Author Topic: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?  (Read 3642 times)

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Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« on: July 09, 2021, 02:23 PM »
Hi.

I'm researching the OF1400 as an upgrade to my Bosch 1617. I'm looking to upgrade primarily for the dust collection improvements offered by the 1400 and because I've been hooked into the overall system that Festool products offer.

I do a quite a bit of template routing and have been reading a lot of posts about bits not being centered when using PC style guide bushings, along with the numerous hacks to fix this. Most of the posts I found were dated 2007 - 2018. Hacks can be great, but I've been hacking dust collection on my Bosch router for years and would prefer to not have to trade one hack for another.

Some questions regarding the 1400:
- Are off-centered bits still an issue with current OF1400 models?
- Was the issue also prevalent when using standard Festool copy rings or just with the guide adapter/PC bushing?
- Are Festool copy rings also available in imperial sizes?
- If one wants to go rogue and work outside of the system, are DIY router base plates (similar to the Katz-Moses Router jig below) easily adaptable to the 1400?


One of the first projects I'd like to do with the 1400 is to create a dog hole grid in my workbench, but now that I'm working in a closed space without the ability to easily get outside to route, dust collection is much more important. The Bosch worked great on my last workbench but the dust, even when hooked up to a vacuum, was a bit much.

I'm hoping the 1400 will provide the awesome dust collection Festool is known for as well as being accurate when template routing.

Thanks for the feedback.



« Last Edit: July 09, 2021, 03:56 PM by 4nthony »
Anthony

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Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2021, 09:54 PM »

Being impatient, the only way I'd really know would be to just f&#%ing buy one and find out.  [cool]

My local Rockler had a couple in stock so my unscientific conclusion is that this particular OF 1400, unused, with a January 2021 build date, a 3/4" OD guide bushing, and a 3/8" upcut bit, looks to be just barely out of center.

I don't think my woodworking necessarily cares about such tolerances. I'll keep an eye on things after I actually make some cuts and see where it's at.



Also, there was a tiny bit of wiggle when fitting the guide bushing into the Festool adapter, but the same wiggle was there when putting the guide bushing into my Bosch adapter. I guess the main difference is if the guide bushing is slightly off when tightened on the Bosch, it can be centered with the mandrel; on the OF 1400 you get what you get (unless you use Boren Boran Theki's centering solution on YouTube).

Keeping my finger's crossed for imperial copy rings from Festool.  [unsure]

« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 03:18 AM by 4nthony »
Anthony

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8724
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2021, 10:16 PM »

Being impatient, the only way I'd really know would be to just f&#%ing buy one and find out.  [cool]

There are 2 elements that come in to play here, first is the ability or the inability of the guide bushing to center itself, some do...some don't and secondly is the movement of the guide bushing in the router base because it's not adequately captured in the router base when lateral pressure is applied. When significant side pressure is applied to the router, and thus the router bushing, there will be significant movement of the bushing to the tune of .005" to .008"...I can't remember the exact numbers but they are available on this site through some Googling.  [smile]

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/mft-hole-jigs/msg586456/#msg586456

It may be a deal breaker for some or it may be just a yawn...
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 08:19 AM by Cheese »

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1195
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2021, 02:16 AM »
Here's a link to the video 4nthony mentioned (I couldn't find it at first, because the guy's name is Boran, not Boren)



Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2021, 03:22 AM »
Here's a link to the video 4nthony mentioned (I couldn't find it at first, because the guy's name is Boran, not Boren)

Oops. Sorry about that!  [embarassed]
Anthony

Offline Frank-Jan

  • Posts: 1195
  • Dutch Canadian living in Belgium
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2021, 04:48 AM »
No worries, I just copy-pasted the name in youtube, and got a bunch of unrelated videos ( "boren" means drilling in Dutch), so I posted the link for future reference.
(I haven't run into accuracy problems when using my OF1400 with the metric copyrings)

Offline AstroKeith

  • Posts: 204
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2021, 06:02 AM »
I've had mine for about 18 months now.
Maybe I got lucky, but mine is as close to centred as I can measure and barely moves under pressure. I do a lot of dovetailing and seen no issues.

