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FESTOOL DISCUSSIONS => Festool Tools & Accessories => Topic started by: fire7x on March 08, 2020, 07:34 PM

Title: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: fire7x on March 08, 2020, 07:34 PM
Garage lacks lighting

I’m thinking of the Syslite DUO LED light for the space?

Otherwise I’d have to install permanent light fixture. 

Would this work well?

I need more lighting and like the idea it’s mobile.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: CarlsonCarpentry on March 08, 2020, 07:51 PM
At $20 a piece (after coupon) these are priceless. No wiring just plug in. Could light a large garage with 4-6.
I had two large Milwaukee m18 radius lights hanging from my ceiling ($200-some) and one of these leds replaces those and works much better.
Just an idea.

https://www.harborfreight.com/4-Ft-LED-Hanging-Shop-Light-64410.html
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: fire7x on March 08, 2020, 08:03 PM
I’ve thought of that but the ceiling is so low already I’m not sure I want anything hanging from it.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 08, 2020, 09:50 PM
One of the great things about the new led shop lights is the light weight. So easy to install! Could nearly tape them up.

Recently HD online had these things on sale. (https://www.homedepot.com/p/EnviroLite-138-Watt-2-ft-White-Integrated-LED-Backlit-High-Bay-Hanging-Light-with-18000-Lumens-5000K-with-5-ft-Cord-and-Plug-HB218DMDPE/306518937) I bought a few and after installing I had to buy a visor to keep them out of my line of sight. 18k lumens  [eek]
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: denovo on March 09, 2020, 12:31 AM
You would need at least two to properly light a workshop/garage and avoid harsh shadows that make it hard to work.  A large two car garage would probably need three.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: mrB on March 09, 2020, 09:12 AM
Multiple lights are definitely going to serve you better I think.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Bert Vanderveen on March 09, 2020, 09:38 AM
The Duo is overkill. It puts out a LOT of light. I bought one shortly after its introduction, but traded it for a bunch of plywood.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Gregor on March 09, 2020, 07:02 PM
In recent months I used https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01FSRRX18/ (no advertisement, just for something to look at), which at ~14€ are cheap enough (ok, getting them directly from china would likely drop the price to a single digit) to not really care about that part.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: jonnyrocket on March 10, 2020, 11:17 AM
I agree that there are better options. I purchased 3 of these 6-packs. My garage/shop is lit like daylight. I couldn’t be happier. They’ve been installed for a little over 2 years without any issues.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HBT3BVM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_U86zEbWB74CDK
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 18, 2020, 12:02 PM
I agree that there are better options. I purchased 3 of these 6-packs. My garage/shop is lit like daylight. I couldn’t be happier. They’ve been installed for a little over 2 years without any issues.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HBT3BVM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_U86zEbWB74CDK

Thanks to the suggestion from @jonnyrocket I recently replaced all of the 8' & 4' fluorescent fixtures in the basement with a 10-pack of 8' Barrina LED sticks.

The fluorescent lights were 4000K x 75 watts, and a total of 4 tubes = 300 watts.

The Barrina LED's are 5000K x 72 watts, and a total of 3 tubes = 216 watts.

So 3 tubes of LED's easily put out twice the luminosity of the 4 fluorescent tubes. The LED lighting is brighter, whiter, has better color rendering, has a wider beam spread and actually makes the room seem larger because they don't hang so far down on the floor joists.

Installation is a breeze, 2 screws & 2 brackets. Forget the chains, "S" hooks and all the rest of the nonsense.

So 10 Barrina LED's replaced 8 each 8' fluorescents and 10 each 4' fluorescents. 720 watts vs 1000 watts & at least twice the amount of light.  [big grin]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=emc_b_5_t

