Author Topic: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?  (Read 1266 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 110
Hi - I am in a never-ending kitchen remodel in which I'm building new faceframes, doors and drawer fronts out of maple for my kitchen. COVID-19 caused me to put a pause on this, but am about to get back into it. My first inclination was to use the Domino 500 for the face frames, but the clamping time was killing me. The joints would have to be clamped overnight - and I kept running out of clamps. I also had some vertical alignment issues with the Domino glue-ups.
This drove me to use (gasp!) Kreg pockethole screws. Other than clamping them in the Kreg table for screwing them together, no clamp time necessary. I've learned that I don't like using Kreg screws in really hard wood like the maple I am using - that causes some alignment issues as the screws try to dig into the hard wood, and the occasional wood split as well.
So, I'm getting back to the Domino. I have since bought the Vac-Sys clamps and the various heads for it - that should help with getting consistent alignment. I've been thinking about types of glue that would avoid long clampup times.
Has anyone used the PUR hot melt adhesive with Domino joints? If so, the 30 or 60 second type?
Thanks!

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline Birdhunter

  • Posts: 3551
  • Woodworker, Sportsman, Retired
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 06:01 PM »
I have had luck with applying TB3 on the tenons, clamping, then driving in screws into both ends of the tenons. Once the screws are in, I can remove the clamps. I’ve also used brads instead of screws. I always predrill for the screws and the brads.
Birdhunter

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2885
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2021, 06:41 PM »
Snip.
I also had some vertical alignment issues with the Domino glue-ups.


May be too late now, but you can avoid alignment issues if you do face frames with only tight-to-tight mortise setting, using the paddles on the machine or the paddles on the base support bracket and a cross stop for registration:

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/the-domino-cross-stop-minimizes-pencil-lines-and-improves-precision/msg639859/#msg639859

The cross stop is invaluable in doing repetitive mortises without tedious marking, too.

When using tight-to-tight dominoes, you shouldn't need to apply a lot of pressure to bring the joint together. The Japanese method of clamping or tourniquet clamping with twine/rope can be considered.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 06:49 PM by ChuckM »

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 110
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2021, 07:11 PM »
I have had luck with applying TB3 on the tenons, clamping, then driving in screws into both ends of the tenons. Once the screws are in, I can remove the clamps. I’ve also used brads instead of screws. I always predrill for the screws and the brads.
I thought I was being clever by putting 23g pins in the Dominos to hold them together while the glue dried - but they didn't really help much. Hadn't thought of screws.

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 110
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2021, 07:14 PM »
Snip.
I also had some vertical alignment issues with the Domino glue-ups.


May be too late now, but you can avoid alignment issues if you do face frames with only tight-to-tight mortise setting, using the paddles on the machine or the paddles on the base support bracket and a cross stop for registration:

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-how-to/the-domino-cross-stop-minimizes-pencil-lines-and-improves-precision/msg639859/#msg639859

The cross stop is invaluable in doing repetitive mortises without tedious marking, too.

When using tight-to-tight dominoes, you shouldn't need to apply a lot of pressure to bring the joint together. The Japanese method of clamping or tourniquet clamping with twine/rope can be considered.
I think I was using tight-to-tight Dominoes - but was going to try tight-to-loose (medium) for horizontal alignment help. It was odd that I was getting Vertical alignment issues. Technique, plus using the Vac Sys to hold the parts while cutting the Dominoes should help...

Offline ChuckS

  • Posts: 2885
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2021, 07:18 PM »

It was odd that I was getting Vertical alignment issues. Technique, plus using the Vac Sys to hold the parts while cutting the Dominoes should help...

You used pencil lines, right? If you used the paddles for registration and misalignment happened, the paddles require calibration.

Offline Michael Kellough

  • Posts: 5281
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2021, 09:21 PM »
I’ve never used PUR adhesive but it seems like it must be much more viscous than Titebond and you’d never get a tight close fitting joint like you want ona face frame or door.

A combination of Dominoes and pocket screws work great on face frames. Use tight mortises on both sides.

You are using the fine thread screws made for hardwood right? You can also run the screw in reverse at high speed when starting to grind a bit of a pilot hole if alignment and splitting are still a problem.

I don’t get how the Vac-Sys will help with alignment whether using Dominoes or pocket screws.

If the surfaces of the parts aren’t flush after inserting Dominoes you might want to get a Domiplate. If they aren’t flush after driving in pocket screws you need to remember that the part that receives the screw needs to be clamped hard to the bench before driving the screw. Make it impossible for the part the screw passes through to “get ahead of” the other part.

For frame and panel doors or anything where both sides will be seen so you can’t use pocket screws you can pin the Dominoes with 18 gauge brads, 23 gauge is too small.

If making a bunch of similar sized doors you can make an assembly jig with alignment blocks and holes for adding clamps.

Buy more clamps.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 8894
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2021, 09:54 PM »
I'm a big fan of PUR adhesives...however using them to bond Domino joints would not be an option I would embrace.

The stuff's too thick as Michael noted. The sweet thing is the set time and the bond strength. If you can live with more than a 30-60 second set time...there are better options.

Be aware, that PUR has a shelf life to it, so between the cost of the adhesive and the cost of the gun applicator, some of those packages are beyond their expiration date before they've been purchased. The expiration date is on the outside of each tube. You can extend the shelf life of the PUR adhesive by placing it in a vacuum bag in the freezer.

I use Titebond III for Dominos and within 1 hour I remove the clamps, set the item aside to dry and by the next day, or even later in the same day, it's good-to-go.

