things or tools I buy, even if they sit idle.. you never know when, again

)

Yes, I do have plunging routers. I’ll also make a tenon jig to use on the table saw.
Lately these tenons I have made with a Japanese pull saw and chisels. It’s fun, but tedious [big grin - Therefore I’m looking into refining and make do with traditional machines helped with jigs.

(Sorry about the auto correct.. I saw a few in the opening post.. I think they sneak in the software long after I’m finished, or at least out of sight)

mino · « **Reply #8 on:** April 23, 2022, 08:08 PM »

I am in the same point and decided for DF500, once the budget allows. (I can rent it for $20/day till then.)

The thing is, Domino makes tasks one can do via other means just (way) more efficient.

DF700 would enable me to do those 2-3 big projects efficiently and 20-30 projects marginally.

DF500 will allow me those 20-30 projects efficiently and I can still do the 2-3 big ones via other methods. E.g. using big 14mm dowels with a drill fixture etc. etc.

IMO for a non-pro DF500 is the choice. For a pro, one should have both. "Starting" with DF500 for a furniture maker and DF700 for a carpenter.

As for the Seneca stuff, IMO it makes sense for someone who does framing-style stuff mostly and will need the smaller sizes for those special tasks/jobs. Say up to 20% of time. I do not see that setup as a DF500 alternative in the slightest - based on the various comments as well as the dimensions and weight aspects. In the same way TS75 is not a good "sole" saw, DF700 is not a good "sole" Domino. For cabinetry/general furniture work, that is.

EDIT: DF700 not good sole one, of course ... fixed.

woodferret · « **Reply #9 on:** April 23, 2022, 08:16 PM »

Throw in trust issues too With the DF500 builds, i know that if i screw up in placement or the alignment pins were off i have enough latitude to fix it. DF700 plunges are frekishly critical placement-wise and I feel more comfortable taking the time to mark and measure traditional mortise locations rather than a pick-and-go tool.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 24, 2022, 08:37 AM »

Quote from: mino on April 23, 2022, 08:08 PM

I am in the same point and decided for DF500, once the budget allows. (I can rent it for $20/day till then.)

IMO for a non-pro DF500 is the choice. For a pro, one should have both. "Starting" with DF500 for a furniture maker and DF700 for a carpenter.

EDIT: DF700 not good sole one, of course ... fixed.

I have never seen/heard of a rental option? Is that for a local dealer who keeps a "used" or "demo" model in stock for that kind of thing? Maybe as an encouragement to sales? "Try it and see what it can do for you" and you will buy one. Maybe because of the specialty of the Domino or do they do this with other Festool equipment too?

Agreed totally. A pro should have both because they can justify the expense in time savings. Same for TS55 and TS75. The smaller, easier to handle machine for the bulk of the work, with the capacity for more when needed.

mino · « **Reply #11 on:** April 24, 2022, 09:26 AM »

Quote from: Crazyraceguy on April 24, 2022, 08:37 AM

I have never seen/heard of a rental option? Is that for a local dealer who keeps a "used" or "demo" model in stock for that kind of thing? Maybe as an encouragement to sales? "Try it and see what it can do for you" and you will buy one. Maybe because of the specialty of the Domino or do they do this with other Festool equipment too?
...

Bigger tool dealers (3-4 in my city of 500k) over here usually have a "tool rentals" desk. Is used for when tools are under repair and for casual-use where buying the tool is not worth it for whatever reason.

One place over here has the Domino 500, Planex with CT, AGC, Renofix and I think some other Festool kit. Other stuff they have from other makers. I have assumed tool rentals are common in the states too. Sorry if mystifying.

jeffinsgf · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2022, 10:25 AM »

Quote from: mino on April 24, 2022, 09:26 AM

... I have assumed tool rentals are common in the states too. Sorry if mystifying.

Tool rental is common, but for the rental companies to have something Festool would be very unusual. Ours tend toward larger, specialty tools like large hammer drills, powder actuated nailers, and the outdoor power equipment like trenchers, tillers and such.

jeffinsgf · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2022, 10:36 AM »

Just to repeat what's been mentioned several times already...

I have a DF-500 and have had to restock 3 or 4 sizes in the big Systainer full of Dominos in just over a year. I have used it far more than I thought I would and it has been part of almost every project I've done.

My boss has a DF-700 and has maybe used it for 2 projects in 3 or 4 years.

