Author Topic: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....  (Read 4551 times)

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Offline Tom Gensmer

  • Posts: 768
  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« on: April 07, 2021, 08:35 AM »
Looks like Festool has updated the TS-55 saws again, both corded and cordless. The primary update seems to be the elimination of the riving knife, with kick-back considerations addressed by a system similar to what Mafell has been using in their MT-55 saws for years. It's interesting to me that Festool opted for a mechanical sensor, as opposed to internal electronics as in the Mafell, I wonder if there is a patent Festool had to work around?

Also, it appears the new TS-55 machines will utilize the more narrow kerf blades like the HK saws and Mafell saws.

Anyways, interesting developments. I would suspect that this might also explain the temporary disappearance of the TS-75, I would think they're working on replacing the riving knife with the kickback sensor into that machine as well.

I've only tripped the kickback sensor on my MT-55 a handful of times, always when ripping thick, sawn lumber. It's incredibly fast, one moment you're sawing, the next moment everything is completely quiet and still, and I have to go get a wedge to spread the kerf so I can pull the saw out of the cut. Mafell's solution works extremely well, my concern with the Festool solution is that it requires the saw to physically rise out of the cut, but I may be splitting hairs here....

EDIT: the braking feature is only on the cordless machine, the corded TS-55F will just be using the thinner kerf blades. Thanks Squall_line for catching this. Odd that they are only doing this on the cordless, my corded MT-55 has the brake....

« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 09:53 AM by Tom Gensmer »
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Offline Tom Gensmer

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  • Residential Remodeler in Minnesota
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2021, 09:52 AM »
I thought they were only removing the riving knife from the TSC?

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/new-improved-ts55/

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/new-tsc-55-k-saw-and-tpc-18-drill/

Yup, you're correct, at 12:00 they address that the TS-55F will use the thinner kerf blades, but not the braking tech. I'll edit the first post to reflect this.
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Offline RustE

  • Posts: 605
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2021, 09:59 AM »
I’m ready to see the 1,8mm blade options for my HK55.  Wonder how long before those start appearing at U.S. dealers?

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8899
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2021, 10:41 AM »
With the corded TS-55F using only the thin kerf blades but retaining the riving knife, maybe the older TS 55 saws can be more easily changed over to the thin kerf blades by using the thinner riving knife. Would be nice if the new fits the old.  [smile]

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 605
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2021, 10:56 AM »
...
maybe the older TS 55 saws can be more easily changed over to the thin kerf blades by using the thinner riving knife
...

Tenryu PSW-16052CB2TK is both a thin kerf blade (.063 inch or ~1,6 mm) and a riving knife.  Not sure on the thickness of the riving knife.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2021, 11:08 AM »
It's interesting to me that Festool opted for a mechanical sensor, as opposed to internal electronics as in the Mafell, I wonder if there is a patent Festool had to work around?

Anyways, interesting developments. I would suspect that this might also explain the temporary disappearance of the TS-75, I would think they're working on replacing the riving knife with the kickback sensor into that machine as well.

I think they were doing this as a min effort design job. Probably just to get the life of these generation of saw extended a bit longer with minimal rework/cost. So they couldn't do massive changes to the tools/their motors to do this change. I don't know that we can go linking the TS-75 situation to this, but they did happen at the same time. Maybe there is some legislation change coming or festool has found they may be in a grey area on some safety rule and had to do something quick. It is odd for them to just suddenly do this small change.  Maybe some of this is they may be still trying to figure out where they are going with the saws longer term, and this gives them more time. I'm guessing a lot of companies are trying to decide if they continue the corded tools, and that decision will drive overall designs going forward.

If this does have something with the TS-75, maybe they did have to pull it temporarily till they can come out with some quick changes.

I don't think our EU friends have indicated any recent safety law changes over there that would force such changes. So it does still look a bit odd to do this.

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 103
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2021, 11:15 AM »
If what my vendor told me is true, I'll have the TSC 55K in hand today. It's on the UPS truck now...

