Author Topic: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?  (Read 6625 times)

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Offline JonathanJung

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Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« on: March 19, 2021, 01:15 PM »
Can Festool or anyone confirm which locations Festool clamps are manufactured?

Got in a couple ratchet clamps from one of my usual suppliers, and am disappointed they are now being made in Vietnam, not Germany. I'm thinking, why pay $42 for a clamp made overseas...can anyone confirm this is legit and if so, that the quality is the same?

Photo of my original clamps has the Germany stamp.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Coen

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2021, 01:36 PM »
Quality does not depend on country, but used materials and machinery.

I don't think Festool ever made those themselves honestly. I think they always bought them from Bessey.

Did you ask Festool directly?

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2021, 01:43 PM »
A lot of the lower end Bessey stuff is made in China and I’ve read that Western manufactures are moving some of their production capacity out of China, to Vietnam in particular.

That clamp is not lower end but since you have both what do you think of the quality? Like Coen said, location isn’t the determinant.

Offline RustE

  • Posts: 601
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2021, 02:09 PM »
Environment regulations are forcing a lot of foundries to close. Festool already had a manufacturing source in Vietnam for soft goods. At this point, be happy they’re still transparent about country of origin.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1417
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2021, 02:58 PM »
Vietnam clamp has better surface finish on it. Could be they made a new batch of tooling with a move.

Like others said, it's the design, manufacturing, materials that make the quality difference, not where it's made. It's fine though if the issue to be taken has more to do with the labor/wages side of things, or the environmental impact. As mentioned, the biggest reason for going to these countries is to dodge environmental regs. This is not a comment against the regs, it's an issue with companies dodging them this way.


Offline Coen

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2021, 03:02 PM »
Not always. Sometimes it's also the local supply chain or just the lower labor costs. When you have to refurbish an old factory for new... building a new one on the other side of the globe might be just as expensive but result in lower running costs.

Offline Blues

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2021, 03:43 PM »
.. these clamps may out live our lifetime. It's got the festool name, has the green color.. so must me worth the money.. 8)


Offline mackenzie

  • Posts: 216
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2021, 10:47 AM »
I have three Festool ratchet clamps purchased 2/3 years ago and they are made in Germany.  I bought the same clamps in November 2020 and can confirm they were made in Vietnam.  I see no difference in functionality.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 313
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2021, 01:54 PM »
I find it to be a let down but not because of quality. I'm just not super interested in the amorphous blob approach to existence.
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Offline Alex

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2021, 02:38 PM »
I'm just not super interested in the amorphous blob approach to existence.

Interesting, manufacturing in Vietnam can be seen as an amorphous blob approach to existence. I'll have to ponder over this for a while.  [scratch chin]

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 49
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2021, 03:38 PM »
Better than China.  I have a few Metabo tools with Vietnamese made/assembled chargers and batteries.  Never any issues and better than made in China in my books.  I'll never buy a 4Ah Festool battery as long as they make them in China. 
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Offline JeremyH.

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2021, 04:51 PM »
Better than China.  I have a few Metabo tools with Vietnamese made/assembled chargers and batteries.  Never any issues and better than made in China in my books.  I'll never buy a 4Ah Festool battery as long as they make them in China.

I agree that a lot of other asian countries make things better than in China. But who wants to say "I like Festool they are a German/Vietnamese/Taiwanese/Chinese company at a premium German/Vietnamese/Taiwanese/Chinese price, I really like supporting German/Vietnamese/Taiwanese/Chinese manufacturing." It's just one more step towards the blob.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2021, 05:15 PM »
In term of clamps. I have two lots of Made in China clamps: Harbor Freight F-clamps and 14" deep throat clamps. They outperform many other clamps Made in China/Taiwan/Asia, USA and Mexico in my possession of the same style in terms of value (clamping and price considered).

The 14" DT clamps ($100 Cdn for 6) are from an old welder who recently retired. I have had only brief experience with similar Bessey DT clamps ($170 Cdn or so each). The welder told me that Piher DT clamps (sold in mm) are the best, but not something he could afford for his business. He didn't think the Bessey DT clamps could beat his Chinese clamps.

But no imported aluminum bar clamps can match the USA Dubuque clamps in terms of quality.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 05:44 PM by ChuckM »

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 313
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2021, 05:17 PM »
Sure those Chinese clamps might be great, but they don't say Festool on them... so it's not really part of the topic.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2021, 05:19 PM »
Metabo clamps are stamped Festool?