When I've had projects with larger timber I've gotten creative with using multiples of the 10 x 50 Dominos and it has worked fine. If I had entry doors, bed frames or fancy garden gates on my to-do list, I wouldn't hesitate to get a 700, but I don't, so I'm doing just fine with the 500.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2022, 10:58 AM »

Quote from: jeffinsgf on April 24, 2022, 10:25 AM

Quote from: mino on April 24, 2022, 09:26 AM
... I have assumed tool rentals are common in the states too. Sorry if mystifying.

Tool rental is common, but for the rental companies to have something Festool would be very unusual. Ours tend toward larger, specialty tools like large hammer drills, powder actuated nailers, and the outdoor power equipment like trenchers, tillers and such.

Yes, as Jeff said, rental is common here too. Pretty much any home improvement store has rental tools, but nothing like a Domino. There are even companies that do nothing but rentals, but those are the bigger tools/equipment.

afish · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2022, 12:39 PM »

way back when I was looking I was unsure too. I'm super happy I went with the 500 and the DDF40 is a good mate to the DF500 since it goes up to 12mm. The upside to it drilling round holes is its easy to use the ddf40 to accurately place the holes and drill to 40mm This gives you a good hole to send a longer drill bit if you want to really extend the dowel. I built a pretty heavy outdoor gate and used this method for the corners. I purchased some mahogany dowel rod and just cut them as needed. Long story short I used to think I was going to buy the 700 too but I dont feel the same way anymore.

Paul_HKI · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2022, 02:57 PM »

As everyone else says, 500 if you're looking for a true all-rounder for furniture making type work.

I have both. When I pull out the 700 it's for big stuff, and that's rare enough. I'm glad to have it when there's a use for it, but there are other options in that case if I only had the 500.

With the pair of Domino machines, I also have a Lamello Top 21, which I use on the occasions when I'm making casework along with the 500. I bought it used, and it sees use often enough that I'm glad to have it.

But if only one machine was to be purchased, it would be the 500, hands down.

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2022, 03:54 PM »

I really appreciate your views folks!

You all seem very consolidated about the experience and choices you have done.
As I recall it’s also what I have gathered in my memory from reading here, any project or reference directly to the tool, that be the DF500 or 700.

For you pro’s, it’s always interesting to hear cause you usually have a whole other perspective on tools than us hobbyists. That said, most here are close to pro’s regarding the choice and evaluation of tools. I usually follow a “cut to the chase” with tools, but as most hobbyists here, it’s about having a bit of fun on the way too.
The Domino is an expensive tool, the kind I don’t just jump on, not knowing on what or when I need it. That’s why I have waited so long.

Seth: Yes, I’ve handled both briefly - no actual use, only at a dealer. And yes, the 700 is massive and do look like I was going to move snow with a tractor on my front steps, where a bristle on a stick would do perfectly

. I usually downsize on initial thoughts, but the ergonomics on the 700 seemed half a mile better.

ChuckS · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2022, 04:22 PM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on April 24, 2022, 03:54 PM

Snip I usually downsize on initial thoughts, but the ergonomics on the 700 seemed half a mile better. Snip

For one project, I had way too many mortises to mill in one session even for the weight of the DF500, so I made the machine more "ergonomic" by adding a handle to the body. I removed the handle after I was done as the barrel is good for regular use (under 100 mortises).

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2022, 04:36 PM »

Chuck..that was a very good idea!
A DF 500/700 hybrid with an ergonomic handle, smart..

ChuckS · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2022, 06:52 PM »

I saw that idea somewhere (this Forum?), but can't remember if it was a handplane handle like mine. I cut the slot for the hose clamp with the 4mm cutter.

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2022, 06:55 PM »

I assume you had to go at it from both sides, but did it meet in the middle? or did you have to drill a little deeper? Those little 4mm don't go too deep

ChuckS · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2022, 07:52 PM »

I mortised the handle from both sides, meeting in the middle. If my memory is correct, the handle is hollow in the core, so what mattered was the first 3 or or 4 mm on each side.

Correction: I went out and checked. I used a 5mm cutter, not 4mm. Part of the core is indeed hollow.

smorgasbord · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2022, 08:44 PM »

I was faced with the same decision late last year, and went with the larger 700 and the Seneca adapter to run 500 bits. I also bought both domino assortments - one for the 500 and one for the 700.

My rationale was simple: I've done large projects (eg, entry doors, big tables, etc.) and expect to continue (eg, king size bed frame) and so wanted to be able to do both. The 700 has some usability improvements over the 500 (it was developed after), particularly with the height gauge and rear handle ergonomics - but the weight may be an issue for you if you have a run of lots of joints. In addition to the thicker dominos, the ability to plunge deeper on 8mm and 10mm seemed important to me for strength in some applications.