Really strange that Festool USA still hasn't posted the TSC 55K, yet Festool International, Festool UK and other have had it up for at least a couple of months.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2021, 11:22 AM »
If what my vendor told me is true, I'll have the TSC 55K in hand today. It's on the UPS truck now...

Really strange that Festool USA still hasn't posted the TSC 55K, yet Festool International, Festool UK and other have had it up for at least a couple of months.

Festool USA gets tools 6-12 months after the EU market, so that is normal.   They actually had it on the Festool USA website for a moment when this first came out.  I'm surprised if they are getting here this fast.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 2294
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2021, 11:51 AM »
What is the issue with the riving knife on the TSC55?

Why do away with it. It has not ever stopped me from
making a cut nor do I see how it makes those cuts more
dangerous than no knife.

What am I missing?
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2412
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2021, 12:04 PM »
I've only tripped the kickback sensor on my MT-55 a handful of times, always when ripping thick, sawn lumber. It's incredibly fast, one moment you're sawing, the next moment everything is completely quiet and still, and I have to go get a wedge to spread the kerf so I can pull the saw out of the cut. Mafell's solution works extremely well, ...
I'd much prefer physical riving knife over electronic solution. The knife does more than just preventing kickback. It's a wedge that lets me keep cutting reactive wood or thin dangling strips without a) stopping or b) catching it by back teeth and gouging it.

P.S. Perhaps having sensors in addition to the riving knife makes sense for situations such as plunging into material or running into a steel screw (don't ask how I know).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 12:25 PM by Svar »

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2021, 02:44 PM »
I like that the STM has fallen to nature.  If you put a surface on top of something, it becomes a table, and will get a lot of stuff piled on to it.   They could have used a MFT/3.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2021, 03:13 PM »
What is the issue with the riving knife on the TSC55?

Why do away with it. It has not ever stopped me from
making a cut nor do I see how it makes those cuts more
dangerous than no knife.

What am I missing?
Marketing perspective.
I noticed through the year that people were dissing Festool left and right on youtube et al for "annoying" riving knife while Makita does not have one and Maffel has this "special electronics" thing and Festool is "just stuck in past".

Usual problems with social network bubbles. They inflate pseudo-issue to the point companies are forced to address them at the cost of creating real issues which are too complex for today's shallow reviewers to comprehend. Couple this with Festool's persistent incompetence in marketing their features and you get this mess of mature but unique features like the sliding knife being dropped to give way to gimmicks.

It is ironic that they put this on the TSC only as physical riving knife is essential for free-hand ripping and if one it to use a TS like a HK, it would be the TSC one ... (guilty as charged).
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Offline Dan Rush

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  • Trim carpenter
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2021, 03:22 PM »
What is the issue with the riving knife on the TSC55?

Why do away with it. It has not ever stopped me from
making a cut nor do I see how it makes those cuts more
dangerous than no knife.

What am I missing?
Not speaking to the safety aspect of a knife or not, but I'd welcome the removal of the physical knife for my use.

 When cutting prefinished or laminated materials, (99% of my work)  I routinely make a scoring cut about 5-10mm deep drawing the saw backwards thru the material, then follow that up with a full depth cut, to avoid splinters and chips. When performing this cut on the very edge of a piece, the knife can drop down along the edge of the material, dragging the saw and track askew, or binding.

Admittedly my needs are pretty non standard, and surely not a reason for the change, but I'll probably update my saw for that reason alone.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 03:33 PM »
Not speaking to the safety aspect of a knife or not, but I'd welcome the removal of the physical knife for my use.

 When cutting prefinished or laminated materials, (99% of my work)  I routinely make a scoring cut about 5-10mm deep drawing the saw backwards thru the material, then follow that up with a full depth cut, to avoid splinters and chips. When performing this cut on the very edge of a piece, the knife can drop down along the edge of the material, dragging the saw and track askew, or binding.

Admittedly my needs are pretty non standard, and surely not a reason for the change, but I'll probably update my saw for that reason alone.
In this use case I would remove the knife as it is purely mechanical and there is no sensor to tell the saw it is not there. But not sure how that would go ref regulations should there be an accident in a professional setting ...