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: rst on March 18, 2020, 12:13 PM
These are fantastic lights, I bought a six pack of eight footers for my shop.  Liked them so much that I bought a pack of four footers so that I could replace the various 12 of fluorescent lights in my closets by connecting them with eight footers.  My wife is also enthralled with the illumination.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: StanB on March 18, 2020, 07:04 PM
I also have these 8ft leds. 15 units. Crazy bright.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6Ci4jYB16tlFVzVGxmPDbLUNArQ5q8933hvJBtVnIofS_K7jttqdbjV_8rG_wfNk9rc6fjVHm10sLSZFpvlTEoRaKij-XEvCsLDjwvUWv6Ar3HLCib4WpYzPT1Yy6NMy_89luvE841sXEk3rsGHjRn2TU_hhn6UCcUf8MTHzRR6pYbpK3H-nAgBf7QtV03awVVqfVLZ7LpkYlepT7dNpm57BFXTYQZw96blJu-94X_XNvcNyxPft029BRDaISZXscK2VCk4w1oGdN5u_WwrDvQshC4Bm_A7s5hhRO7sk10Dye14mXpq98IkVLkilbUow-r_z5Ns1pcrqft2Wq3_-LFwtRYz3WLWVj9Z9jaqgFiYwxa6mv8uvR5tfuT62gpMxgEBhY2Ra9D1ZbisWXFrTo8qt8a0pCjmvpkctZV1j9VBvSxYxOgdqITyqpaHIo9EQbIEEz4QYtWeQR0Ai1pnqD9cHxghO7xKPgdrCT_Vyko2Kc_C7zv7y03DNo3Mn16bm8r-TJf-AZY-0GmXahS1TsJLwbnYf9MZwwW7e7N7OO32athxw7rUpN-qFC16gb61gl969aoLmBpc2NHNNL653mMNy2_G6RIKjEBwg7y96oPHr_zK3ijYjD39evWtHm76y0eglzombJjXCNxo0FC6mt9zMUErzMi7Q2IicBOblosSH0ZIc_-mntlK0WVdCNSw=w1758-h1318-no)
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Rick Herrick on March 18, 2020, 07:17 PM
I also have these 8ft leds. 15 units. Crazy bright.

I would never leave that shop.  Man, thats some nice room to move around.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Gregor on March 19, 2020, 11:54 AM
I would like to buy them, but they don't seem to be easily available in the EU.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 19, 2020, 01:27 PM
I would like to buy them, but they don't seem to be easily available in the EU.

Try Amazon.de as they do have the 4 foot long version and the 8 foot long fluorescent lamp replacement version.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Rick Herrick on March 19, 2020, 02:45 PM
I just bought a 6-pack of the 4' version from Amazon last night.  Looking forward to them getting here.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: jeffinsgf on March 19, 2020, 03:45 PM
Thanks to the suggestion from @jonnyrocket I recently replaced all of the 8' & 4' fluorescent fixtures in the basement with a 10-pack of 8' Barrina LED sticks.

The fluorescent lights were 4000K x 75 watts, and a total of 4 tubes = 300 watts.

The Barrina LED's are 5000K x 72 watts, and a total of 3 tubes = 216 watts.

So 3 tubes of LED's easily put out twice the luminosity of the 4 fluorescent tubes. The LED lighting is brighter, whiter, has better color rendering, has a wider beam spread and actually makes the room seem larger because they don't hang so far down on the floor joists.

Installation is a breeze, 2 screws & 2 brackets. Forget the chains, "S" hooks and all the rest of the nonsense.

So 10 Barrina LED's replaced 8 each 8' fluorescents and 10 each 4' fluorescents. 720 watts vs 1000 watts & at least twice the amount of light.  [big grin]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07RKZFD5Z/ref=emc_b_5_t


Cheese, why did you choose the 5000K over 6500K? I've read some about the difference, but I'd like to hear your opinion.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Bert Vanderveen on March 19, 2020, 03:55 PM
6500 K is way more 'colder' than 5000 — it’t the range that printers, photographers, jewellers need to work to their standards. 5000 K is in the higher range of what people have in their homes and offices. It figures that in a production environment you try to have the same light conditions as the end user, to avoid disappointment regarding the finish etcetera.


IMO 3000 K is good enough, providing there are sufficient lumen on the objects you are handling. Spot lighting may be more towards the 5000 range.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 19, 2020, 05:05 PM
Bert nailed it on all aspects.  [big grin]  [big grin]

Jeff, 6500K is way too blue for me and I don’t think it renders colors as honestly either.

I think 5000K is pretty optimum.

At any rate...still stoked with the lighting changeover.  [cool]    Very high recommend.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: mike_aa on March 19, 2020, 10:02 PM
@Cheese  Did you hardwire the fixtures or use the plug in?

Mike A.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 19, 2020, 10:53 PM
@Cheese  Did you hardwire the fixtures or use the plug in?

