Author Topic: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!  (Read 6388 times)

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Offline mickmick

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Having spent considerable money on an of1400 and now the lr32 system, I find that coming to use the two tools, there is no 8mm collet provided with the of1400 to use any of the cutters provided with the lr32 jig.
Really really unimpressed with this festool.
How much does an 8mm collet cost a large company like festool?
How much do disappointed customers cost a company?
A lot if you express that disappointment to others in the trade...
“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline mickmick

  • Posts: 45
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2019, 12:25 PM »
After a search I now see the 8mm collet costs £50!
“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 655
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2019, 12:53 PM »
After a search I now see the 8mm collet costs £50!

Are you sure? Mine did. Is there a P/N printed on it? can't find it.

But measuring, I got a 12mm and 8mm collect in the systainer. Its on the rightside just under the fence.There are slots to hold 2 collects.The 12mm was installed, the 8mm sits there waiting ...  [tongue]

 Sure its not in?

Offline mickmick

  • Posts: 45
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2019, 12:59 PM »
Mine comes with a 12mm and a 6mm :-\
“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

Offline Frank-Jan

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2019, 01:09 PM »
According to the festool.co.uk site. It comes with 1/2" and 1/4" collets. (I got mine in the Netherlands, and it came with 8 mm and 12 mm. link to of 1400 on festool uk site

Offline elfick

  • Posts: 680
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2019, 01:11 PM »
In the US we get 1/4, 1/2, and 8mm.... but no side fence.

Offline mickmick

  • Posts: 45
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2019, 01:56 PM »
Shambles
Kind of thing I would expect from a really budget manufacturer.
“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart.”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Crime and Punishment

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 542
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2019, 02:14 PM »
It is a bit cheeky.

Remember my mate moaning after he bought his CSX drill for £200 that he had to spend another £25 on a decent bit holder as the one that came with it was rubbish.

Offline Phil Beckley

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2019, 05:30 PM »
Hi
Initially all the routers into the U.K. were supplied with metric collets....and all complained that we did this - so it was decided that specific with the U.K. use of imperial size cutters the routers would be supplied with imperial collets hence the difference to Europe supplied machines
Rg
Phil
Festool U.K.

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2019, 06:30 PM »
I have both, the OF 1400 & the LR 32 System. The OF 1400 came with 8mm and 1/2" collets. The LR 32 came with two bits both 8mm shank.

I also have 2 Dewalt, Makita and a Ridgid routers. All of them came with a single collet.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 06:32 PM by Mario Turcot »
Mario

Offline Doug S

  • Posts: 542
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2019, 07:08 PM »
In Festool UK defence I have had my OF1400 since it came out and have never had a need for an 8mm collet, it is not a size we use here. 

In mick mick defence it sounds like they get one in the rest of Europe and America so would be nice if we got one or at least got one with the LR 32 kit, after all it is a "system".

You don't get a side fence in the US, now I am confused  [blink]

Offline Peter Halle

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2019, 08:29 PM »
Everyone reading here should note that the items supplied with with the routers might vary based on location.

So to just read that "he got this but I didn't" without knowing about where people live might lead to wrong impressions.

Peter

Offline mickmick

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2019, 04:05 AM »
The fact that a festool employee and a moderator have stepped into this thread is ample evidence of how embarassing it is for festool to sell a £500 jig (lr32) designed to work with a £400 router and because you're in the Uk, we will skimp on providing the collet needed for the system to work.
£50 is also an extortionate amount for a collet.
It is a complete pain to have to order this extra part and wait for it to arrive before continuing with the work at hand.
These ridiculous cost cutting inconveniences to customers are the kind of practise I associate with cheap manufacturers like Draper or Silverline, and not a premium tool manufacturer like Festool.
At the very very least Festool should make it clear at the point of sale of the LR32 that other parts are needed for the system to work.
But Festool see them as extras and the customer will have to work out and pay for seperately  ::)
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 04:30 AM by mickmick »
“Pain and suffering are always inevitable for a large intelligence and a deep heart.”
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Offline Doug S

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 04:24 AM »
On Axminster website the LR32 has a review saying it is a fantastic bit of kit but the reviewer has a moan about needing the 8mm collet extra.

Offline threesixright

  • Posts: 655
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2019, 04:43 AM »
Seems to me people here are comparing apples and oranges.