I have a Parkside tracksaw which does not have any riving knife, so practical safety would still be fine. The saw should retract the blade if it goes on a flying excursion ...
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1014
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2021, 03:39 PM »
What is the issue with the riving knife on the TSC55?

Why do away with it. It has not ever stopped me from
making a cut nor do I see how it makes those cuts more
dangerous than no knife.

What am I missing?
Marketing perspective.
I noticed through the year that people were dissing Festool left and right on youtube et al for "annoying" riving knife while Makita does not have one and Maffel has this "special electronics" thing and Festool is "just stuck in past".

Usual problems with social network bubbles. They inflate pseudo-issue to the point companies are forced to address them at the cost of creating real issues which are too complex for today's shallow reviewers to comprehend. Couple this with Festool's persistent incompetence in marketing their features and you get this mess of mature but unique features like the sliding knife being dropped to give way to gimmicks.

It is ironic that they put this on the TSC only as physical riving knife is essential for free-hand ripping and if one it to use a TS like a HK, it would be the TSC one ... (guilty as charged).

Well said Mino  [smile] Offensive marketing is not Festool’s strength, but I do believe they often tap in listening to their users. More so than the ones that are highly offensive in their marketing.
So to speak, and to Festool users delight they are good at the consumer behaviour part of marketing.

That said, I’m a highly potential customer for the new TS 55FEBQ. Although, I’d like to know if it will be compatible with the CMS TS 55R module, as the new model will have a thinner riving knife, and when used in the module you (can) replace the riving knife with the one that comes with the module. Only that one is for 2,2mm kerf.. If the riving knife can be grind down from ^2,2 to ^1,8 and the attachment points still are the same. Soo if anyone happens to buy a “F” and have a module I’d be very happy to know.
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Offline ear3

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Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2021, 06:39 PM »
I don't have time to watch the video right now, but is that a new drill guide in the lower right, or just the old pro tools one?
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2021, 07:00 PM »
Once a track saw user (for only a brief period of time), I wonder why the riving knife needed to go for the anti-kick back feature. Can't they both exist?

In a recent ripping of 2"+ thick oak planks, the riving knife on my SawStop didn't completely prevent binding. I had to wedge the end midway. Without the riving knife the situation could have been worse.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 07:02 PM by ChuckM »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2021, 07:09 PM »
Once a track saw user (for only a brief period of time), I wonder why the riving knife needed to go for the anti-kick back feature. Can't they both exist?
The anti-kickback sensor is mechanical and occupies the place riving knife mechanism occupied. No way to fit both.

Not sure why Festool did not use an electronic sensor like Maffel instead of a mechanical one, but there probably was some good reason for that.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2021, 07:11 PM »
Thanks, Mino. I'd prefer an electronic version then.

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2412
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2021, 07:20 PM »
The anti-kickback sensor is mechanical and occupies the place riving knife mechanism occupied. No way to fit both.
Mechanical arm still goes to an electric switch. Leave the riving knife as is and mount a button, lever, sensor, whatever, almost anywhere on the saw base. Something small, like a flip foot that electric planers have. Probably a little more modification and wiring than what Festool did. They might not even have changed base casting, but motor casting is new for sure.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 07:34 PM by Svar »

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 103
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2021, 08:56 PM »
Well, I received my TSC 55 that I've been waiting for since February. I was told it'd be the K model, but it's the current one still listed on the Festool USA site. I'm not sure that I should really care either way, but I'll still check with the vendor.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 533
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 03:58 AM »
Mechanical arm still goes to an electric switch. Leave the riving knife as is and mount a button, lever, sensor, whatever, almost anywhere on the saw base. Something small, like a flip foot that electric planers have. Probably a little more modification and wiring than what Festool did. They might not even have changed base casting, but motor casting is new for sure.
That will not work - the saw may not be always on the rails and the material below may not be even etc. Once they decided on a mechanical detection of a saw position, the current approach was set. The only other (practical) way is an accelerometer like Maffel uses which may also be patented and has some limitations too ref. safety.
When the Machine does not have a brain, use Yours.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 2x 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2400, 2x GRS 16 PE, GECKO-DOSH

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2412
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2021, 02:17 PM »
That will not work - the saw may not be always on the rails and the material below may not be even etc.
It would work because functionally what I mentioned is no different from what Festool implemented. Namely, a mechanical sensor placed behind and 5-10 mm to the left of the blade. What I'm saying is that it did not have to be a large arm wrapped around the arbor that leaves no room for riving knife.

