Author Topic: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone  (Read 8181 times)

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Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« on: March 09, 2011, 05:32 PM »
When I bought this cyclone, I noticed the nice suction feature which should pull the bag against the square drum...preventing the bag from being sucked up the cyclone.  However, I can't get it to work, no surprise there....  tried tinkering with it for an hour, no luck... called Oneida, put on hold for 20 minutes, tech support busy, they will call me back...that never happened, no surprise there either....

so I rely on the best support system out there, the FOG!    Has anyone gotten this suction system to actually hold the bag to the walls of the square dust collection bin?  If so, what should I check?  Good seal at top, no leakage...  thx in advance...






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Offline tvgordon

  • Posts: 501
  • Springfield, Ohio
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2011, 08:28 PM »
I have the same problem. I couldn't figure out how to get it adjusted right either so I ended up just putting a scrap piece of wood in it to hold the bag down.

Tom

Offline festooltim

  • Posts: 332
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2011, 08:37 PM »
I dont have one but the little hose that goes in the side of the box has to create suction so it sucks the bag to the side. Try dissconnecting the big hose that goes to the cyclone from the vac to give it time to create suction on the bag before it pulls it away.
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Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2011, 09:09 PM »
>  Try dissconnecting the big hose that goes to the cyclone from the vac to give it time to create suction on the bag before it pulls it away.


You have the right idea.....assuming it worked,   you have to do this every time you turn on the vac? 

Offline Jerry Sitton

  • Posts: 53
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2011, 09:22 PM »
 I have one and it works just fine. Did you try taking off the small tube at the connection on top before the shutoff valve
and see if it has suction while the vac is running? I use my tongue to test, but putting my tongue on it seems to easier to tell
if it has suction. It should be noticeable but not enough to hurt.  [embarassed]
There's also a foam piece that fits inside the bucket handle where the tube goes in to prevent the bag from clogging the suction
of the tube. Of course the obvious, make sure the valve is on. :)
I guess to it might be possible that one of the little 90 degree quick tube connectors might be a problem by not allow the
air flow from vac? Just a thought.

Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2011, 10:14 PM »
Hi Jerry, thx for response...

Yes, valve is open, and the filter is on... and yes, there is "some" suction coming through the hose, but its very small amount, which makes sense, its such a small diam. hose... so the problem is, there is NOT enough suction to pull the bag tight to the walls.    The upward pull from the cyclone is of course,  quite strong, hence why I am curious how that small amount of suction could hold the bag to the wall?

I remove the bottom large hose, and put my hand over the inlet 90, which puts ALL the suction through the tiny hose... I put my finger on the inside of the box where the suction hole meets the filter...and tapping my finger on the hole, I feel a a very slight hold to my finger tip...not strong... is that how yours works?   I always suspected that little bit of suction would not hold the bag down...  and it doesn't.   I am curious why yours does?   

Offline BJM9818

  • Posts: 217
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2011, 11:03 PM »
I first had a problem with the bag on my Dust Deputy however I found the small tube going in to the vac end was pinched and reducing flow to almost zero.  I cut that section off and it worked fine but this doesn't sound like your problem.   What type of bags are you using?  I find the  the Glad Black reinforced kitchen size bags work the best for me. Your bag might have to much surface area to allow the tinny hose to retain it against the wall.  I have had it almost filled with concrete pieces (i was using a shop vac not my Midi  ;D) and it never ripped. 

Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 12:33 AM »
I am using the bags that came with the product....snug fit, no excess...

How did you get the tube out of the fitting?  Tried pliers on the fitting,  could not loosen it, just chewed through plastic... i figured they might have glued it?


Offline ossietim

  • Posts: 118
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 12:46 AM »
As has been stated you need to let the negative pressure pull the bag to the sides of the box BEFORE connecting the top cyclone hose.
 (There is too much volume of "negative air" to remove before the bag is held)
You can remove the top cover and watch the bag being pulled to the sides. [cool]

N.B Once it is pulled the air is expelled and the bag will stay in place from then on.even with subsequent startups and stops.
 As long as the small hose is workin of course! [smile]
ossie
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 12:51 AM by ossietim »
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Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2011, 01:04 AM »
>  As has been stated you need to let the negative pressure pull the bag to the sides of the box BEFORE connecting the top cyclone hose.             