Admittedly, I haven't done a real project with it yet, but the few one-offs I've done for shop re-jiggering and such have been with the 12mm cutter.

Note that the 700 spins at a slower rpm than the 500, so when you're using the Seneca adapter and smaller diameter bits, be sure to feed in slowly.

Lincoln · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2022, 09:58 PM »

I had the 500, which I wasn't really happy with, so sold it and bought the 700. I find it much easier to use - not that I struggled with it, just didn't find it particulary ergonomic. The 700 is better built and more accurate. It's a fair bit heavier, but I think the design makes up for it.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but i found the 500 to be in no-mans-land: not great for cabinet work, too small for projects involving bigger pieces.
Having said that, the 500 is still a great tool and if there wasn't a 700, I definitely would have kept it. But for me, a DDF40 for cabinets and a DF700 for everything else is perfect.
The 700 looks huge, but when you actually pick one up it's surprisingly easy to handle.

ChuckS · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2022, 10:38 PM »

I've used the DF700 from another source only two times. The two features that I like about it are the stop pins and depth adjustment slide:

Pins are better than paddles because they allow me to register against a previous mortise if so desired. If Festool sold just the base with pins for the DF500, I'd get one.

Blues · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2022, 11:15 PM »

Quote from: Lincoln on April 24, 2022, 09:58 PM

I had the 500, which I wasn't really happy with, so sold it and bought the 700. I find it much easier to use - not that I struggled with it, just didn't find it particulary ergonomic. The 700 is better built and more accurate. It's a fair bit heavier, but I think the design makes up for it.
I know I'm in the minority on this, but i found the 500 to be in no-mans-land: not great for cabinet work, too small for projects involving bigger pieces.
Having said that, the 500 is still a great tool and if there wasn't a 700, I definitely would have kept it. But for me, a DDF40 for cabinets and a DF700 for everything else is perfect.
The 700 looks huge, but when you actually pick one up it's surprisingly easy to handle.

This is the exact combo i have. DDF40 is just superb for smaller projects and plywood. While the DDF 700.. is just the ultimate for anything else that the ddf40 can't handle.
The domino 500 is not convenient ergonomically.. atleast for me.

ChuckS · « **Reply #27 on:** April 25, 2022, 10:04 AM »

Quote from: FestitaMakool on April 23, 2022, 07:39 PM

Snip.(I tend not to sell many of the things or tools I buy, even if they sit idle.. you never know when, again )

Yes, I do have plunging routers. I’ll also make a tenon jig to use on the table saw. Snip.

That was me -- more a decade ago. I had a jointer that sat idle for years, taking up precious space in my shop (a garage at night). Once I started selling, I got rid of about a dozen machines and tools including a CT26 and TS75. Of course, that freed up space that was sooner or later occupied by new purchases.

Indeed, the plunge router (with a bushing & spiral bit) has been the tool to do loose tenon joinery for decades long before the Domino machine was invented. I still use it occasionally when the DF500 isn't the right machine for the project due to its limited cutter sizes and/or cutting depths. Tenon making is a piece of cake with a tall fence on the table saw (for those who don't own a tenon jig).

FestitaMakool · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2022, 05:10 PM »

Thanks for all your opinions and input folks!
The thingy arrived today and I’ve only had a very quick look at it.. seems familiar though, wonder why..

I have a small project wich is perfect to learn this new thingy. It’s not crucial to get every joint 100% since it’s a skeleton for a cabinet which will be covered by boards. And there’s some other joints I have solved other ways before I’ll try the Domino on too.

Chuck, you mentioned jointer.. I’m on a long debate of a bench model, but first a thicknesser.
Combi machines are heavy, expensive and demands a good amount of space. I’ll bet the thicknesser is the one who’s going to get the most use. I’d like some opinions on that too - preferably models available in Europe. I’ve looked at Shinko which Dictum carries - a small but well equipped jointer. And a Makita or Metabo thicknesser. DeWalt and Matabo also have what looks to be nice combi machines too. But they are in the $1500-1800 range..

Well here it is (and I think the SYS3 for the Dominoes are not a waste of space?)

Crazyraceguy · « **Reply #29 on:** May 04, 2022, 06:13 PM »

Cool. You will definitely love it.
It looks like they changed to insert on those too, when they got the new Sys3.