Offline Paul_HKI

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2021, 05:34 PM »
Metabo clamps are stamped Festool?

No, the point I'm making is that I've had other German branded tool products come from Vietnamese factories and they'll been absolutely up to scratch.  The fact that a premium branded product comes from Vietnam should not dissuade a buyer from seeing quality and appropriate value for money in the item they purchase.  Unless it's coming from China.  If it comes from China, I'll buy something else if I can find an alternative.  Clamps or batteries, it doesn't matter to me.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2021, 05:37 PM »
My comment was in response to "...so it's not really part of the topic."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 05:42 PM by ChuckM »

Offline Paul_HKI

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2021, 05:43 PM »
Ah, got it.   [embarassed]
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Offline JeremyH.

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2021, 09:04 PM »
Metabo clamps are stamped Festool?

Not a favorite thing, the out sourcing for a premium.
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Offline mcooley

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2021, 10:30 PM »
It all sucks and once again means no one knows the true cost of any of this stuff either from a labor point of view or environmental impact. It'd be nice if we knew for certain our tools weren't undermining people and environment whether in one country or another. Like Trader Joes it all just says Monrovia CA! Ugh.

Offline mino

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2021, 06:32 AM »
Made in China. Made in Germany. Made in XYZ does not tell you anything of the quality of the product.

Only, "made by company ABC at a plant CDE using a technique of FGH" can. Within means.


That said, moving production to a cheaper location AND keeping prices the same is not all that OK with me. But we will have to take this one with Bessey I am afraid.

Festool sells them around the Bessey price. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. So fine there with me. But even if they were a lot more expensive, that would be fine - as Bessey is the maker here, not Festool.

About a year ago, in Europe Bessey tried to sell these cheaper at about €15/$20+VAT or so. Unfortunately I bought mine just before I became aware these are Bessey clamps ... so not savings for me.

Then they increased prices to €25+VAT again. I guess Bessey was "testing waters" if reduced prices can increase their volume. It probably did not, so they just went back to their original value-based pricing. Not happy about that one iota.


Besides that, today Made in China (Taiwan) or Made in P.R.C or made in R.O.C (Taiwan) or made in China (mainland) does not mean anything. There are companies in both places which make cutting edge stuff as well as those which make junk. Usually, if you do not have a crappy rep, you get what you pay for. Same as everywhere.
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Offline JonathanJung

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2021, 10:53 AM »
 [popcorn]

After hearing some of your replies confirming the move of Festool away from their own country, and seeing that the comparable Bessey unit is only slightly cheaper, I decided to just use the ones I got in. It won't be quite as enjoyable grabbing the non-German ones, but they do work the same. The quality was only part of my concern. Mostly I wanted to make sure I wasn't getting fraudulent product.

Thing is, I'm not happy any time a company goes overseas, at the potential neglect of their immediate community and their own country. I believe each manufacturer big and small needs to realise that every step they make away from manufacturing in their own country is a step away from keeping locals employed and local business supported.

So, glad for all the input, related or not to my question!

Offline Michael Kellough

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2021, 11:19 AM »
@ChuckM   “The 14" DT clamps ($100 Cdn for 6) are from an old welder who recently retired... He didn't think the Bessey DT clamps could beat his Chinese clamps.”

Are you referring to some Chinese clamps that can be bought or some clamps the welder made?
If Chinese clamps do you know where to buy them?

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2021, 12:03 PM »
Michael,

They're made in China. Each weighs about 9.2 lbs, much heavier than similar ones from Bessey's (made in Germany) that I once used. So the extra weight may be a plus (thicker iron) or a negative (heavier to handle) depending on how one looks at it.

Google didn't find any Chinese sources for such F-style deep throat clamps.

Before this score, 5" is the deepest reach of clamps (made in Taiwan) that I've owned: https://www.leevalley.com/en-ca/shop/tools/hand-tools/clamps/bar/31197-heavy-duty-deep-throat-fast-acting-clamps?item=03F0512
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 12:28 PM by ChuckM »

Offline ChuckM

  • Posts: 2638
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2021, 01:28 PM »

Snip.
That said, moving production to a cheaper location AND keeping prices the same is not all that OK with me. But we will have to take this one with Bessey I am afraid.


As a consumer, I understand and concur with your sentiment. One Mercedes Benz model here is sold at a Honda's price...because it's made in Mexico. People aren't dumb to pay top dollars for just a German brand, but not made in Germany.

However, another way to look at it from the manufacturer's standpoint is competition. If it didn't move the production, it might not be able to keep the price, and would have to raise it.  So in that sense, it could argue that the price has been "lowered" by outsourcing.