Great question @mike_aa  and I mean that sincerely because in the past, fluorescent fixtures were meant to be hard wired while these LED tubes are really meant to be a plug and play item...ya that works for some, but I have a knee-jerk reaction to wiring these in that manner. Some may find that wire nuts are good enough. I'm not of that belief.

Safety first is my mantra, because for no other reason than I've been zapped by 120 volts many times before and each zap was not a pleasant experience. 

I typically use Molex connectors because of their current and voltage ratings and they've become a "standard" in the electrical connector arena.

I'll take some photos tomorrow as to how I've wired these Barrina tubes.  [big grin]

This becomes one of those little annoying things when you're supercharged and focused on installing a new lighting method...then comes the aw sh..t moment. It happened to me...it will happen to others.  [cool]




Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: mike_aa on March 19, 2020, 11:11 PM
Thanks @Cheese  I noticed that they list a hardwire option, but I wasn't clear how it worked.  Looking forward to your photos.

Mike A.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: StanB on March 19, 2020, 11:41 PM
Thanks @Cheese  I noticed that they list a hardwire option, but I wasn't clear how it worked.  Looking forward to your photos.

Mike A.

@mike_aa I just cut the cord by the switch and routed it thru the ceiling via 6mm hole to a junction box. Used wago fittings to connect in junction box.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: jeffinsgf on March 20, 2020, 07:54 AM
Bert nailed it on all aspects.  [big grin]  [big grin]

Jeff, 6500K is way too blue for me and I don’t think it renders colors as honestly either.

I think 5000K is pretty optimum.

At any rate...still stoked with the lighting changeover.  [cool]    Very high recommend.

Thanks, Bert & Cheese (sounds like a fast food order).  ;D

Just talked to the video guru here in the shop and he said the same thing. Ordering Barinna 5000Ks for my shop.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Sparktrician on March 20, 2020, 09:11 AM
Bert nailed it on all aspects.  [big grin]  [big grin]

Jeff, 6500K is way too blue for me and I don’t think it renders colors as honestly either.

I think 5000K is pretty optimum.

At any rate...still stoked with the lighting changeover.  [cool]    Very high recommend.

This graphic may help others understand the concept of color temperature.  The numbers shown are degrees Kelvin.  5500K is generally the ideal color temperature for light we perceive as being neutral. 

Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: RJNeal on March 20, 2020, 10:04 AM
Thanks Willy for the graphic.
Now that explains everything.
Prefect timing on this as I’m starting to set up my new shop.
Rick.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 20, 2020, 11:21 AM
One area of my shop has nice bright (10,000 lumen) lights at 4000*Kelvin. I like it.

Another area has a long strip of the 5K Barina lights about 2 feet from the wall. I like the Barina but I wish the light was aimed down more. I’m supplementing the strip with monster task lights over work stations, also 5K color 18k lumens.

The difference in color temperature is noticeable. I like the 4K better. It’s a good compromise between what we are used to as indoors and outdoors light. As sparktrician’s chart clearly shows the higher Kelvin the bluer the light. LED’s are already deficient in the lower wavelengths frequencies (red) and adding more blue doesn’t improve that.

A color rendering index rating in the low 80’s is better than most of the fluorescent lights we’re replacing but most of those old lights were the “cool white” variety (not as blue as the “daylight” range which was seldom used.

I wish all my lights were 4K color temp but I’m not doing critical color matching anymore so I can live with it. And it’s nice to think (theoretically) I’ll never have to mess with the lights again.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 20, 2020, 02:27 PM
Thanks @Cheese  I noticed that they list a hardwire option, but I wasn't clear how it worked.  Looking forward to your photos.

Mike just to give you a bit more info...in one area I used the supplied power cord with in-line switch. In the past I've had issues with this type of arrangement as usually the switch contacts are not robust enough and if you actually use the switch for its intended purpose the switch eventually fails completely or you can hear it arcing, not good.

In this particular application, the normal wall switch will do the actual switching and the in-line switch in the cord will always remain closed. Hopefully because of the small current draw this will not fry the in-line switch prematurely...don't know...I'll find out.  [blink]

[attachimg=1]


For the hard wired LED's this is what the options are, either a short 6" wire stub which is pretty useless or taking the 4' connecter pieces and cutting them to length. I cut the 4' connector piece to 2' and used that to attach to the Romex.

