Author Topic: TSO rail square not square  (Read 11762 times)

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Offline afish

  • Posts: 1459
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2020, 02:18 PM »
Since I know its hard to picture sometimes I drew this up real quick and also had an idea.  If you attached a piece of non slip rubber to the bottom of the square it would help a ton.  The biggest issue I had was the blade of the square was thin enough to cause issues trying to make sure the track was tight against it but not overhanging at all and the non skid rubber on the track would tend to move the square having a non skid on the square and also spacing it up a small amount would fix both those issues. 

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Offline LumberSmith

  • Posts: 14
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #31 on: November 25, 2020, 03:24 PM »
I just took it to Woodcraft and after having 3 employees look at it on 3 Festool rails, we all concluded it’s the rail square. They were off by the same amount I was at home (1/16” over 34”). That’s now 5 rails it’s been tested on and same results so I feel confident it’s not a Festool rail issue. Pretty disappointed but it is what it is.

Thanks for everyone’s input and opinions.

Offline afish

  • Posts: 1459
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #32 on: November 25, 2020, 03:31 PM »
return it and get the MTR.  Its more useful in my opinion.

Offline LumberSmith

  • Posts: 14
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2020, 04:27 PM »
I just got off the phone with Hans and he is going to send me some trouble shooting pictures and information as well as ship me a new square on Monday. Obviously I’m happy with that kind of customer service and thought I’d share that with everyone.

Offline ram

  • Posts: 11
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2021, 04:39 PM »
I'm also one of the people that has NEVER managed to get a square cut with the grs-16. They weren't even very long cuts.
I have several machinist squares to check from and several festool rails to test with, none of the rails gave me a square cut.

- Clamping the rail or not, didn't make a difference.
- I cut the factory edge of the panel to get a clean edge
- Made sure the square was firmly pressed against the panel.

It was really frustrating seeing all those Youtubers getting "perfectly square" cuts without any effort and without even clamping the rail.
For the price I've payed, I'm very disappointed in the product. It's an expensive paperweight now.

Somewhat "glad" to see I'm not the only one with issues.
Please report back with an update if you managed (or not)  to solve your problem.


Offline Roachmill

  • Posts: 315
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2021, 06:24 PM »
If you've never managed to get a square cut then something is not right. I have two squares and used them for a lot of work that has both been checked carefully for square and where it would be easily visible to the eye were it not; with accurate results every time.

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 949
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2021, 11:21 AM »
At one time I had both the TSO squares (until the adapter cam out). The second one was not square. I looked at it with a magnifier and there was some hard debris on the edge that mates with the wood. Used my fingernail to remove it. Working with TSO they guessed it may have been from the anodizing process.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5863
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2021, 02:04 PM »
If you have a TSO square that you’re sure is not right, contact TSO and work something out. Or, get some shim stock and make it work. It a simple thing.

Offline TSO_Products

  • Retailer
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  • Posts: 467
    • TSO Products LLC
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2021, 06:27 PM »
I'm also one of the people that has NEVER managed to get a square cut with the grs-16. They weren't even very long cuts.

@ram - please drop us a note with your customer name and email  to attention;  Hans
info@tsoproducts.com so we can take care of you.
We don't leave anyone stranded if we can help it!

Hans

Offline PaulMarcel

  • Posts: 1576
    • Voilà, my blog
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2021, 10:54 PM »
My "not square" experience with the rail square was different. When I got it, I popped it on my FS-800 rail, put it on a piece of long scrap then made a scoring cut with the TS-75. Checked it with my square. It was off. hmm...

The design of the rail should have the back edge parallel to the rib. The rail square is CNCed and unlikely off. I checked my square. My square was off. It's "user serviceable" so I corrected the square, checked the rail square: dead on.
Visit my blog for Festool adventures
IG: @PaulMarcel328 - basically stories, mix of circus, woodworking, maybe gym stuffs... it's not an extension of my blog, /tedtalk

Offline ferntree

  • Posts: 18
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2022, 11:37 PM »
My square was off. It's "user serviceable" so I corrected the square, checked the rail square: dead on.

How do you correct the rail square?

Offline festal

  • Posts: 468
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2022, 07:33 AM »
My square was off. It's "user serviceable" so I corrected the square, checked the rail square: dead on.

How do you correct the rail square?

I think Paul is talking about his square was out of square not the tso square

Offline PaulMarcel

  • Posts: 1576
    • Voilà, my blog
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2022, 12:53 PM »
I think Paul is talking about his square was out of square not the tso square

Yes, that's correct. I could have written that more clearly. TSO square was dead on, my large square had fallen out of calibration. I used that cut piece actually to do the adjustment.
Visit my blog for Festool adventures
IG: @PaulMarcel328 - basically stories, mix of circus, woodworking, maybe gym stuffs... it's not an extension of my blog, /tedtalk

Online NiteWalkerGR

  • Posts: 143
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2022, 02:28 PM »
Yes, that's correct. I could have written that more clearly. TSO square was dead on, my large square had fallen out of calibration. I used that cut piece actually to do the adjustment.
Paul, I just wanted to say your videos on festool products are some of the best available, especially the domino. I do miss you making videos, but you gotta keep yourself happy too. Thanks.

