Author Topic: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail  (Read 9381 times)

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Offline Eiji Fuller

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TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« on: February 13, 2007, 02:15 AM »
 Hi everyone,

I am the proud owner of a TS75 with guide rails. I have been very satisfied so far.

I have an upcoming project that includes numerous veneered columns. They are square columns 14 1/2" x 14 1/2" x 7-8', constructed out of veneered mdf with mitered corners.

I built a small mock up out of scrap mdf to test the operation and noticed a couple of things that concern me.


1. When cutting the staves the actual cut is about 1 mm away from the rubber edge of the guide rail. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this saw engineered to have the blade enter the material cut at the same point at any bevel?

2. After cutting the staves for the columns and placing them edge to edge and face up; there is a gap of .75 -  1 mm in the middle. This is consistent with all the pieces. How could this be if when cutting at 90 deg. the cut is absolutely straight?

Eiji

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Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2007, 02:59 AM »
Was there sag when you cut them? Is it one guide rail or two connected?
When cutting angles the boards must be dead straight and supported along the length.
Sometimes the 9' guide may flex in the center. support the center
The stress on the blade/saw/guide is completly different when cutting mitres, compared to a 90deg. cut.
All these problems went away for me when I did the things I have discribed.
Remember, when you cut at a 45deg. you are pushing the saw into your work, so there is greater chance of flex.
Hope this helps.

Mirko
« Last Edit: February 13, 2007, 03:01 AM by Mirko »

Offline Lou Miller

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2007, 04:52 AM »
Hi everyone,

I am the proud owner of a TS75 with guide rails. I have been very satisfied so far.

I have an upcoming project that includes numerous veneered columns. They are square columns 14 1/2" x 14 1/2" x 7-8', constructed out of veneered mdf with mitered corners.

I built a small mock up out of scrap mdf to test the operation and noticed a couple of things that concern me.


1. When cutting the staves the actual cut is about 1 mm away from the rubber edge of the guide rail. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this saw engineered to have the blade enter the material cut at the same point at any bevel?

2. After cutting the staves for the columns and placing them edge to edge and face up; there is a gap of .75 -  1 mm in the middle. This is consistent with all the pieces. How could this be if when cutting at 90 deg. the cut is absolutely straight?

Eiji

Couple of things that I've noticed using my saw (TS55, but its the 75's little brother) that might help you.

When cutting bevels, if the saw lifts off the rail even the slightest amount, it will throw the cut off. Festool recomends that you make a cut at 0 degrees first and then, without moving the rail, set the bevel and cut again. At first, I thought this extra step was kind of silly. However, I've noticed that it makes a difference. A large portion of the material that needs to be removed is done so on the first pass and if the saw lifts then, it doesn't affect the cut at all. The second pass is much easier on the saw and lessens the chance of any movement from the saw. If you haven't tried it this way, make a couple of cuts like I just said and see if it helps. It makes a difference for me.

The other thing that might help you is supporting your material better. Are you providing full support under the work piece while cutting? If there's any sag at all (like if you have the piece just supported at both ends for example), that could throw the cut off too. Again, try that and see if it helps. Many here use foam as a way to support their cut pieces. I personally use 2x4s. Either method works fine as long as the whatever you're using supports the the work piece for the entire length of the cut.

Both of these suggestion might be meaningless as you could already be doing them, but I figured I'd toss them out there for you anyway. Somethings wrong with either your saw or your setup though. I make beveled cuts all the time and don't have the problems you've mentioned.

Offline Mike Turner

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2007, 06:15 AM »
I have had the same problem with my TS75 saw. When I follow a 0 deg. cut with a 45 deg. cut the edge ends up being about .03 short. When I join two pieces to make a 90 deg. joint, it makes an unsightly edge.
Mike

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2007, 02:38 PM »
When I cut bevels I always hold one hand down on the chassis of the saw, this keeps it tight to the guide rail. I always support the piece I'm cutting, so I can push down hard.
Cutting bevels on boards with cupping can be a pain, the cuts become "Bananas" but i find once you tape the two parts together and fold them together, the tape will do a good job pulling them tight.
I cover the joint completly with tape, use cross pieces to pull together, and a piece along the length to keep the glue in the joint. Some people like fiberglass reinforced tape, not me though, its a pain to cut.
Once the parts are folded into a box, I burnish the edges with a screw driver, this will roll over the veneer and close up any gaps, in fact I always burnish the edges of a mitred joint, regardless how tight it is. That way the wood is compressed, not sanded away, it do'nt take much to expose the MDF. :'(

Its also good practice to do what lou Miller suggested, to cut 90 first then 45.