I haven't looked into the Bridge City Tools/ Harvey pricing. I suppose a discount factor has been built into the pricing for goods now produced by Harvey. Here in Canada, you can get Made in Canada Roots, or Made in Asia ( China, Vietnam, Nepal, etc.) Roots products. They're fairly priced differently.



« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 02:17 PM by ChuckM »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2021, 03:26 PM »
Problem is companies don't give folks a choice to actually see how it would work out. If companies came out and had "the same" product and listed one as the "made in motherland" version, and or along with that "full featured", and then had the discount version and made clear it's made in other places, then people would be able to decide what they want.  Obviously this is hard, but some companies do this to various degrees.

New Balance has steadily ramped up making shoes in the US, they cost a bunch more, but folks buy them, they are willing to pay.
Companies like John Deere will sell you a real john deere at a John Deere dealer, and you will pay a ton. Or you can buy a "john deere" at home depot, it's cheap junk.

People generally are fine with paying more when they get what they want and they see where the money goes.  But the way most companies do it, they just botch the whole deal. When companies start doing cost cutting because they think folks want "cheap cheap cheap" it's when things go down hill.  When companies sell thru big box stores and such, this becomes a major issue. The retailers are the ones who force the drive downwards more than anyone else. Not the manufactures, not the buyers.

Offline RussellS

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2021, 04:07 PM »
Thing is, I'm not happy any time a company goes overseas, at the potential neglect of their immediate community and their own country. I believe each manufacturer big and small needs to realise that every step they make away from manufacturing in their own country is a step away from keeping locals employed and local business supported.

This thread/topic has gotten away from Festool.  What you write sounds good and makes sense, somewhat.  But consider this example.  Amazon today employs tens and tens of thousands of people in the USA.  Many tens of thousands of USA employees.  And Amazon sells lots of Chinese and Vietnamese and Thailand and Taiwan and Philippine stuff.  If they only sold USA made stuff, their sales would be miniscule.  And they would only employ a few hundred people at most.  Or less.  Maybe ten people in total.  So you would have tens and tens and tens of thousands of unemployed Amazon people without jobs if Amazon did not sell Chinese stuff.  Would unemployed Amazon employees support local businesses?

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 49
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2021, 05:23 PM »
Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2021, 05:27 PM by Paul_HKI »
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Offline JeremyH.

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2021, 05:38 PM »
Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.

I'm with you. But it seems harder to do one's best to contribute to that when it's all willy-nilly not-sure where things are from.
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2021, 09:18 PM »
Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.

Problem is you are heading down a false path. A myth of the free market and people choosing.  Folks don't have a choice. When companies all decided to make a shift, you end up with either you don't buy anything, or you buy something you don't like the option. Any product market, the companies in it generally move as one, if one company does something, the others react. Same with the retailers.

Rarely does a company make a bad move, and folks have a perfectly good option to shift to, with no draw backs.  Plus people don't generally know the shifts happened.

Consumer choice driving things just isn't real. As consumers rarely have much choice in things.

Offline Cheese

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2021, 09:40 PM »
If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place. 

 So if Amazon employs just 10 people, will that have an impact on the 24 hour shipping I need when I order parts from Micro Fence that designs equipment in California, sources US materials for machining and machines those items in California?  Just curious..

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Alex

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2021, 02:27 AM »
And Amazon sells lots of Chinese and Vietnamese and Thailand and Taiwan and Philippine stuff.  If they only sold USA made stuff, their sales would be miniscule.  And they would only employ a few hundred people at most.  Or less.  Maybe ten people in total. 

Amazon was already a billion dollar business when they only sold books, were it started. I think those books weren't made in Asia.

So you would have tens and tens and tens of thousands of unemployed Amazon people without jobs if Amazon did not sell Chinese stuff.  Would unemployed Amazon employees support local businesses?

Chinese stuff is only as cheap as it is because they have legalised what we call slave labour. If our markets weren't flooded with products made by slave labour, we would have to produce those products locally, and that would yield a lot more jobs for local people, who could then in turn support local businesses.

By the way, Amazon employees sometimes make so little they qualify for food stamps. With their income, you think they're supporting a lot of other businesses anyway?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2021, 08:19 AM »
Chinese stuff is only as cheap as it is because they have legalised what we call slave labour.
Eh, they did not "legalize" it in any way it was "legal" in Europe in the late 19th century. They simply did not have adequate labor protection laws.