Maybe the US kit comes without the collet, but the kit is also much cheaper then here in the EU.
  • EU - EUR 765 (2 collets)
  • UK - GBP 686 (2 collets)
  • US - USD 600

Website in the US seems a bit wanky, missing picture of what you get.

Offline woodbilder

  • Posts: 180
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2019, 01:21 PM »
I seem to recall picking up the 8mm collet somewhere numerous years ago, but it seems that Fst could offer the collet(s) as an ordering or sales option and yes that would add admin cost, so at a minimum, better point it out in the literature of what is included. This whole flap does not speak well of the product.
Start slow, wind down gracefully

Offline Bob Wolfe

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2019, 08:40 PM »
If you don't like it, stop complaining and send it back. Next time read what you get for you coin.
BW

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2019, 09:30 PM »
I think part that gets lost in this is that sales of the inch collets should have stopped as part of a phase out by all companies. Get everyone globally metric and reduce the number of sizes.  If festool has just mm collets to start they should have stuck with that and created a market for mm bits in markets they were not currently in use.

Like other discussions that have been had, by offering up modifications/changes to some markets so they don't have to update their ways you just make the problem worse. You can't kill something if you keep feeding it life support.

Having both inch and metric, and multiple sizes of both is just costing everyone more money.

Also it gets back to the same problem for those who are in markets that are historically inch, that now they are going to have to go buy different collets while the ones their tool comes with just sit to the side. If someone is in a position like me and only has a couple router bits, I just want to be able to move forward with just metric shank bits and never think about inch based ones. Having obsolete, backwards and none standard forced on you because of those around you does not make for happy people.

In this situation this would be at the very least a good case to sell the routers with no collets and let people pick which ones they want on their own as a separate item.

Offline Mario Turcot

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2019, 09:42 PM »
Having both inch and metric, and multiple sizes of both is just costing everyone more money.

True that 100%.

However the problem do not reside solely with the router. The LR32 system comes with two bits and the question is more like: Should Festool provide a collet that fit those two bits or offer different bit shank? The former seems logical to me, but then you may end up with an extra collet you will never use. What ever the route a company takes people always find a way to complain. In this case I believe the customer is right to do so.
Mario

Offline James Biddle

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2019, 06:09 PM »
I bought the OF1400 back in 2005 and it came with 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2" collets back then.  Looks like they changed the kit.

Offline elfick

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2019, 09:33 PM »
I bought the OF1400 back in 2005 and it came with 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2" collets back then.  Looks like they changed the kit.

@James Biddle I bought mine 2 weeks ago and it still comes with all 3 collets (in the USA)

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2019, 09:38 PM »
I bought the OF1400 back in 2005 and it came with 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2" collets back then.  Looks like they changed the kit.

@James Biddle I bought mine 2 weeks ago and it still comes with all 3 collets (in the USA)

Surprised Festool didn't change the labeling to say it comes with 1/4". 5/16" and 1/2" collets in the N.A. market.

Online ian.atkinson

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2022, 02:58 PM »
Hi everyone,

First post, I hope this is useful! For anyone else who arrives here from Google after purchasing an OF1400 and an LR32 then getting raged up at the 8mm parts I found a cheap solution. I got the set without the bits so I only need to be able to chuck up the centering mandrel not even any cutters.

I think Festool should either include two centering mandrels (1/4" and 8mm) so everyone can use it or change the part to have a shaft with both diameters (like part #492187).

Anyway, I've discovered you can get reducing collets which are a lot cheaper than a whole new collet e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CLT-SLV-8127-Collet-Sleeve/dp/B00382U57A/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2T1IBZPHY9B1R&keywords=reducing+collet+8mm&qid=1663267799&sprefix=reducing+collet+8mm%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-5

So I'm going to get that for 12 quid which will let me use the 8mm mandrel with the 1/2" collet.

Ian

Offline Bob D.

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2022, 04:41 PM »
You can also get one of my 1/4" x 40mm centering mandrels.
They are made for use with my LR32 Adapters but will work
with the OF1400 and Festool LR32 Guide Plate.

They are $6 each including postage to the lower 48 States.

PM me if interested.
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Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2022, 06:11 PM »
Hi everyone,

First post, I hope this is useful! For anyone else who arrives here from Google after purchasing an OF1400 and an LR32 then getting raged up at the 8mm parts I found a cheap solution. I got the set without the bits so I only need to be able to chuck up the centering mandrel not even any cutters.

I think Festool should either include two centering mandrels (1/4" and 8mm) so everyone can use it or change the part to have a shaft with both diameters (like part #492187).