I got the threaded adapter plate and so it will accept any 'standard' Leigh style bush. I have both metric & imperial bushes.

Definitely the best Router I've ever had.
Retired engineer/scientist

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 429
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2021, 07:08 AM »
Guess I got lucky as well my 1400 is good and is 5 yrs. old….if it wasn’t, I’m afraid it would be a deal breaker
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 367
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2021, 06:42 PM »
Mine also fine. Cuts lovely dovetails on the Leigh jig.


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Offline rst

  • Posts: 2652
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2021, 07:48 PM »
I also have no problems with mine.  I do not use the standard centering cone however.  I made individual bits that are the exact diameter as the various ids of the imperial template rings I use, have not made for the metric Festool rings however as I have not needed that kind of precision for those yet,...I made the ones for the various 10 PC and Bosch routers I owned before my first Festools.

Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2021, 09:08 PM »
There are 2 elements that come in to play here, first is the ability or the inability of the guide bushing to center itself, some do...some don't and secondly is the movement of the guide bushing in the router base because it's not adequately captured in the router base when lateral pressure is applied. When significant side pressure is applied to the router, and thus the router bushing, there will be significant movement of the bushing to the tune of .005" to .008"...I can't remember the exact numbers but they are available on this site through some Googling.  [smile]

https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/other-tools-accessories/mft-hole-jigs/msg586456/#msg586456

It may be a deal breaker for some or it may be just a yawn...

At first I wasn't sure if you were referring to play in the threaded bushing or the adapter that holds the bushing, but then I saw your pictures in the referenced thread and that you mentioned tabs and realized you were referring to movement of the adapter itself rather than the threaded guide bushing.

Previously, I thought my tabbed adapter was rock solid, but If I push on it hard enough, I can also see some slight movement. Although, it felt like I was having to push way harder than I normally would when routing. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary earlier today when I made some test cuts. So far, so good!

This is such a great forum. The depth of knowledge available in near real-time as well as what can be found in the archives makes for an amazing resource. I appreciate the replies  [big grin]
Anthony

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8724
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2021, 11:14 PM »
Previously, I thought my tabbed adapter was rock solid, but If I push on it hard enough, I can also see some slight movement. Although, it felt like I was having to push way harder than I normally would when routing. I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary earlier today when I made some test cuts. So far, so good!

And well that is indeed the issue...how much lateral pressure do you need to exert on the router for it to perform like it should. If you're doing 1/4" thick inlays it's probably not a problem. If you're trying to hog out full depth holes in 20 mm ply with an undersized router bit, then it becomes an issue.

So...sometimes it bites you and sometimes it doesn't.  [smile]
« Last Edit: July 10, 2021, 11:27 PM by Cheese »

Offline CeeJay

  • Posts: 367
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2021, 11:26 PM »

And well that is indeed the issue...how much lateral pressure do you need to exert on the router for it to perform like it should. If you're doing 1/4" thick inlays it's probably not a problem. If you're trying to hog out full depth holes in 20 mm ply then it becomes an issue.

So...sometimes it bites you and sometimes it doesn't.  [smile]

Fair point, but my take is if you are working to the level of accuracy where such small movement is an issue, then you shouldn’t be hogging out full depth cuts in any case.


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Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8724
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2021, 11:38 PM »
I'm working to the level of placing multiple 20 mm diameter holes in 3/4" thick BB using a 1/2" diameter router bit. For a normal job it doesn't seem that tough but after following the manufacturers instructions the results weren't what I expected. I've since modified my technique and equipment.  [smile]

Here's the result BEFORE I modified my technique and equipment. This isn't a function of the Woodpeckers router fixture being out of round, this is a result of the guide bushing moving within the OF 1400 router under the HEAVY lateral pressure necessary to route the holes, full depth in 20 mm thick BB.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 09:46 PM by Cheese »

Offline rmhinden

  • Posts: 474
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2021, 12:51 AM »
Here's the result, this isn't a function of the router fixture being out of round, this is a result of the guide bushing moving within the OF 1400 router under the HEAVY lateral pressure necessary to route the holes in 20 mm thick BB.

