Author Topic: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?  (Read 4290 times)

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Offline pixelated

  • Posts: 335
Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2022, 07:20 AM »
no

I’m actually on the fence between no and maybe, but it’s not something I’ve felt a great need for.

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Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2022, 11:41 AM »
"I would buy a set for up to $30.00."

I don't think I could print that for $30.

I haven't run the files through the slicer to see the print time
estimates but I know many of those parts will be 2 hours at least.

So that's a full day of printing, more if there's an oops. The filament
cost would be nil, but you can't set it and forget it for 8 hours. You
have to monitor the printer and start each print job.

Steve how long does it take to print the whole set?

Bob,
I am sure you know there are a lot of setting variables that affect print time and I have found support is a significant contributor.  I printed the entire set less the tray in about 19 hours (I let it print overnight).  The tray took almost 6 hours with only 10% infill.  I am already working on Gen 2 and working on reducing print times.  Initially, it looks like my print time with the new design could be printed out in about half that time.  Still a long time though and it is surprising just how long 3D printing takes.

Steve

Offline Vipersmith

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2022, 10:21 AM »
Yes

Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2022, 10:40 AM »
For those who want a set printed now but dont have a 3d printer (like me) I would reach out to THIS GUY I have no affiliation with him other than I ordered a new dust shoe for my CNC router and was very impressed with his service and product.  He didnt already offer a dust shoe for my model but was willing to work with me on getting one made. So he might be willing to print other stuff to.  The price for dust shoe I got seemed very reasonable to me,  Its pretty good size the duct is 6" for scale so it had to take a lot of hours to print it. I attached pic of shoe.  This was my first time even handling a 3d printed part. The tolerance's were much better than I expected too. 

Especially if their was a group buy.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 10:47 AM by afish »

Offline Steve Rowe

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2022, 01:02 PM »
For those who want a set printed now but dont have a 3d printer (like me) I would reach out to THIS GUY I have no affiliation with him other than I ordered a new dust shoe for my CNC router and was very impressed with his service and product.  He didnt already offer a dust shoe for my model but was willing to work with me on getting one made. So he might be willing to print other stuff to.  The price for dust shoe I got seemed very reasonable to me,  Its pretty good size the duct is 6" for scale so it had to take a lot of hours to print it. I attached pic of shoe.  This was my first time even handling a 3d printed part. The tolerance's were much better than I expected too. 

Especially if their was a group buy.

Anyone seeking to do what you suggest had best look at the license for this design which is clearly indicated on the download site.  For this design you cannot print for commercial use.  The fact that I have chosen to share this work does not give anyone license to steal, manufacture, and profit from my work. 

For what it's worth, I purchased a dust boot from oneguyinashop and he does excellent work.

Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2022, 01:46 PM »
sorry, I do not want one for myself and didnt even click the link. When I said (like me) I was only referring to the fact I dont have a 3d printer.  not that I wanted the domino glue nozzle and also dont have a printer. I misunderstood your post, when you said you had no desire to have a 3d print farm.

I dont see it as a huge seller but why not offer a small license fee to print commercially? sort of like how some sell plans.  problem is most people who make and sell 3d printed items could look at that, and design their own lickity split.  Or partner with someone like oneguyinashop where he makes a bunch for you and you sell them. It kind of reminds me of the guy that designed the chestnut MFT but refused to sell any plans. He only wanted to sell complete units but quickly found out that selling woodworking projects to woodworkers was a tough sale. Any woodworker with basic skills could look at it and duplicate it.  Then you have a guy that sold plans for his mobile MFT cart (sorry I forgot the name) but I know he sold a ton of those plans.  I dont have access to eithers financials but I would bet my house that the guy who sold the plans made way more money than the other guy. Good luck, either way

Online mino

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2022, 01:51 PM »
Anyone seeking to do what you suggest had best look at the license for this design which is clearly indicated on the download site.  For this design you cannot print for commercial use.  The fact that I have chosen to share this work does not give anyone license to steal, manufacture, and profit from my work. 

For what it's worth, I purchased a dust boot from oneguyinashop and he does excellent work.
I believe you misunderstand the restrictions you placed.