Anyway, I've discovered you can get reducing collets which are a lot cheaper than a whole new collet e.g.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CLT-SLV-8127-Collet-Sleeve/dp/B00382U57A/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2T1IBZPHY9B1R&keywords=reducing+collet+8mm&qid=1663267799&sprefix=reducing+collet+8mm%2Caps%2C63&sr=8-5

So I'm going to get that for 12 quid which will let me use the 8mm mandrel with the 1/2" collet.

Ian

I'm not a fan of reducing collars in collets. A lot of them require inordinate amounts of force to maintain hold and even then under load the cutter can shift. I think for the one time extra cost it's better, and safer to spring for the correct collet, just my opinion though!

Online Cheese

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2022, 06:33 PM »
I'm not a fan of reducing collars in collets. A lot of them require inordinate amounts of force to maintain hold and even then under load the cutter can shift. I think for the one time extra cost it's better, and safer to spring for the correct collet, just my opinion though!

I agree 100% with the excessive force statement AND the reducing collars can also introduce concentricity issues. For the few extra dollars I’d purchase the correct collet.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2022, 08:04 PM »
This is one of those cases where it works for some people and others are not going to like it. It's a no-win situation.
The whole 8mm vs 5/16" is going to be a thing though. "Technically" there are no actual 5/16" bits out there, other than the 5/16" solid carbide up-spiral straight bit....that's it. Those have usually been adapted to work, or in an ER type collet on a CNC. There is minimal difference 5/16"=.312 and 8mm=.315 but nearly nothing is sold as 5/16", so collets just aren't made for them. They don't come with any routers sold in US markets.
8mm however is really a thing. They are available as steel shank and brazed carbide, like any other, in lots of profiles. Just a heavier-duty version with a thicker shank, mid-range.
They are not common in the US, which is why I thought it was weird that it came with the OF1400, when I first bought it. The MFK700 comes with an 8mm also, as does the OF1010, so I just embraced it and started looking for sources.
At this point, I have very few 1/4" bits, other than some for laminate trimming.

When I first started with this forum, I learned about the differences depending upon delivery area. I also found it odd that in the UK they use imperial sizes? I would have expected 6mm and 12mm to be equivalent to the US, but apparently not? 1/4" and 1/2" are the norm.


Edge-guide vs 8mm collet would be a hard choice, if I had to make it. The edge-guide costs more, so if you would use it? might be better. 8mm bits aren't common here, but if you have some (or have the LR-32 system) that preferred. I would just buy it and moved on....than again, I use the OF1010 for the LR-32.  [unsure]
As far as the cost? Try pricing a collet for the typical Milwaukee full-size router, the 1/4" is $36 and the 1/2" is $39 (in the US at least) Everything Festool costs more, so it not that much.
To me it seems worse that they want $39 for a collet to a router that you can buy for $225.
$50 for a collet on a router that sells for $650, percentage-wise is actually better.
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Offline Bob D.

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2022, 08:12 PM »
Elaire Corporation has reasonable priced collets made in the USA for many models and brands of routers.

I have nothing to do with them, just a happy customer.

https://elairecorp.com/routercollets/
-----
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Online Coen

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2022, 09:22 PM »
This is one of those cases where it works for some people and others are not going to like it. It's a no-win situation.

No, it's just one more case where an ridiculously outdated measurements system is hampering some parts of the world.

Festool should have just never given in to this imperial nonsense.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 09:26 PM by Coen »

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2022, 09:33 PM »
This is one of those cases where it works for some people and others are not going to like it. It's a no-win situation.

No, it's just one more case where an ridiculously outdated measurements system is hampering some parts of the world.

Festool should have just never given in to this imperial nonsense.

As much as OZ embraces metric, pretty much ALL router bits available to us are 1/4" or 1/2", the only time you come across 8mm/10mm cutters is via tools usually destined for the European market, and maybe some oddball ones like the Leigh jig cutters. So we would be screwed without the imperial collets.

Offline mino

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2022, 11:42 PM »
...
To me it seems worse that they want $39 for a collet to a router that you can buy for $225.
$50 for a collet on a router that sells for $650, percentage-wise is actually better.
Correct.

And, in reality, it is actually "better" for Festool here.

Some story:
--------------
The Festool collets are very high quality, so the cost is justified. For reference, when Narex /Festool sister brand here/ sold their router - OF1010 internals in a simplified chasis - they used THE SAME collect as OF1010 uses.