@Cheese    That's less than ideal :-(

As far as I can tell the only Festool router that works well with guide bushings is the OF 1010.   

BTW, I recently got a Shaper Origin.   I have tried it for anything like this, but I suspect it can do it well.     I got an 8mm collet for it so I can use my OF1010 straight bits.

Bob
   

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8724
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2021, 01:26 AM »
That's less than ideal :-)

Now that’s funny…

Offline Vondawg

  • Posts: 429
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2021, 06:55 AM »
“As far as I can tell the only Festool router that works well with guide bushings is the OF1010”

*And the 2200….can’t forget it…and great two handed control and dust collection.
There are no mistakes....just new designs.

Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2021, 12:20 PM »
A few days after I registered my OF 1400 with Festool USA, I received an email inviting me to take a survey. I clicked through to the survey and after rating the router lower than 5/5 stars, I was asked to offer feedback as to why I chose my rating. I added comments regarding the template movement, centering issues, and included my contact info.

Yesterday I received a follow-up email from a customer service manager asking for additional information. I replied by including several links from FOG discussing the issue, included Cheese's photo above, and also sent a link to a Woodpeckers YouTube video (below) where Woodpeckers posted a comment acknowledging the 1400s movement.

I don't know if I'll personally hear what comes of this, but hopefully something will and the issue will eventually be resolved.

On that note, I bought a sheet of 3/8" acrylic and will attempt to make my own baseplate/bushing adapter.  [cool]



]

« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 01:27 PM by 4nthony »
Anthony

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 593
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2021, 09:10 PM »
A few days after I registered my OF 1400 with Festool USA, I received an email inviting me to take a survey. I clicked through to the survey and after rating the router lower than 5/5 stars, I was asked to offer feedback as to why I chose my rating. I added comments regarding the template movement, centering issues, and included my contact info.

Yesterday I received a follow-up email from a customer service manager asking for additional information. I replied by including several links from FOG discussing the issue, included Cheese's photo above, and also sent a link to a Woodpeckers YouTube video (below) where Woodpeckers posted a comment acknowledging the 1400s movement.

Did you actually experience deflection and movement on the guide bushing of the unit that you have, or did you rate the tool based on the experiences of others?  This post reads like the latter is the case...

Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2021, 10:26 PM »
Did you actually experience deflection and movement on the guide bushing of the unit that you have, or did you rate the tool based on the experiences of others?  This post reads like the latter is the case...

If I press on the guide bushing of my 1400, there is deflection and movement at the slots where the adapter plugs in. See reply #10 above. It's been a few days and there have been a few more cuts. There is definitely movement at the bushing. It varies depending on the cut and the pressure of the bushing against the template. Thanks for the reply.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 10:33 PM by 4nthony »
Anthony

Offline Mike Goetzke

  • Posts: 746
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2021, 09:04 AM »
Mine is off center but like many have mentioned (and shown) even if perfectly centered there is plenty of play with the snap-in bushing holder. I saw a video where a guy showed how to make a perfectly centered bushing holder for another brand router but should work for the 1400.

He used a transfer punch to accurately layout the holes in the base and then he used a small drill like bit in the router to punch the center hole. (There are several other steps but these are the key ones to center the bit.) Just surprises me with so many of these 1400's out there some company hasn't offered a bushing base for this router.

Offline grbmds

  • Posts: 2054
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2021, 09:54 AM »
Did you actually experience deflection and movement on the guide bushing of the unit that you have, or did you rate the tool based on the experiences of others?  This post reads like the latter is the case...

If I press on the guide bushing of my 1400, there is deflection and movement at the slots where the adapter plugs in. See reply #10 above. It's been a few days and there have been a few more cuts. There is definitely movement at the bushing. It varies depending on the cut and the pressure of the bushing against the template. Thanks for the reply.

When you used it to do what you bought it for . . . Did what you report have any effect on the desired result? In the end, that's really the important thing. If an observed "defect", if it is a defect, that does not have a negative impact on the result when employed in your work, is really of no significance.