On topic, my FS/WA 90 (festool branded version of the GRS16PE) is dead on.

Offline ferntree

  • Posts: 18
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2022, 08:38 PM »
I think Paul is talking about his square was out of square not the tso square

Yes, that's correct. I could have written that more clearly. TSO square was dead on, my large square had fallen out of calibration. I used that cut piece actually to do the adjustment.

Ah. I took it to mean you adjusted your rail square. I was using my thinnest feeler gauge and was getting a consistent gap throughout different spots on the lengths of all 3 of my rails. I wound up using a piece aluminum foil folded twice to get it spot on. I’m gonna email TSO to see what tolerance it should be at. I’m not opposed to keeping that foil there. Or maybe grind the anodizing off the opposite side to get it perfect. I’ve almost given up trying to keep my MFT square for more than one cut.



Offline mino

  • Posts: 1281
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2022, 05:15 PM »
Got the pictures here.
@LumberSmith

I do not want to spam too much but I have to make two points:

1) The "engineer's square" you used to check is NOT an "engineers square" and 100% the gap you see is because the "engineer's" square is not square while the GRS is /within tollerance/.

How I know - No precise (engineer's) square has distance marks on itself like the square you used has - making these marks would create tension in the metal and affect the accuracy ..
For your reference, here is how a precise engineer's square looks. This is a DIN class 1 /which is about the precision the GRS is made to/:
https://shop.kinexmeasuring.com/en/precision-flat-square-kinex-300x200-mm-din-875-1-p8471c22c34/

Notice the square has no distance marks and the material thickness is 8mm for a 200x300 pieces. That is required as a thinner one could not maintain its shape sufficiently for the precision.

/I am not familiar with US metrology classes, so those from US please feel free to give an equivalent US class./

2) the back of the rail may not be /absolutely/ parallel with the rail ALONG ITS ENTIRE LENGTH, remember, the reference surface is the one where the saw rides /not the back edge/ AND the rail is guaranteeed to be straight along its entire length within a certain tollerance. NOT at its beginning. To check if this is not your problem, try using the square on the other side of the rail.

I have this issue with one of my rails as it starts a bit "off" - by about 0.05 mm (0.002") on the 150mm square interface distance which puts the cuts off by about 0.5 mm (0.02") over the 1.4 meters of the rail which can be too much at times when combined with other errors.
I found out the hard way and that is why I now recommend the Festool FS-WA above the GRS as someones first or only rail square. It has to be calibrated - so you need a proper engineer's square to go along, but it CAN be calibrated. Unlike a fixed square. So even non-absolutely-straght rail starts or bad technique causing systemic errors can be weeded out /at the cost of fiddling/.

Hope helps.

The first thing I would do - in your shoes - is to get a proper engineer's square so you have some known reference. You will want to have it either way. No matter the outcome with the GRS. You need to shoot for DIN class 1 or better (equivalent) for it to be useful here. - for a 200x300 sqaure that makes 0.025mm max error over the 300 mm /notice that is only 1/4 of the error I have which  already causes me problems/. Yeah, the reference square really needs to be that precise, ideally even better. The GRS 16 generally is at DIN class 1 /from my checks of the Festool version, that is/.

Second, I would try making cuts when the square is attached, e.g. to the middle of the rail. And see where it gets you. So the GRS is attached at a different position on the rail than on the usual "start" one. Using a different section for the reference.
The Machine has no brains. Use Yours!

Offline ferntree

  • Posts: 18
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2022, 09:08 PM »

. . .2) the back of the rail may not be /absolutely/ parallel with the rail ALONG ITS ENTIRE LENGTH, remember, the reference surface is the one where the saw rides /not the back edge/ AND the rail is guaranteeed to be straight along its entire length within a certain tollerance. NOT at its beginning. To check if this is not your problem, try using the square on the other side of the rail.

I have this issue with one of my rails as it starts a bit "off" - by about 0.05 mm (0.002") on the 150mm square interface distance which puts the cuts off by about 0.5 mm (0.02") over the 1.4 meters of the rail which can be too much at times when combined with other errors. . .

Funny you mention this. I spoke with TSO and they told me their product is good. Probably my rail. I slide the GRS up and down the rail finding the sweet spot that allows my track saw to make the longest cut that is also “square enough” for me. I still shim it with foil and made reference marks if I need to move the GRS to a longer rail.

Does Festool guarantee the back of the rail to be straight? Or will picking a straight rail be like picking straight boards. Going to Rockler or woodcraft with my square and GRS and testing to find a “straight” guide rail. 

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 402
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2022, 06:11 AM »
Going to Rockler or woodcraft with my square and GRS and testing to find a “straight” guide rail.

This reminds me of the Mr. Bean episode where he is shopping for a potato peeler and frying pan.



Offline kitfit1

  • Posts: 16
Re: TSO rail square not square
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2022, 08:15 AM »
Going to Rockler or woodcraft with my square and GRS and testing to find a “straight” guide rail.

This reminds me of the Mr. Bean episode where he is shopping for a potato peeler and frying pan.



 [big grin] [big grin] A classic  [thumbs up]