That said, this is not why China is way cheaper these days. Not anymore. Their workers often make more than same position in US or Central/East Europe.

Their current advantage is twofold. An economy of (huge) scale. Second is a regulation environment which is not dogmatic (and is a bit corrupt, but "non-dogmatic" is key here). These combined allow for not only lower production costs, but way, way higher agility which again results in market advantage.

The same way Detroit steamrolled over competition in the 50s by efficiencies of sheer scale, China is now steamrolling the ROW in almost every field which they have mastered.

If it is 1/2 the cost to build the (SAME class) new plant in China versus modernizing an existing plant in Europe/US it is slam dunk. The fact all your suppliers are within 100 miles if mild climate flatlands of the new plant is then a cherry on the cake only. Even if you paid the workers the SAME (PPP) and used the SAME, you would STILL have lower costs. And many companies operate this way as coastal china is not cheap labor place anymore. The times are long gone when the salaries were 1/4 PPP and 1/20 nominally.

The only reason you do not want to move production there is risk mitigation and brand value. Legal, distance (lack of agility), geopolitical risk etc. are mainly on the other side of the equation.

The best strategy is to have plants and R&D sites everywhere - make something in China, something in India, something in Europe, something in US, etc. That way you can leverage the comparative advantages of each and at same get positive image across the Global markets - as you can call your self "local" in multiple markets in one way or other.

Ref these Bessey clamps, IMO their high prices could be justified by the production in Germany as these were made on a cost+ model there. That is no longer the case and I see no reason to pay $40 for something which no longer costs $20 to make but closer to $10 or so.

I would not be surprised if Festool decided to subcontract these to a different company or pushed for a better price with Bessey as the clones swamp the market and make the Festool version uncompetitive.

EDIT: typo fix 1000 miles -> 100 miles (Shenzhen area etc.)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2021, 08:40 AM by mino »
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
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Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 313
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2021, 08:34 AM »
Having stuff made in China is tricky because you have to have contracts just right or it'll never work out how you want. And even then having anything made 100% in one place is risky. Generally speaking you want multiple parts made in entirely different facilities. The reason is they will sell the same thing you're having made somewhere else. Makes you wonder how the scales of efficiency would be if it weren't for all counterfeit stuff being produced by the same people making the licensed stuff. (and often just by someone else entirely different)
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2021, 08:38 AM »
Having stuff made in China is tricky because you have to have contracts just right or it'll never work out how you want. And even then having anything made 100% in one place is risky. Generally speaking you want multiple parts made in entirely different facilities. The reason is they will sell the same thing you're having made somewhere else.
Yep.
What you really want is your own plant. The moment you subcontract anything what is not a commodity you are actually paying up your competition to tool up and wipe you off the market once the contract expires or even sooner ..
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Offline Alex

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2021, 08:48 AM »
Eh, they did not "legalize" it in any way it was "legal" in Europe in the late 19th century. They simply did not have adequate labor protection laws.

Nice joke. They don't have any protection laws.

That said, this is not why China is way cheaper these days. Not anymore. Their workers often make more than same position in US or Central/East Europe.

Also nice joke.

And you know what? China is completely free of corona.

Online rst

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2021, 08:54 AM »
A local company, Great Coasters, designs and build traditional wooden rollers all over the world including a dozen or so in China.  every time he sends over equipment , if they send so new machinery unless it is something he sent before, the shipment is impounded for a couple weeks.  He knows that the impoundment is so the Chinese can copy the design and that it is one of the costs of doing business. 

Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2021, 09:59 AM »
A local company, Great Coasters, designs and build traditional wooden rollers all over the world including a dozen or so in China.  every time he sends over equipment , if they send so new machinery unless it is something he sent before, the shipment is impounded for a couple weeks.  He knows that the impoundment is so the Chinese can copy the design and that it is one of the costs of doing business.
That impounding has nothing with copying. Yes they do copy, but not in such a way.

It is actually the same if someone tries to import something into EU (US) which is nor registered/qualified by the authorities. They first need to classify it, value it, consider it acceptable to be imported and only then will allow it to be released. If it is something they already have a record of - the addressee can refer to the previous sample which was already categorized and the process is faster.
Now, the time the tools spend in duties/import check IS used for state-level espionage. But the delays have nothing to do with it. You do not need a week to x-ray a machine these days ...
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Online rst

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2021, 10:09 AM »
Great Coasters know they copy as they have seen copies of their machinery at sites other than their own.