[attachimg=2]


This is the photo of the Romex + Molex connector + Barrina light connector. I used electrical tape temporarily but just ordered some 4:1 Shrinkflex heat shrink. I tried using the 2:1 heat shrink I already have but it didn't work very well.


[attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Jim_in_PA on March 21, 2020, 10:21 AM
All of my shop lighting is 4' LED lamps from Costco. Cost effective, simple and they plug in. It's like being on the beach in my shop. Work lamps are good for what they are designed for...task lighting, albeit over a larger area, but I wouldn't want to have to use them for general lighting in my shop space because of the height and angle of the lighting, etc. Plus...they are uber expensive compared to the kinds of fixtures I noted I'm using.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 21, 2020, 10:42 AM
If you do need to do color matching higher cri lamps are available at a minimum of 10 times the cost.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 21, 2020, 11:29 AM
Thanks @Cheese  I noticed that they list a hardwire option, but I wasn't clear how it worked.  Looking forward to your photos.

Mike, just to follow up on a statement I made earlier on the lack of robustness of these in-line switches I decided to pull one apart. After I disassembled the switch it confirms my previous evaluation...the switch contacts are pretty flimsy, being only .014" thick.

I'll turn this particular cord into a 5' cord for hard wiring the other 8' LED sticks.

I did however, locate a source for the electrical cords WITHOUT the in-line switches. They are available in 2' - 6' lengths.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2FT-3FT-4FT-5FT-6FT-US-Power-Cords-T5-T8-Integrated-Tube-Light-3-Pin-Plug-Cable/372746696111?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D225074%26meid%3D1420504283f4409ca7dc8066c29bd37c%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D30%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D372831026369%26itm%3D372746696111%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2386202%26algv%3DSimplAMLv5PairwiseWeb&_trksid=p2386202.c100677.m4598

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: mike_aa on March 21, 2020, 06:52 PM
@blaszcsj  @Cheese  Thanks for your responses.  Are the approaches you took safe enough and would they pass an electric inspection?  I'm always overly concerned when it comes to electricity.  When I was younger and got zapped, my hair turned into an afro.   [big grin]  Second time, it turned white!   [eek]

Mike A.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 23, 2020, 10:28 AM
Are the approaches you took safe enough and would they pass an electric inspection? 

The method that blaszcsj used would probably pass because it's all contained within a junction/electrical box.

My method would pass if you got the right inspector.  [smile]  The Molex connectors are designated as Power Connectors designed to be used in power supplies. The 3-contact housing with pins is rated for continuous service of 14 amps @ 250V and must withstand a dielectric test of 1500V for 60 seconds without breakdown.  It could be argued that the Molex connector is several times more robust than the 19 GA wire cable you get with the Barrina LED .  [smile]

I'll post a photo of the finished Molex connector once I receive the 4:1 heat shrink.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: StanB on March 23, 2020, 11:16 PM
@mike_aa you can only have three lights strung together so I have a junction box for each set of three units.

I did find out these bulbs suck a bit of juice (1100w total) and it was a little difficult to find a smart switch to toggle them.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 23, 2020, 11:31 PM
I did find out these bulbs suck a bit of juice (1100w total) and it was a little difficult to find a smart switch to toggle them.

Just curious that if you've used the 8' long LED's that draw 72 watts each and you ganged them in groups of 3, that'd be a total current draw of 216 watts. Where does the 1100 watts come in?

Unless you linked them all together in one continuous circuit which would make me nervous because of the 19 gauge power cable that Barrina supplies with the lights.

Because the Barrina 19 gauge power cable is a non-standard size, it isn't rated in the usual manner per se. It's rated at "less than 10 amps but greater than 5 amps."  With 120 volts incoming voltage this would put the capacity of the cable at less than 1200 watts but greater than 600 watts. If all of the above is indeed correct...you're right on the edge, or close to it if all of the Barrina lights are daisy-chained to one another.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: mike_aa on March 24, 2020, 11:22 AM
Thanks @Cheese  I noticed that they list a hardwire option, but I wasn't clear how it worked.  Looking forward to your photos.

Mike A.

@mike_aa I just cut the cord by the switch and routed it thru the ceiling via 6mm hole to a junction box. Used wago fittings to connect in junction box.