I also hate pocket screws and haven't used them in at least 10 years...they can be a good option...but you have to make sure they don't rack the joint when you drive them home.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 09:46 AM by Cheese »

Offline Packard

  • Posts: 636
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2021, 09:53 AM »
I attempted to embrace the PUR adhesive early on (about 20 years ago).  I had hoped to use it for picture frames.  The very fast setting times sounded useful.  But it left a dark line at the joint and was not satisfactory for picture framing.

I then discovered that the adhesive has a fairly short shelf life, so only order what you can use in a few months.

If you don't require much time to setup the joint, then this can work.  But if it is a complex item to clamp, then it might set too fast.

Face frames are an ideal situation for pocket screws.  I've tried dowels, half laps and pocket screws and I have concluded that it does not make sense to re-invent the wheel on this.  I now stick with pocket screws.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 09:56 AM by Packard »

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 110
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2021, 02:03 PM »

You are using the fine thread screws made for hardwood right? You can also run the screw in reverse at high speed when starting to grind a bit of a pilot hole if alignment and splitting are still a problem.

I don’t get how the Vac-Sys will help with alignment whether using Dominoes or pocket screws.

If the surfaces of the parts aren’t flush after inserting Dominoes you might want to get a Domiplate. If they aren’t flush after driving in pocket screws you need to remember that the part that receives the screw needs to be clamped hard to the bench before driving the screw. Make it impossible for the part the screw passes through to “get ahead of” the other part.

For frame and panel doors or anything where both sides will be seen so you can’t use pocket screws you can pin the Dominoes with 18 gauge brads, 23 gauge is too small.

If making a bunch of similar sized doors you can make an assembly jig with alignment blocks and holes for adding clamps.

Buy more clamps.

Yes, I was using the fine-threaded Kreg screws, and clamping the pieces down on a Kreg table- which was usually ok, but too often still allowed misalignment as the screws were driven home - and sometimes even caused cracks in the maple.

The Vac Sys would help holding the pieces for Domino cutting - just making the process more smooth and consistent. I don't THINK I was resting the Domino on the MFT, but something was moving because I was getting inconsistent results. It could have been an issue with the gears in the Domino - I ended up getting it fixed.

Agreed that 23 gauge is too small.

Got more Bessey clamps... probably good to go one way or another.

Offline LDBecker

  • Posts: 110
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2021, 02:19 PM »
I'm a big fan of PUR adhesives...however using them to bond Domino joints would not be an option I would embrace.

The stuff's too thick as Michael noted. The sweet thing is the set time and the bond strength. If you can live with more than a 30-60 second set time...there are better options.

Be aware, that PUR has a shelf life to it, so between the cost of the adhesive and the cost of the gun applicator, some of those packages are beyond their expiration date before they've been purchased. The expiration date is on the outside of each tube. You can extend the shelf life of the PUR adhesive by placing it in a vacuum bag in the freezer.

I use Titebond III for Dominos and within 1 hour I remove the clamps, set the item aside to dry and by the next day, or even later in the same day, it's good-to-go.

I also hate pocket screws and haven't used them in at least 10 years...they can be a good option...but you have to make sure they don't rack the joint when you drive them home.

(Attachment Link)
I just ordered some PUR adhesive and a gun - I have to do a bunch window and door casings and wanted to try it. I am aware of the shelf life - vacuum sealing it is an interesting idea. Been thinking about getting a vacuum sealer and trying my hand at "sous vide" cooking. I had a steak cooked that way recently and it was wonderful...

I actually don't really mind pocket screws, but find them problematic with hard wood. For poplar, pine, redwood, cedar... no problem.

 

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 689
Re: PUR adhesive for Domino joints on maple cabinet face frames?
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2021, 08:53 PM »
I generally use an assembly glue from a company called Jowat. It is intended for dowel insertion machines. Although we nolonger use a glue insertion type machine, ours only uses water with pre-glued dowels, that is only for half of the job. When those already doweled parts are assembled into a carcass, glue is used on the other side of the joint and the whole thing goes into a press. In this (intended use) application, it only has to be in the press for something like 6 minutes.
It is still a PVA type glue, but a bit thicker, and obviously faster drying. It is white rather than the usual yellow.
Since Dominos are essentially an advanced form of dowel, it works great. The only issue I have ever had with it is speed. It tacks up and dries very quickly compared to the usual Titebond 2 that I have to either move quickly and get it clamped/squared or work in sub-assemblies. Simple 4 piece rectangular faceframes are no big deal, it's not that fast. It's not like superglue (CA), but once you put the pieces together, you should make sure that they are fully together and aligned.

It is intended for industrial use and we buy it in 5 gallon (18.9 L) buckets. I don't know if it is even available in smaller quantities?
Even though I have quite a few Bessey clamps, when doing several frames at a time, I usually just rotate them. After a few are assembled and clamped, I go back to the first ones and move those clamps to the newest one. There is no need to have more than a few actually in clamps at once.

I have tried the 23ga pins in the past and they might help a little by keeping the joints from moving around in a more complex assembly, but the natural deformation of the wood won't hold the joint like a clamp does.
Another thing to pay attention to is simple hydraulic force. The more dense the wood, the less glue it absorbs. So you can force more glue into the open spaces in particle board or plywood than you can with maple or even MDF. If you over-fill the domino mortices the clamps will push the glue out somewhere. With particle board, ply, or MDF, it will find somewhere to go, even splitting and coming out the edges of a 90 degree butt joint. Maple, not so much, so if you unclamp too soon, the joint can separate. This is especially the case with tight-tight joints, since there is less space for extra glue.
CSX
DF500 + assortment set
PS420 + Base kit
OF1010
OF1400
MFK700 (2)
TS55, FS1080, FS1400 holey, FS1900, FS3000
CT26E + Workshop cleaning set
RO90
RO125
ETS EC 125
RAS115
ETS 125 (2)
TS75
Shaper Origin/Workstation