This post was intended for general know how, a tip to fix bad cuts.
Not so much directed at Warrior, who may already know.

Mirko

Offline Eiji Fuller

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2007, 02:37 AM »
Mirko,

If the long point of the bevel cut is off edge of the splinter guard, how do you propose I do the 90 deg. cut first then repeat at 45? reposition the rail?
Can anyone help me with that one? Shouldnt this saw cut the long point or the toe of the bevel cut at the same point of the 90 deg. cut?

Do I have a defective saw or is this common? I thought the whole point of the bevel cuts all breaking through in the same line was that I would not need a rail for each angle.

Regarding support of the stock- I felt as if the stock was supported adequately but will give another test with continuous support and report back.

Thank you for the replies.

warrior

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2007, 03:26 AM »
Mirko,

If the long point of the bevel cut is off edge of the splinter guard, how do you propose I do the 90 deg. cut first then repeat at 45? reposition the rail?
Can anyone help me with that one? Shouldnt this saw cut the long point or the toe of the bevel cut at the same point of the 90 deg. cut?

Do I have a defective saw or is this common? I thought the whole point of the bevel cuts all breaking through in the same line was that I would not need a rail for each angle.

Regarding support of the stock- I felt as if the stock was supported adequately but will give another test with continuous support and report back.

Thank you for the replies.

warrior

My TS 75 will cut 90 then cut a sharp 45 bevel, without moving the rail.
Have you tried cutting this way? If your saw can't do that, then I would have to say there is somthing wrong with the saw.
The rubber on my guide rails are about 1 mm to short, I allow for this when setting up a cut. Over time the saw blade will flex and chip away at the rubber.

I hope your saw is ok :-\
Good luck

Mirko

Offline Cynric Williams

  • Posts: 22
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2007, 04:09 AM »
My TS 75 will cut 90 then cut a sharp 45 bevel, without moving the rail.
Mirko
This is the way I make the cuts and I have no problem but I do clamp the rails, as other people have said any movement throws the bevel out. When you bevel mdf mind out for the beveled edge as it is razor sharp and can cause a really nasty cut.

Offline Brian 57

  • Posts: 55
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2007, 07:06 AM »
Mirko,
When you say that the rubber on your guiderail is about 1mm too short, (which I take to mean 1mm inside the cutline), has it always been like this?
I have a TS55 and a 1400 rail  and while the rubber frayed a bit after a lot of cutting over a year, (admittedly without many angled cuts), I would guess that 90% of it was on the cutline.
I only replaced it, (a few of your bucks), as I wanted to join two 1400's together to cut a 8' sheet. I cut the connected  rails, both with new rubbers, to get the rubber on both rails to match up. I think I would be a bit concerned if I saw any sign that any nibbling away of the rubber by the blade was in other than a few places, TS75 or not, angled cuts or not.
Regards

Offline woodshopdemos

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2007, 01:29 PM »
I have read every post here with great interest. I think I am getting away with murder. I just came in from shop shooting this weeks update which is on cutting miter rips for folding into legs...exactly what  is being described here. I say "getting away with murder" because my end results are picture perfect. I am using a 1080 MFT and cutting on the long side. I am using the TS55.  I am rotating and inverting the stock for the 2nd cut...I just assume this will adjust for any miter setting discrepancy.  I work at keeping one hand on the left side of the base and pressed down to counter the tippiness and I have used dri-lubricant on the guide rail. I am using MDF for the test run; zebrastriped for the final). I assembled the legs with tape for a dry fit and have 4 (count them, 4) perfect corners. This afternoon, I plan to use Domino for first time on the 45 degree angle.
In memory of John Lucas (1937 - 2010)