Offline RussellS

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2021, 09:50 PM »
Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need, no matter where it's made, more people could have the spending power required to support local businesses manufacturing locally and paying more than minimum wages for pick and pack warehouse operatives.  Amazon sucks the life out of local businesses, local economies and does more harm than good to the earning abilities of their average employees.  If people stopped buying Chinese junk and Amazon employed just 10 people, the world would be a better place.  More local employment, more ability for everyone to develop their skills and pursue meaningful work, rather than the nonsense that is spending your working life in a chain of warehouses handling something you have contributed NOTHING towards. 

At the end of the day, Amazon doesn't care about the average American worker, consumer or business.  As soon as they can automate the thing that's done by hand, they will.  They're not a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst.

In your first sentence you write "Maybe if people stopped buying substandard junk they don't need".  Lets replace "substandard junk" with "Festool".  So your first sentence now reads "Maybe if people stopped buying Festool they don't need".  How many people on this forum NEED Festool products?  Need Festool to make a living?  Not you like using Frestool because its good or you enjoy making woodworking items for fun and Festool improves that.  NEED Festool to stay alive, earn money to live, feed themselves, provide a house, medical care.

You are advocating we, everyone, stop buying Festool and put them out of business because no one, other than professional carpenters, need Festool.  OK, sounds good.  Only professionals who use Festool to earn a living are allowed to buy Festool and you, me, and most who do not earn our living using Festool cannot, should not waste out money on Festool.  We would use our saved money to spend locally on local made goods we NEED.  I don't know if Festool sells enough to professional woodworkers to stay in business or not.  Or if they make the majority of their money from selling to people who do not really need their products.

Later on you write about people using their money to support businesses manufacturing locally.  Sounds good.  Festool is in Germany, not midwest USA, so kick out Festool.  Locally only.  I like cinnamon and chocolate.  For desserts.  But their is none grown locally, cocoa for chocolate.  So can't buy any of that food.  I bought a laptop through Amazon about 10 years ago.  Super price is why I bought it, and great specs at the time.  There are no computer makers anywhere locally, so no computer for me I guess.  Maybe this buying and supporting business locally doesn't really work so well.  At least not the way some folks make it out to be.
 Heck, even the electricity I use in my house is made by burning coal shipped in from Wyoming on railcars.

In your last paragraph you write Amazon does not care about "the average American worker, consumer or business."  I disagree.  Amazon thrives the more people use their services.  So they want the whole economy and everyone to have lots of money to spend on stuff Amazon sells.  Amazon wants everyone to be too prosperous so they have to worry how they are going to spend money.  And you mention Amazon is "a great example of anything except rampant consumerism at its worst."  I think the American population is the rampant consumer.  Amazon just helps fulfill that disposition of the American population.  Its the people who are the problem, not Amazon.

People like, love spending money and accumulating stuff.  Amazon helps fulfill that need, desire.  China helps fulfill it too by making cheap stuff.  Everyone likes to spend less than more.  Would people be better off buying fewer high quality items at a higher price.  Yes.  But I'm not too optimistic about changing people for the better.

Offline RussellS

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2021, 10:47 PM »
And Amazon sells lots of Chinese and Vietnamese and Thailand and Taiwan and Philippine stuff.  If they only sold USA made stuff, their sales would be miniscule.  And they would only employ a few hundred people at most.  Or less.  Maybe ten people in total. 

Amazon was already a billion dollar business when they only sold books, were it started. I think those books weren't made in Asia.

I sure hopes this works.  First time ever trying to quote prior posts inside a post and writing in between!!!!
Amazon started mid 1994.  Amazon goes public stock mid 1997.  $160 million sales in 1997.  $1.6 billion in 1999.  Late 2002 they start selling other stuff on their website besides books.  Yes the books were not printed in Asia.  I checked some of my books on the shelves and they all say printed in the USA.  You are The Netherlands.  Were your books printed in The Netherlands?  Or were they printed in a foreign country and imported?

So you would have tens and tens and tens of thousands of unemployed Amazon people without jobs if Amazon did not sell Chinese stuff.  Would unemployed Amazon employees support local businesses?

Chinese stuff is only as cheap as it is because they have legalised what we call slave labour. If our markets weren't flooded with products made by slave labour, we would have to produce those products locally, and that would yield a lot more jobs for local people, who could then in turn support local businesses.