                         OK, thx again for that.... went back at it....   (this thing was buggin me ;-)

I got it to work this time...but not as simple as you described....  I had to employ a trick, and then be patient...

I took the hose off at the bottom elbow....  kept my hand over the 90 deg elbow to force MAX. suction through the small hose,  (motor was screaming) had to wait about 15 seconds, and yes, it did pull the bag against the walls...

Now I am curious, is this what you do?  Or do you simply remove the hose from cyclone top, and the bag sucks to the wall?  If so, you must have more suction in your line.   Even though its new cyclone,  maybe it's clogged with debri, so I will blast some compressed air -  to see if anything comes out....

Offline ossietim

  • Posts: 118
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 03:15 AM »
You can also increase the dia of the small hose and fittings.
This will make it work faster.(Oneida should do this)
I run a 3/4" neg hose off my 30gal drum with 3 mil bags.
With the same cyclone.




It is "Know-how" which distinguishes the USEFUL Person from the "USELESS"

Books and Men can give you "Know-how and  Practice gives you skill.

Offline Jerry Sitton

  • Posts: 53
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 09:40 AM »
JSands, how you get the tube out is simple. Those fittings, you push the tube into the fitting. You'll notice an inner slip portion(small circle around tube) that moves with tube as you push it in. With your thumb nail or flat screwdriver, coin, hold that circle down as you are putting pressure on hose, then as you're keeping pressure on that ring, pull back on tube it'll slip right out. No need to hold it down putting it back, just push tube back in.
I've not had to do any of the things with my Oneida. Once the CT is turned on, about 3-5 seconds, I hear the bag and system seal and it's good to go. I've never had any bag try to come up in the cyclone. The suction on the tube in mine doesn't sound as you've described any more than yours, so I'm not sure what's going in with yours unless there is some sort of blockage. If I had to do whats been described to get it to work, I return that thing in a heartbeat. That would be frustrating.

Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 10:34 AM »
Jerry, yes, I assumed it was a "slip" fitting.... hand pressure would not allow the collor to move, hence why I tried to grab it with pliers, then I feared destroying the plastic outers... tube would not pull out.   In addition, I was not convinced the tube was obstructed, so did not want to risk it.   I have used these in the past, and sometimes they can be difficult to remove, specially when people wrap a bit of plumbers tape around the tube  :-)

Yeah, I hear ya, these things are frustrating....  but as with most of these low volume products, you always seem to be tweaking something, trying to interprate instructions, etc.  What's more frustrating, is why is it so hard to get a company like Onieda to call you back with such a simple question??  .... called 2x...this has become so common today with most American companies I deal with.   I have to admit, Festool realizes the value of customer service,  prob. "one" of the reasons for their success.

Agreed on the larger tubing and fittings, that would be advisable, but obviously for some, the current diam. size tubing / fitting works... the current size is probably on the edge of acceptability, hence the mixed bag of results.   

For my large Cyclones that use 30 gallon drums, I built sheet metal cylinder inserts which match the shape of the drums interior.   When removing full bags, I lift the sheet metal insert out with two handles that protude up through the dust.... not much dust agitation.   Overall, a good solution if you don't change bags every few hours  :-)   


 
 

Offline Jerry Sitton

  • Posts: 53
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 01:26 PM »
You know this stuff pretty well, do you think it could be the cyclone itself? I was thinking of the few I've had, there was always enough down force that should keep the bags from flying up?? I've never used a bag till this one. I just took the 20 gallon can to the ravine and dumped it, I lived in the country.
Just curious, are you seeing the bag come up to the cyclone?

Offline woodnerd

  • Posts: 91
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2011, 02:18 PM »
I wanted to put a bag in my shop cyclone, but as you know the problem is that it'll suck the bag up.  Grizzly sells a gizmo that fits down in the barrel and holds the bag, but its ludicrously expensive.  I came up with my own version using a plywood ring and dowels, works as well and probably better than Grizzly's.  The same idea could be adapted to the UDD.

See http://www.thewoodnerd.com/workshop/dustCollection.html#collectionbin for details and a photo.

Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2011, 09:09 AM »
Jerry, yes, all cyclones pull air to its final destination...  heavy objects get caught in the cyclone path and gravity drop into the bin.  So with NO assistance, all bags pull up the cyclone.  The greater the vacuum force, the greater the suction to pull the bag up.  For my larger cyclone, I exhaust the final air outside the shop, no final filter, as that air has only microscopic size particles...these are the particles that pose danger to your lungs...its always better to simply exhaust them when possible, vs. trying to filter them..  Filters create resistance, which reduces air flow, the filters are also costly.   And no filter is traps 100% of dust in the exhaust air.   The smallest particles are what escapes, and unfortunately, they are the ones we should avoid.  This is the value of Festool and other Vacs that use large HEPA filters for max. filtration.   

Of course the downside is, when you exhaust the cyclone air, you must bring in and equal volume of outside air to compensate, hence why you must consider the climate of your area as heating / cooling cost can be substantial if you run the dust collector a lot.  This was a contribution from Bill Pentz, who has spent years crusading for better dust collection after years of serious suffering from his lung condition brought on by wood dust.  He is a very generous and caring person and really did open our eyes to the dangers of wood dust.    He has a great web site regarding these matters.   The woodworking community should applaud his efforts, but yet, on some forums he gets banned....which is terrible IMO.   Supposedly it has to do with comments comments regarding other companies products...

Woodnerd has built an excellent solution to hold the bags down... I actually dreamed up the same concept, but used sheet metal to create a similar shape.   Occasionally, I will forget to put the "hold down" in the drum after replacing the bag, and when the cyclone turns on, it pulls the bag straight up the 8" supply duct...serious suction...    Of course, your system is the easiest approach to the problem,  don't use a bag :-)   ...  some wood dust is extremely toxic and will kill animals, so one must beware where they are dumping it. 


 


Offline Alan m

  • Posts: 3312
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2011, 06:57 PM »
+1 to bill pentz. dont know him personally only his work. it is amazing that every time a thread starts on any forum about DC his name comes up but jet he gets no credible thanks from the industry. it is wrong that he gets banned from forums for voicing his concernes about companies who flout the law and use the patent system to their own favour . i wont say any more :-X because i dont want to get banned [scared]but this is the only this stoping me buying from the company involved ;)as i would love there smallest offering but wouldnt buy from a company that wouldnt give credit where it is due.
i hope bill sues this company for intelectual property rights and wins. serves them right.

i wish bill would become a member here on the fog as his insight into the world of dc would be welcomed.
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Offline JSands

  • Posts: 194
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2011, 11:32 PM »
Nice post Alan, very well said.... 

Back to the UDD.   Started it up today, and whamo, the bag sucked up the cyclone again.  There was only an inch of dust in it from prior use, not enough weight to keep the bag down... so my question still stands.   Are you suppose to start the Vac each time with the hose disconnected from the cyclone, wait till the small tube sucks the bag to the walls, then re attach the hose? 

 

Offline LB Floors

  • Posts: 18
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 03:48 AM »
I had this issue. Long story short the pipe that sucks the bag into the wall of the DD is too small.
The thread in the DD is standard 1/4"... same as a standard air hose fitting.
Use air hose. More suck.
If you pay in peanuts you get monkeys.

Offline Bob D.

  • Posts: 1394
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2019, 06:47 AM »
Two possible issues I don't believe have been mentioned are:

1. Bag has a small hole in it. Could have been punctured by a
   sharp object or a bad seam in the bag during manufacture.

2. Leak in tubing or leaky/bad connection at a tube fitting.
-----
It's a table saw, do you know where your fingers are?

Offline aloysius

  • Posts: 349
Re: Ultimate Dust Deputy - Bag sucks up to cyclone
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2019, 07:39 AM »
Never had any issues with mine whilst mounted on a CT22.

Then again, the vac is rarely if ever running @ flat maggot these days either.  Most of my sawing, sanding & routing duties are usually run @ 25-75% throttle since I ditched the Kapex.

Are you absolutely sure that your wee blue tap on the low pressure line is completely turned all the way on?  As with most ball valves, the valve lever should be "in line" with the vac line, not perpendicular, when fully opened.  Given its relatively small & restrictive ID, perhaps shortening the low pressure line (as much as practical) could help transfer greater negative pressure.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 08:08 AM by aloysius »
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