What that restriction means is:
1) No one can use the files as well as the *printed* items derived for commercial purposes. Thus making it useless in the context of 80% of this forum members /sure, the enforceability is limited in practice but that is the law/.

2) No one can *offer* the printed items for sale (i.e. derive profit from selling them).

3) However, there is no restriction for any one to print the items *FOR* someone else based on any arrangement, including a commercial one. In such a case, the person ordering such a print is responsible for ensuring the license compliance and still cannot use the items for any commercial use etc.

Analogy:
This is the same way as a copy shop cannot be held liable for someone asking them to copy a copyrighted work - they are the "instrument" here and the rights/no-rights is solely on the entity ordering the service.


The restrictions you put on mean the content you published, and anything produced based on it, is suitable only for private/personal use and in some jurisdictions public education use.
There are no restrictions on how the entities - otherwise entitled to it by the license terms - acquire/produce the items. Including contracting to 3rd parties (i.e. parties not a party to the license terms thus).
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 11:46 PM by mino »
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Offline Paul_HKI

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2022, 02:28 PM »
Anyone seeking to do what you suggest had best look at the license for this design which is clearly indicated on the download site.  For this design you cannot print for commercial use.  The fact that I have chosen to share this work does not give anyone license to steal, manufacture, and profit from my work. 

For what it's worth, I purchased a dust boot from oneguyinashop and he does excellent work.


Anyone seeking to share their work should be realistic in their understanding that once you release files, you'd better be prepared to follow through with your war-chest to stop others copying and commercialising your work if it's in demand. 


I didn't download it, as I don't see the point really. 


But maybe the folks who make that very similar nozzle in cast/machined alloy would have something to say on the matter.
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Offline ChuckS

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2022, 02:57 PM »
"But maybe the folks who make that very similar nozzle in cast/machined alloy would have something to say on the matter."

I suppose you mean the "insanely priced" product I linked in my reply #6. I wonder which furniture manufacturer uses that particular kit in its production plant. Such kind of kit makes good sense for a production setting.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 03:32 PM by ChuckS »

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2022, 03:36 PM »
Snip. Or partner with someone like oneguyinashop where he makes a bunch for you and you sell them. Snip.

The impression I got from the title of the post is that the potential partner, if that's the path to go down, might be FastCap.

Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2022, 03:49 PM »
yea, not sure what the post intensions were.  if it was more of a feeler gauge to judge interest level.  But, why make the file available to download if you are trying to partner with someone like fastcap. Or even let the idea out of the bag. If there is a good market for it by the time fastcap brings it to market there will already be plenty of 3d printer guys making them.  Tjere are many experienced 3d guys out there that could whip that up in solidworks in a hour or two from scratch. It doesnt look like its going to sell a million units but I will say that if I was interested in purchasing a set I would much rather pay 30 from a local etsy seller than send another 10 dollars to china. 

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 1119
Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2022, 04:53 PM »
No.

But, the idea of having holes on the side of the tip is good. Nicely executed though.

I’d like a couple of width’s:
One narrow that’ll do regular dowels and
One covering all domino widths.

And I cannot see a tip that’s rigid without breaking very soon.
So the tip needs to be a bit flexible.
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Offline tsmi243

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2022, 05:51 PM »

And I cannot see a tip that’s rigid without breaking very soon.
So the tip needs to be a bit flexible.

This is a good point.  The plastic that Titebond uses on their nozzles is ideal.  Is it feasible to get this thing made of the same stuff?  Not just for durability, but for cleaning dried glue out every so often. 

Offline Duckler

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2022, 07:02 PM »
Yes. Because if Woodpeckers make one it will be stupid expensive.

<<Edit:  Post modified to include the name of the company - P.Halle, Moderator>>
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 07:10 PM by Peter Halle »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2022, 09:18 PM »
Yes. Because if Woodpeckers make one it will be stupid expensive.

<<Edit:  Post modified to include the name of the company - P.Halle, Moderator>>

So which is more important..
Stupid expensive that works well…or
Stupid cheap that doesn’t work at all?