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 640
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2021, 02:47 PM »
In Europe, all table saws require a riving knife.  In the USA, they've been required since (I think) 2010. 

So if they leave off the riving knife, will they be able to use them on the CMS table?  Is that not a "table saw"?

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 103
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2021, 04:52 PM »
More interesting information on the TSC 55 and TSC 55K. I downloaded the TSC 55 manual from Festool US and the TSC 55K from Festool International for comparison purposes.

If the manuals are accurate, the TSC 55K will no longer accept battery packs less than 18V. It still has the option of running with one battery in the lower slot. Also, and this is a strange one, the TSC 55K now goes to 12 on the variable speed control, whereas the TSC 55 goes to 10. Just make it 11. Looking at the recommended cutting speeds, they're the same for both.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1374
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2021, 05:20 PM »
In Europe, all table saws require a riving knife.  In the USA, they've been required since (I think) 2010. 

So if they leave off the riving knife, will they be able to use them on the CMS table?  Is that not a "table saw"?

CMS doesn't exist anymore, and the zombie version in N.A. has never had the saw module.  So doesn't matter.

What would be curious is if Festool added any feature on the saw the prohibits the new model from mounting in the Saw modules.

Offline Havwoods Accessories Ltd

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Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2021, 04:00 AM »
More interesting information on the TSC 55 and TSC 55K. I downloaded the TSC 55 manual from Festool US and the TSC 55K from Festool International for comparison purposes.

If the manuals are accurate, the TSC 55K will no longer accept battery packs less than 18V. It still has the option of running with one battery in the lower slot. Also, and this is a strange one, the TSC 55K now goes to 12 on the variable speed control, whereas the TSC 55 goes to 10. Just make it 11. Looking at the recommended cutting speeds, they're the same for both.
What do you mean by "12 on the variable speed control" ? Just interested as i have a TSC 55K here in front of me.
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Offline digilante

  • Posts: 22
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2021, 08:27 AM »
Hi,

As a person who completed the CMS modules set just as it was being taken off the market (grrr), the question above "What would be curious is if Festool added any feature on the saw the prohibits the new model from mounting in the Saw modules." is pretty important to me.

I've spent some time looking at detailed photos of both the TS 55 REBQ and the new FEBQ, and the only difference I can see is that in the new one the riving knife does not have the hole to screw in / attach the bigger riving knife that comes with the CMS TS module. Everything else seems to be there: the hole in the blade cover where the riving knife screw goes in; the hole on the bottom plate where the CMS TS depth adjuster is screwed in; the base plate ends seem to have the same shape, indicating that the saw as a whole could be mounted.

So, you could drill and tap a hole in the riving knife, or potentially, swap the riving knife with the one in your TS 55 that is not mounted in the CMS, or get the older one on ekat.

Ultimately though, to be sure, someone here with a CMS TS module and the TS 55 F would need to confirm, or I would need to do a careful review of the EKAT technical drawings, which on a Friday afternoon I'm pretty much loathe to do ;-)

Offline digilante

  • Posts: 22
Re: Updated TS-55 machines, sans riving knife.....
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 09:13 AM »
Ok, could not resist eyeballing EKAT...

So the base plate looks exactly the same in the technical diagrams, as do all the parts that fit onto it, although, the part numbers are different between the REBQ and FEBQ plates.

The riving knife is different, *obviously*, as the blade thickness is different too - meaning that I wrote a bunch of bull above regarding the idea of swapping an REBQ knife with a FEBQ knife.

This further leads me to understand that the CMS TS additional riving knife cannot be used as it would be too thick, and thus you cannot use the blade guard on top of it either.

So unless you drill and tap a hole in the FEBQ knife, and make your own thinner CMS knife, the new TS 55 F is a no go for the CMS.