Producing products locally?  Festool is made in Germany, not Netherlands.  Assume not made by slaves so its OK to buy Festool in Netherlands.  Telephones and computers and televisions are more or less only made in China or SE Asia.  Legalized slave labor down there.  Do you have any companies in Netherlands or western Europe who could make all the phones, computers, TVs that Europe wants to buy?  And would they have any spare capacity to make them for the USA?  And at what price could they make them?  Cell phones here are a few hundred if you buy them unrestricted so you can use them with any network.  TVs close to $1000 for the huge LCD screen ones now.  Laptops under $1000.  I only have one of each.  But couples will have two phones and two computers.  Add kids in and you get a phone for every kid and maybe a couple extra computers and TVs too.  Do you want to spend $3000 for a phone?  $2000 for a TV?  $8000 for a computer?  Times four if wife and two kids included.  Would you have any money leftover to buy food for a family of four?


By the way, Amazon employees sometimes make so little they qualify for food stamps. With their income, you think they're supporting a lot of other businesses anyway?

The internet stories I saw were about WalMart employees being on food stamps.  But Amazon employees could be too.  Food stamps are spent at the local grocery store or WalMart which sells groceries.  So local support I guess.  Yes I am for people earning more money to buy things they want and/or need.  I support raising the minimum wage.  But there is a conflict.  I like getting stuff cheap too.  If labor costs go up for everyone making stuff, then likely prices go up too.  So I get less for my money.  I want everyone to have more money.  But its kind of a danged if you do, danged if you don't paradox.  Me AND You benefit greatly from having legalized slaves in SE Asia make us stuff like phones, laptops, TVs, etc.

Offline JeremyH.

  • Posts: 313
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2021, 11:16 PM »
Amazon has made it clear they want to wipe out all the competition. Then it doesn't matter how much money you have, if all money is spent with them.
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Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2021, 12:47 AM »
Amazon made no profit for most it's existence. Everything was put right back into growing. They knew they had to get so big no one would be able to compete or re-create what they have.

Far as prices.  Clearly when people talk about local, their comments are more along the lines of wanting stuff made in countries of similar laws, regulations, labor practices, wages, etc.  Thus made in the US, Canada, EU, Japan, New Zealand is all fine.  To those concerned about prices, yes, they will go up some. But remember if all this stuff is getting made in these countries, that is all jobs in those countries, and higher wages.  The more people with jobs, and the more people with higher wages, the less we all pay in taxes.

Does anyone wish they could find a way to pay more for Festool or say Mafell products?  No. But when you are paying the kind of money, you know where it's going and how the price got there (for the most part). But when a company abuses that and start trying to get the same price for something that wasn't made from the same path that people are willing to pay for, there is a problem. No different than when they make other bad moves (systainer 3, removal of metric, replacing switches with membrane pads, etc). These are things that make people rethink spending money with a company.  Sending it off to another country is the same issue.

Again, there is no reason to think a clamp made in Vietnam will be bad quality, it could even be better for various reasons (new plant, new tools). That isn't the argument to have with these companies. It's to get them to understand people are paying to support companies making stuff in the countries above, to pay good wages, to follow environmental regs in those countries.

No one faults the workers in the Vietnam plant either, they are just doing a job and supporting families too, it's aspects out of their control that are the problem.


Offline Spandex

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2021, 02:17 AM »
I'm with you. But it seems harder to do one's best to contribute to that when it's all willy-nilly not-sure where things are from.
But this is about a company moving production from one country to another, neither of which are the country you live in. At that point, I can’t really see how buying a clamp manufactured in Vietnam is any different to buying a clamp manufactured in Germany, if the product is identical.

Offline JeremyH.

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2021, 07:46 AM »
I would prefer "made for Festool by xxxx"

Just like I don't go to KC Tools to buy stuff made in Taiwan.
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Offline Coen

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2021, 09:28 AM »
As if local businesses pay their workers a lot better...

Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2021, 09:39 AM »
According to Wiki...

« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 09:43 AM by ChuckM »

Offline mino

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2021, 09:46 AM »
Nice joke. They don't have any protection laws.
...
Also nice joke.
...
They do. This is not 1980 anymore, and even then they had some just laws which were just ignored locally ..

True, some "protections" are "unofficial" but this is not unlike in Germany when many protection rules are union-based agreements. My point being the times of <$1/hour 12/6 work being the norm are mostly gone *).

The company I work does not "outsource" to China anymore. It is about 5 years we stopped as the wages were just too high so it does not make sense cost-wise. Chinese projects are handled by local teams and THEY sometimes outsource the work to IN, Malaysia etc. as it is cost-effective for them by now.

Average wages for less qualified workers in CN are about double on average compared to IN and specialists can take as much or even more than in "The West" these days.