Offline Svar

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #45 on: January 15, 2022, 09:23 PM »
Yes. Because if Woodpeckers make one it will be stupid expensive.
<<Edit:  Post modified to include the name of the company - P.Halle, Moderator>>
So which is more important..
Stupid expensive that works well…or
Stupid cheap that doesn’t work at all?
False dichotomy. Could be moderately priced and work well.
Speaking of WP, for example, their squares are often less square than some much cheaper engineering squares. And don't get me started on their etched scale precision.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 09:25 PM by Svar »

Offline Cheese

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #46 on: January 15, 2022, 09:26 PM »
Svar, if you have issues with their products just return them, they’ll make you whole.

So, we're now looking for moderately priced products the likes of which Mafell sells? I think you're familiar with their products... [smile]
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 09:49 PM by Cheese »

Online mino

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #47 on: January 15, 2022, 11:50 PM »
...
But maybe the folks who make that very similar nozzle in cast/machined alloy would have something to say on the matter.
Actually that would be fine - unless - there is a patent on such which I doubt as prior art and all that ...

The Creative Commons license mentioned is just the copyright - that is a restriction on the specific files/documents shared on the portal and stuff produced using those exact documents. Nothing to do with the idea, patent protection etc. and nothing preventing someone to create an identical design from scratch based on the published pictures /not files/.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 11:53 PM by mino »
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Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2022, 07:32 AM »
Not trying to open a can of legal worms here, but Correct me if Im wrong.  Even if there was a pat. on the metal ones.  Someone could still produce and sell a variation such as these as long as there was a significant change or improvement made. For example you cant just change the color but the fact that the metal ones are made to go on the pneumatic applicator gun and these or others would screw onto a glue bottle it would be very hard to enforce the original pat. There is obviously some gray area issues at where you draw the line. For example could fastcap see this and say yea lets make and sell them but we want to make them as an accessory for our gluebot.  Which If I was fastcap thats how I would want them designed. So we dont want to use your design...We will just make our own.  I cant see them wanting to make them for a generic bottle when they already market and sell there own glue bottle.  Either way not sure if that would be enough of a change to weasel out of pat. infringement's. 

 


Offline reijos

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2022, 09:01 AM »
I believe what is important is what exactly was patented. If the patent was granted for a method of applying glue within mortises using a tenon shaped applicator then the material or method of propulsion would be meaningless and this would be a patent infringement. If instead the patent was for a metal glue applicator tip for pneumatic glue machines then this would be totally fair game.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2022, 10:48 AM »
        "Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?"


I am pretty sure Steve's intent for this topic is to gauge general interest as opposed to a patent debate, or a Woodpecker's product discussion. Probably would be good to avoid clouding the intent of the topic.


Seth

Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2022, 02:05 PM »
NO

A chop stick works well for spreading the glue around in the mortise too.  It also cleans up easy with just a quick swipe on a piece of paper towel or work jeans and its ready for the next time... One pair of chop sticks should last the average domino owner his or hers lifetime. Resulting in less disposable products in the land fill and less plastic in our oceans. Plus they are typically free with the purchase of a meal. The round ones fit well in Domino hole and even match up with the radius of the mortise well also works on dowel holes. 4mm dowel hole "might" be tight for average chop stick but one end could be sanded down to fit in 4mm if not.

"If" the OP intent or thought was he was going to get simple yes or no answer without the input from other members he posted on the wrong forum...  [tongue] at 70k to start up make the molds patent cost etc. and a selling price of $30 bucks a pop which seems like the upper limit of what someone is willing to pay that's 2.3k units IF the $30 is all profit which we know it isnt. You still have material cost, labor, shipping cost from china/ import/duty fees etc.  So, that probably puts the brake even point closer to 5k units.  He said 20 hours to print the set. I'm assuming that included the base?  That time could probably be cut considerably just printing the nozzle's and letting the buyer make a wood base/holder if he/she wanted. I dont own or make decisions for fastcap but its risky and dont see it happening.  Partnering with a 3d guy to produce a 100 units and selling those as a market test seems more logical then posting a non patent protected product idea on an open forum.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2022, 02:39 PM »
NO

A chop stick works well for spreading the glue around in the mortise too.  Snip.
I have never tried chopsticks, but have found coffee stir sticks and skewers handy. The McDonald"s are longer and slightly wider than A&W's. I use each a couple of times before composting it. They're free since my wife drinks a lot.