If you feel that this does have an impact on the result or you have actually noted a problem when in use, then take advantage of the 30-day return policy. There is no reason to pay Festool prices for a tool that you have no confidence in.
Randy

Offline squall_line

  • Posts: 593
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2021, 10:00 AM »
Did you actually experience deflection and movement on the guide bushing of the unit that you have, or did you rate the tool based on the experiences of others?  This post reads like the latter is the case...

If I press on the guide bushing of my 1400, there is deflection and movement at the slots where the adapter plugs in. See reply #10 above. It's been a few days and there have been a few more cuts. There is definitely movement at the bushing. It varies depending on the cut and the pressure of the bushing against the template. Thanks for the reply.

Reply #10 above says "I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary earlier today when I made some test cuts. So far, so good!", that's why I was confused.

Offline 4nthony

  • Posts: 18
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2021, 01:22 PM »
Reply #10 above says "Previously, I thought my tabbed adapter was rock solid, but If I push on it hard enough, I can also see some slight movement. Although, it felt like I was having to push way harder than I normally would when routing.I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary earlier today when I made some test cuts. So far, so good!", that's why I was confused.

Added my full paragraph to your quoted text. I should have noted that my "so far, so good" test cuts were made in butter 3/4" MDF  [cool]

Seven days on since purchasing the router, I've noticed a few things that can influence movement including the type of wood, how much material is being removed, the sharpness of the bit, and the pressure exerted on the bushing. Initiating movement in the adapter is possible, but I believe movement can be avoided with safe routing practices (shallow cuts, multiple passes, sharp bits, etc.)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 03:45 PM by 4nthony »
Anthony

Offline tallgrass

  • Posts: 978
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2021, 12:49 AM »
I have several 1400s and I use them with guides as well as the 20mm guide jig. Works perfectly. I am glad I do not have any of these issues. Because of this thread I actually took mine to the furnace plate and started checking them out. All of them. my 2- 1010s, 2-1400s as well as my 4-2000s. As well as my Makitas. Thankfully , for my sanity, they all were fantastic. As a mechanical engineer, I would caution about trying to come to grips with deflection testing. Rigidity and or stiffness, can be a rabbit hole of chasing zeros. I was an early adopter of the the dominofix plate. Which would suffer if my 1400s had repeatability problems. I even did deflection tests to figure our what an acceptable amount of side loading was acceptable. I feel sorry for people who are having this problem. It would be interesting if this is a batch problem or represents a different QAQC issue.

Offline JonathanJung

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    • Timberlight Designs
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2021, 12:51 AM »
Bottom line is that it's a terrible design. After 3 years with my 1400 I never use it with a bushing, because I can't rely on it to not move. Would rather be making stuff than fiddling around with a silly adapter plate. So I have another router that does what it's supposed to.

Offline Cypren

  • Posts: 153
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2021, 01:19 AM »
From my observation, the problem isn't so much the router, which is probably very tightly QC'd, as it is the inserts, which I suspect are not. I have a large number of inserts for both the OF2200 and OF1400, and while most of them fit tightly with maximum measurable deflection of less than 0.1mm, two of them don't and can show deflection of up to 0.4mm. The issue seems to be that the clips that latch into the router aren't bent at the proper angle, but I haven't yet tried to correct the problem myself to see if it can be fixed since I'm worried about making the issue worse.

Offline JonathanJung

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    • Timberlight Designs
Re: OF1400 - Are centering issues still a concern?
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2021, 09:52 AM »
From my observation, the problem isn't so much the router, which is probably very tightly QC'd, as it is the inserts, which I suspect are not. I have a large number of inserts for both the OF2200 and OF1400, and while most of them fit tightly with maximum measurable deflection of less than 0.1mm, two of them don't and can show deflection of up to 0.4mm. The issue seems to be that the clips that latch into the router aren't bent at the proper angle, but I haven't yet tried to correct the problem myself to see if it can be fixed since I'm worried about making the issue worse.

It will likely make the issue worse...trust me, I tried. If you try tightening the tabs, then they won't work with the latches.