On average, the wages are about on part with CZ, a bit higher here a bit lower there. What is lower still is overall labor costs as there is less social insurance and less taxes compared to Europe. But it is no longer 2x or 3x lower but 10% here 20% there.

There are now many positions you can get a better offer (if you speak Chinese) in China than you can in Europe. Speaking of engineering and qualified jobs. And I do not mean the "overpaid foreign expert" type offers.

Unqualified workers are still paid about 1/4 (PPP) but that is also changing fast.

*)There are much bigger differences within China compared to the Europe versus China. I would say that wages at PPP are about 1/2 Europe across the spectrum but catching up fast. In 2 decades they will be about on par with EU by my estimate.
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Offline demographic

  • Posts: 685
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2021, 11:32 AM »
Err, isn't Germany Overseas as well? Where do you live and could you walk to Germany from there without swimming?

Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #49 on: March 24, 2021, 12:14 PM »
Err, isn't Germany Overseas as well? Where do you live and could you walk to Germany from there without swimming?
Well, "off-shore" is really a UK-specific term ... as everything non-UK is "off-shore/overseas" in the UK context. It just caught on globally I guess and is used even for intra-continent services/production.

I have about 100 miles to the German border. The second biggest Festool plant is actually in Czech Republic in Ceska Lipa, close to the German border.

In Europe there is a common word these days "near-shoring" e.g. for German companies setting up plants in Czech republic or Czech companies in Poland or even Austria etc. Does not even have to be a generally "cheaper" country. Basically, setting up plants in different jurisdictions but "close" culturally and geographically. Has nothing to do with any seas or shores but who am I to argue about proper use of English. Eh.

 [big grin]
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
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Offline Coen

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #50 on: March 24, 2021, 03:04 PM »
I don't know about the comment about swimming... bridges exist for some time outside the UK now you know  [tongue]

Although I'm not patient enough to do it walking. I usually use the bi/tri cycle.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2021, 03:09 PM by Coen »

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2021, 03:35 PM »
Off Shore isn't just a UK thing, it's standard term in the US too.  For the most part, offshore = Southeast Asian countries.  Of course those are the only places manufacturing of stuff shifts too.  No one shuts down a plant in Ohio and moves it to Germany.

In the end, Mino's comments align with what you would hear from folks in manufacturing here.  Yes labor is cheaper there, but any proper manufacturing, labor is a small part of the cost.  The main reasons to go to places like China is to avoid regulations on plants that make them expensive to run here, mainly environmental stuff.  Putting in a Paint Booth, or even worse, some sort of coating/dipping line in the US is something you avoid if you can.  Foundries are another item that "makes sense" to do elsewhere. But as was mentioned, places like China are maturing fast and cracking down on the same stuff, they are now looking for places to dump off stuff that they don't want done there.

Offline Northwoodsman

  • Posts: 4
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2021, 09:59 PM »
I bought two of the ratchet clamps back in August and they wouldn't hold at all.  As soon as I turned the sander or router on they fell to the floor.  I took them in to Woodcraft where I purchased them and they verified that they would not hold; the surface was too polished/slippery.  They gave me two more replacements.  After a couple of uses, the same thing happened to one of them.  I took them back and got two of the cheaper Festool screw clamps.  They wouldn't hold either.  I called Festool and they tried to tell me that it was user error.  5 different employees at Woodcraft who had used them for years verified it was the clamps!  I purchased two sets of the same clamps with the Bessy colors and logo and they work perfect every time.
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Offline ChuckM

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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2021, 01:40 AM »
5 different employees at Woodcraft who had used them for years verified it was the clamps! 

I can't but wonder what happened to the clamps that you returned. Did the staff just put them back on the shelf for the next customer?

And what happened to all others in the inventory? Did they make an effort to check every one of them?

Offline Mini Me

  • Posts: 28
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2021, 06:52 AM »
I have the screw type and while they hold some of the time they do let go on some jobs and if holding is critical I won't use them. If I had bought them from Festool they would have been returned but they came from a friend though he had never used them.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5198
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2021, 09:49 AM »
There is a sweet spot in how rough the bar should be in sliding clamps. Festool clamps tend to be a little too smooth so they are easier to set but they also tend to slip.

I have a bunch of Axminster guide rail clamps which have a lot more texture and never slip but are harder to set because the sliding head so readily grabs the bar.

Offline John Huh

  • Posts: 34
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Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #56 on: April 22, 2021, 03:50 PM »
Can Festool or anyone confirm which locations Festool clamps are manufactured?