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2007, 02:46 PM »
Anyone with table saw experience will know, that when you cut a bevel on sheet goods that have a “Cup”  the saw kerf will bow in or out depending which way the board was cut. The safest way would be to use a power feed, unfortunately this takes time to set up, the alternative is, push down with all your weight while pushing it through the blade.
This is a “white Knuckle” procedure, I try to avoid this at all cost.
My preferred set up, has always been, what I call “Zero Mitre” This involves  tipping the blade into a sacrificial fence. once set up correctly you may pass the boards through, and the bevel is cut off from underneath.
What is nice about doing it this way is, if the board where to creep away from the fence you can do multiple passes to remove the unwanted material.
Only one down side to this, zero mitre and that’s material thickness, they all have to be exactly the same thickness. If the wood is thicker it will leave a “flat” on the point of the mitre  And opposite for thinner boards, the width will begin to be removed.

What I am finally trying to get to is: once I started using the Festool I really said goodbye to these problems for ever!  Or did I?
My thoughts were “ well hey! if the saw follows the bow and is tight it will be fine” this is not true, in the case of the TS75 the base or “Footprint” is bigger than the 55. I think it gives more chance of the saw body coming up off the work piece and affecting the bevel. Or is the saw blade riding up and pulling the saw off the guide rail?
Its very hard to see whats happening under the saw, to really pin point.

I hope people can chime in here and add there thoughts, it would be interesting to hear what others have done, and there solutions.

When the TS75 is used with the MFT, it is a whole other story, because the work piece is sandwiched between the table and guide, the results are flawless!

Mirko
« Last Edit: February 14, 2007, 02:48 PM by Mirko »

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2007, 03:11 PM »
Brian57,

The rubber is aprox. .5 to 1mm short. Keep in mind I use my saw in my shop and on the field so it gets more of an a$$ kicking, Than if it where used for hobby only.
I take good care of my Festools, and some times feel bad, putting them in full on production situations.
I have the replacement rubber strip and will replace it soon, and will keep an eye on what happens to the rubber.

Mirko

Offline Brian 57

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2007, 04:49 PM »
Good luck. Look forward to hearing what your experience is once you have cut in the new rubber strip.
Regards

Offline CharlesWilson

  • Posts: 458
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2007, 01:50 PM »
Bob Marino mentioned to me that you can reuse the existing strip a few times before replacement is necessary. Has anyone else done this?
Charles Wilson

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2007, 02:36 PM »
Bob Marino mentioned to me that you can reuse the existing strip a few times before replacement is necessary. Has anyone else done this?

I was thinking of trying that. Who has moved the 4 set screws on the base of the saw?? I would think just budging it over a mill or so would work?
What are some of the things to look out for?

Mirko
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 02:48 PM by Mirko »

Offline Lou Miller

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2007, 02:44 PM »
Bob Marino mentioned to me that you can reuse the existing strip a few times before replacement is necessary. Has anyone else done this?

My strips have been on my guide rails for well over a year now. They've been moved several times each. I just pull the strip off and put it back on a little further over from where it was and make a new cutline in it. Sometimes the adhesive on the back is still good enough to be reused, sometimes it isn't. I just hit the back of the rubber with some spray adhesive if it needs it.


Offline Dave Ronyak

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2007, 01:39 AM »

I was thinking of trying that. Who has moved the 4 set screws on the base of the saw?? I would think just budging it over a mill or so would work?
What are some of the things to look out for?

Mirko

Mirko,  don't forget if you loosen the set screws that secure the base of the saw, you will have to reset the leading edge "toe-in", trailing edge "toe-out" of the blade to maintain the best cutting performance of your saw.  Moving or replacing the edge strip is much simpler and faster.

Dave R.
Friends, family and Festools make for a good retirement.  PCs...I'm not so sure.

Offline Mirko

  • Posts: 394
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2007, 02:17 AM »


I was thinking of trying that. Who has moved the 4 set screws on the base of the saw?? I would think just budging it over a mill or so would work?
What are some of the things to look out for?