Also to prevent/delay expansion, glue is always applied to the mortises first and the dominoes last (for edge jointing, edges first, then mortises and last dominoes).
« Last Edit: January 16, 2022, 02:45 PM by ChuckS »

Offline Vtshopdog

  • Posts: 105
Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2022, 03:01 PM »
+ 1 for chopsticks

My go is this Bench Dog spreader tool, paddle end is great for anything but 4mm, for those I like wood/bamboo shish kebab skewers


Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2022, 03:40 PM »
Im a fan of the silicone brushes too. I have even used them with epoxy.  I dont use them much for dominos but other stuff yes. love the easy clean feature of silicone. I also use silicone cake decorating spatulas as stir sticks for epoxy, paint etc. cleans up easy and less landfill/ocean trash. 

Offline Ed Balaschak

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2022, 05:43 PM »
Yes

Offline fritter63

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2022, 08:28 PM »
Meh, I don't know. I don't butter the domino for worrying that it just gets scraped off during insertion (ahem).

I just drizzle a bit into the mortise, then use a Rockler "glue stick" to spread it around. I think any specialized nozzle would still require you to do the same.

I'd be more interested in something that would properly METER the amount of glue for above.

Offline ChuckS

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2022, 08:52 PM »
Meh, I don't know. I don't butter the domino for worrying that it just gets scraped off during insertion (ahem).

Snip.

That's a valid concern.

I spread only a little on the entry portion of the tenon, the same way we learned how to apply glue to a traditional M&T joint to avoid messy squeeze-out. A little goes a long way in this case. On the rare occasions where I do want to see squeeze-out (in a pre-masking taped set-up), I coat the whole tenon surface.

Offline afish

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Re: Should FastCap develop a Domino glue nozzle product?
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2022, 07:54 AM »
Meh, I don't know. I don't butter the domino for worrying that it just gets scraped off during insertion (ahem).

I just drizzle a bit into the mortise, then use a Rockler "glue stick" to spread it around. I think any specialized nozzle would still require you to do the same.

I'd be more interested in something that would properly METER the amount of glue for above.

A glue bottle with the ability to "adjust" and "meter" the glue output is a much more appealing option. It would need the ability to adjust also since different sized holes would need different amounts of glue.  My glue bottle of choice is the one that comes with the ddf40 it has a small tip so it doesn't over dispense as easy.  You do develop a feel on how hard and quickly to squeeze it but its not 100%. I will say that the domino glue tips do look like they help meter the glue output. they look like they fit in the mortise snugly so that seems like it would keep one from over applying.  Possibly having a small recess all the way around the tip in line with the holes would help apply the glue in a more uniform and 360° fashion.

The need to have to clean up another item after every use is a big pitfall of the domino glue tips for me.   Hats off on making the cleaning adaptor but I dont have a slop sink in the garage so I would need to get out the garden hose to flush it. The need to do it each time is a no go for me.  Some silicone condoms to cover them might be a nice touch to reduce/eliminate cleanings.

 I would also sell them separately maybe 10 bucks each or 30 full full set. Some testing would be needed to see if a silicone cap would allow someone to leave it on all the time.  That way you could have a few glue bottles ready to go for your most used domino sizes and when done just cap it for next time. No, cleaning needed for shorter intervals.  Im not sure how well wood glue sticks to PLA. If I didnt need to clean them every time It would be a lot more appealing.

Another thing is shipping.  If you or fastcap could get them on Amazon they will sell much better.  I buy almost everything I can on Amazon the speed and convenience is huge for me not sure what I average but 1k is probably a slow month with no big purchase.  Having to pay 7-8 bucks to ship a 10 dollar item would keep many from ordering unless they already had an order being placed with fastcap.  I would never go to fastcap and just place an order for them. But if they were on Amazon for 10 bucks each I would probably add one to an order just to test out. For example I just ordered a few different sizes of fastcaps powerhead screws from amazon.  Had they not been on Amazon I most likely never would have never ordered them.  It looks like fastcap is catching on too as a lot of their stuff is on Amazon now.