@blaszcsj  Thanks for the info, but I'm having a bit of trouble understanding.  It seems you are saying you drilled a hole in the ceiling (it sounds like it's finished) and ran the cut line cord to a junction box.  Is this correct?  Or am I not getting it?  Making the connection in a junction box makes sense, but I'm not sure about running the cord through the ceiling part since I thought that was not allowed.  Also, what grommet or cable clamp did you use to enter the junction box (or is it plastic and you don't need a grommet)?  The box I would be connecting to is metal.  @Cheese  used romex so I guess he would have used a regular cable clamp at a metal junction box or slipped it in if it's a plastic box.

Sorry for all the questions!  Mike A.

Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: StanB on March 24, 2020, 03:26 PM
@mike_aa yes, my ceiling is finished. And yes, you are correct a junction box must be accessible. My attic is accessible so I made all junction box connections up there. If I were having to do this in a basement and still wanted a clean look. I would drill the 6mm hole about 2" from the end of the light and pop in a round box with a blanking plate 2" from that. I would still make the junction accessible and provide a no mess wire solution. make sense?
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Michael Kellough on March 24, 2020, 05:05 PM
The Barrina shop lights have an angle of coverage of around 240 degrees. Much of the light is cast up towards the ceiling so a finished ceiling that will reflect the light back down would be best.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on March 29, 2020, 03:03 PM
Hey Mike @mike_aa , here's a shot of the Molex connector after the 4:1 heat shrink is applied.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]


And here's a shot of the power cord with the integral switch removed. That gave me a 60" long cable for hard wiring as opposed to a 46" long cable. A short piece of 14 ga solid copper wire spliced in did the job.

[attachimg=3]

[attachimg=4]

[attachimg=5]
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: rvieceli on May 20, 2020, 06:51 AM
@Cheese Since you have been living with these lights for a few months, how are you liking them? Do you have any problems with the clear covers rather than frosted?

thanks

Ron
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on May 20, 2020, 08:37 AM
@Cheese Since you have been living with these lights for a few months, how are you liking them? Do you have any problems with the clear covers rather than frosted?

Hey Ron @rvieceli I'm still enjoying the light  [smile]  matter of fact, I purchased some 4 foot versions and installed them into other small areas in the basement. The absolutely best move I made. I like the clear covers...I'm fine with them.

A few items...
1. There's a thin plastic film on the clear covers to protect them from scratching during shipment. It's hard to see and it's also easier to remove before they are mounted.

2. The mounting clips are flimsy and can be easily bent out of shape when pressing the Barrina light stick into the clips. My solution is to double the clips up inside each other so the each clip now has a double thickness. Even so, the double thickness clips can still be bent if you're not careful.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: rvieceli on November 12, 2020, 04:20 PM
Thought I’d resurrect this thread......

Based on folks experience with the Barrina lights, I decided to order a 6 pack of 8 foot 5000K. I just finished installing them today and it’s like day time in the shop. Very easy installation, chalk lined three rows, screwed in the clips and hooked them. Ended up with three rows of two eight footers.

Very nice indeed. Thanks @Cheese for your follow up after living with them for a while. 

Ron
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Bertotti on November 12, 2020, 05:11 PM
Nice thread the T5 fluorescent in my laundry room is dead and now is the time to change these look like a good option. I already put corn led bulbs in my unfinished basement but I am a fan of daylight bulbs so that's what they are. I'll have to order some of these and try them. I'm in SD so I wonder if anyone locally will carry them. I like to buy local first if possible and cost-prohibitive. Then again I get to the bigger cities in Minnesota routinely so maybe I can find them there if not here.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: rst on November 12, 2020, 05:50 PM
I have 10' high trusses on 4' centers 30' wide space.  I mounted 3 8'ers on each for a total of 18 daylight units.  I have absolutely no shadows anywhere.  I do not have power yet, I'm using my Honda 2200 for power for now, definitely tell there is a load when plugged.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED or Barrina LED's for workshop/garage?
Post by: Cheese on November 12, 2020, 06:27 PM
Hey @Bertotti  I also tried to purchase them locally in the Twin Cities, but they were not available. Just order them from Amazon and they’ll be delivered within 3-4 days.
Title: Re: Syslite Duo LED light for workshop / garage?
Post by: Bertotti on November 12, 2020, 07:01 PM
Thanks, @Cheese I get to Savage and South St Paul routinely and St Cloud and Rochester etc. If you didn't find them in the big cities then I probably won't find them in the Sioux Falls area either. I'll give ti a shot when I run in there tomorrow but it looks as if Amazon is the way to go!