Mirko

Mirko,  don't forget if you loosen the set screws that secure the base of the saw, you will have to reset the leading edge "toe-in", trailing edge "toe-out" of the blade to maintain the best cutting performance of your saw.  Moving or replacing the edge strip is much simpler and faster.

Dave R.


Dave thanks, thats what I wanted to hear, I will stick to the simple fix by re/re the rubber.  ;)
If I loosen the four screws I will have to get the saw calibrated by top members of the state AND federal Department of Weights and Measures... to be dead on balls accurate!  ;D

Mirko

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2007, 05:35 PM »
Bob Marino mentioned to me that you can reuse the existing strip a few times before replacement is necessary. Has anyone else done this?

My strips have been on my guide rails for well over a year now. They've been moved several times each. I just pull the strip off and put it back on a little further over from where it was and make a new cutline in it. Sometimes the adhesive on the back is still good enough to be reused, sometimes it isn't. I just hit the back of the rubber with some spray adhesive if it needs it.


I've moved rubber strips several times too. I set the guide on the bench so the business edge overhangs the bench, rubber side up. I run a heat gun along the aluminum side to warm it up enough to soften the adhesive and rubber. Then, gently pull the rubber from the adhesive strip (the adhesive usually stays tight on the aluminum) about a foot at a pull, and set it back down (loosely) on the adhesive. When I've gone to the far end of the guide rail I go back to the beginning and start repositioning the rubber. If this is the first time the rubber has been moved you can easily judge how far over to move the rubber by the distance to the groove in the aluminum that a new strip nests into. I usually move the strip a little more than a half millimeter though I had to move 2 mm once after a long session with the Panther blade.

When the rubber is repositioned it should be pressed down. The initial tack is low but gets much better over time. I'd avoid adding spray adhesive so the thickness of the edge isn't changed which could adversely affect bevel cuts. Don't use a roller. I get good results from hitting a block of wood with a hammer (after the guide is back up on the bench).

Offline Tinker

  • Posts: 3758
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2007, 09:22 AM »
I have read every post here with great interest. I think I am getting away with murder. I just came in from shop shooting this weeks update which is on cutting miter rips for folding into legs...exactly what  is being described here. I say "getting away with murder" because my end results are picture perfect. I am using a 1080 MFT and cutting on the long side. I am using the TS55.  I am rotating and inverting the stock for the 2nd cut...I just assume this will adjust for any miter setting discrepancy.  I work at keeping one hand on the left side of the base and pressed down to counter the tippiness and I have used dri-lubricant on the guide rail. I am using MDF for the test run; zebrastriped for the final). I assembled the legs with tape for a dry fit and have 4 (count them, 4) perfect corners. This afternoon, I plan to use Domino for first time on the 45 degree angle.
As John has done, i have read all of the above posts.  As i read the original post)question) I had the same reply in mnd as John.  If you put your saw down on the guide bar, You will find the saw has a serious tendency to tip over.  I do not put any more presure on the saw itself when making bevel cuts than is absolutely necessary.  I do all of the pushing with my left hand on the base plate of the saw.  I also lube the guide bar before making the cuts.  I have not tried many bevel cuts, but have had no problems while useing this proceedure. Maybe I saw John doing it on his site  ;)
Tinker
Wayne H. Tinker

Offline CharlesWilson

  • Posts: 458
Re: TS75 bevel cutting with guide rail
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2007, 10:30 AM »
The posts here have been genuinely useful. I gave a 45 degree bevel a try yesterday, and noticed that it was dead on upon entering the board (came to a point just at the rubber edge), but sagged about 1.5mm towards the end of the cut (the blade was cutting about 1.5mm below the rubber edge upon exit). After scratching my head and checking my setup, I determined that the rail was twisting up towards the end, and thus lowering the blade a bit.

After making some adjustments, I reduced the sag to about 0.5 mm, but still have some tweaks to make before trying to cut any workpieces. I am putting bevels on boards that are up to 7 inches wide. I would appreciate any suggestions for tuning up the support of the guide rail so that the saw (a TS 75) doesn't sag at the end of the cut.

Charles
Charles Wilson