Got in a couple ratchet clamps from one of my usual suppliers, and am disappointed they are now being made in Vietnam, not Germany. I'm thinking, why pay $42 for a clamp made overseas...can anyone confirm this is legit and if so, that the quality is the same?

Photo of my original clamps has the Germany stamp.

I got two variations. Don't know where the second is manufactured, but they are very different. Original one from Germany feels better and has 6 notches vs 5 notches on the new one. Also, new one is not 90 degrees on the top and longer as well.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 04:07 PM by John Huh »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2021, 04:28 AM »
I got two variations. Don't know where the second is manufactured, but they are very different. Original one from Germany feels better and has 6 notches vs 5 notches on the new one. Also, new one is not 90 degrees on the top and longer as well.
That "new one" seems like an improvement on the design on the angle. When clamping the top bends, it is better to not have the 90 degrees but less. Mine from 2019 are not "Germany" but still have the 90 degree angle and I wish it was less .. like on yours.
As for less notches - hard to say.

These are definitely conscious design changes, independent of where/who makes them.
The Machine does not have a brain. Use Yours!
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
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Offline woodbutcherbower

  • Posts: 18
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2021, 01:07 PM »
I guess we all perceive things differently based on our own individual experience.

My individual experience is that of a professional joiner who has spent 40 years on the tools, and whose heavy-duty site work requires equipment built to top-drawer standards of durability. As a consequence, I've used a selection of Hilti machines since pretty much forever. Some of these tools are 15 years old, they look like junk, and they've been absolutely tortured - but they all still work as well as the day I bought them. The gearbox in my core drill looks like it came out of a miniature Kenworth or Scania truck.

So I recently upgraded a European-built SF6H 22-volt combi for their new Gen 2 brushless version. Although the 5-year-old Gen 1 was still working fine, the combi is probably the single most-used tool on the van, and because of this - I figured that having two combis would represent a safety net. So I pulled the trigger 'just in case'. For the first time, I was staggered to see 'Made in China' stamped on the casing. I shrugged it off, figuring that surely Hilti knew what they were doing, that they wouldn't do anything to damage their stellar reputation - and I put it to work.

7 months in - it's on its 3rd replacement chuck, its 2nd motor, its 2nd gearbox, its 3rd trigger switch and its 2nd control board. The housing and carry case are all that's left of the original tool. And remember - this is a premium, EXPENSIVE product which cost even more than the original Gen 1, European-built version. Although I can't fault Hilti's outstanding customer service, warranty or repair service in any way - that isn't the point. The point is that the quality has bombed. Coincidence? Bad luck? a Friday afternoon product? I really have no idea if the above is in any way connected to the country of manufacture - but it's sure left a bitter taste, and one which totally reinforces my (maybe old-school, biased) perception that if a tool doesn't say 'Made in Germany/England/Europe' or 'Made in the USA' on it - then it's not going to be as good as something which does say that on it. I'd love a manufacturer to prove me wrong.

Just my 10 cents worth.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 03:00 PM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline mino

  • Posts: 394
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2021, 01:41 PM »
I guess we all perceive things differently based on our own individual experience.
... snip ...
This is a good example where *moving* a given tool production causes a mess.

When a company introduces a model designed (and tested, design tuned etc.) from ground-up to be made in different country, they are likely to get it right.
When they go the "easy" way and save also the R&D doing a "let's just make the proven design at a cheaper location" approach it usually goes to ... add your favorite expletive.

The same would happen if a chinese-production-tuned tool design was "transferred" to US. Get a sufficiently different culture with a sufficiently "smart" bean-counter who assumes "people are just people" ... and ... it works. He gets his bonuses and if off faster than the consequences blow up.
So all good. Right?  [unsure]
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AGC 18@AGC 125 flange, BHC 18, C 12, CTM 36, DRC 18/4, PSC 420, RS 200, TSC 55
Protool: AGP 125, VCP 260
Narex: EDH 82, EFH 36@LR32, EVP 13 H-2CA, S 57 A
My Precious: 376, 376, 376 holy, 632, 1016 holy, 1400 holy, 2520, GECKO, GRS 16 PE, GRS 16 PE

Online _Ben_

  • Posts: 31
Re: Festool clamps now made in Vietnam?
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2021, 06:10 AM »
Just received a 4ah battery pack, dated 2020-06, made in China. All my 3.1/5.2 batteries are made in Poland. Not sure if its a technology thing or maybe a cost saving thing.

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