Guess how much it cost ?
Yes. They sold a collect for a $200(isch) router for $40 (Festool SKU of the same cost $50 at the time). And that is for a brand which had minimal warranty and price-focused /at Festool-class durability/. And only a single collect was provided - 8mm - with it.

In other words, those collets ARE EXPENSIVE to manufacture. Any added to an SKU is $40 added to the price. Give-take. These things are no $1 chinesium pieces.

That is also the reason one sees most cheapo routers pack 4 or more collects. Those collects are weak and/or imprecise and are dirt cheap to add for that reason.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2022, 11:44 PM by mino »
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Festool USA does not pre-approve the contents of this website nor endorse the application or use of any Festool product in any way other than in the manner described in the Festool Instruction Manual. To reduce the risk of serious injury and/or damage to your Festool product, always read, understand and follow all warnings and instructions in your Festool product's Instruction Manual. Although Festool strives for accuracy in the website material, the website may contain inaccuracies. Festool makes no representations about the accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of the material on this website or about the results to be obtained from using the website. Festool and its affiliates cannot be responsible for improper postings or your reliance on the website's material. Your use of any material contained on this website is entirely at your own risk. The content contained on this site is provided for informational purposes only and does not constitute professional advice.


Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #31 on: September 16, 2022, 12:34 AM »
I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

Online woodbutcherbower

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #32 on: September 16, 2022, 03:01 AM »
This is one of those cases where it works for some people and others are not going to like it. It's a no-win situation.

No, it's just one more case where an ridiculously outdated measurements system is hampering some parts of the world.

Festool should have just never given in to this imperial nonsense.

As much as OZ embraces metric, pretty much ALL router bits available to us are 1/4" or 1/2", the only time you come across 8mm/10mm cutters is via tools usually destined for the European market, and maybe some oddball ones like the Leigh jig cutters. So we would be screwed without the imperial collets.

This ^^^^ The UK’s exactly the same. Virtually 100% metric, but router bits are still predominantly half-inch or quarter-inch. Most are, however, actually manufactured to metric sizes - 12.7mm and 6.35mm accordingly. Describing any system of measurement as ‘ridiculously outdated nonsense’ is missing the point. That’s what the majority of woodworkers in NA still use. It’s what they know, it’s what they were taught, it works for them, it’s what they’re familiar and comfortable with. Any/all of that shouldn’t be any basis for judgemental criticism just because it’s done differently in other countries. It’s like giving the rest of the world a hard time because they speak a different language.

FWIW - I’d also make the point that complaints about ‘the xxxx wasn’t included with the machine’ are also unfair. Just read the clear and itemised ‘what comes in the box’ product specs before you order. When I bought my OF2200 many years ago, I didn’t just assume that it came with a parallel fence, because I’d taken 30 seconds out of my day to check first, so I knew I’d also need to purchase the accessory set. Life’s only complicated if we choose to make it so.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 04:12 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Online ian.atkinson

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #33 on: September 16, 2022, 03:07 AM »
I'm not a fan of reducing collars in collets. A lot of them require inordinate amounts of force to maintain hold and even then under load the cutter can shift. I think for the one time extra cost it's better, and safer to spring for the correct collet, just my opinion though!

I agree 100% with the excessive force statement AND the reducing collars can also introduce concentricity issues. For the few extra dollars I’d purchase the correct collet.

I don't think I would want to use one of the collars with actual cutters but as I was saying the only thing I need to chuck is the mandrel so I don't even need to turn the router on with it in, just align the screws. The adapter is £12 the collet is about £56 so it's nearly 5x the cost, not worth it just for the mandrel.

Ian

Offline luvmytoolz

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2022, 05:13 AM »
FWIW - I’d also make the point that complaints about ‘the xxxx wasn’t included with the machine’ are also unfair. Just read the clear and itemised ‘what comes in the box’ product specs before you order. When I bought my OF2200 many years ago, I didn’t just assume that it came with a parallel fence, because I’d taken 30 seconds out of my day to check first, so I knew I’d also need to purchase the accessory set. Life’s only complicated if we choose to make it so.

Completely agree, and I'd actually say that when it comes to the Festool routers I didn't mind at all paying a premium to buy premium tools, the OF1400 and the OF2200 far exceeded my expectations, so I have no qualms whatsoever at buying a good quality collet in the size I need.

I thought my trusty old ELU MOF177E was the best router ever made when I bought it new, but the OF2200 blows it and every other router I've ever had out of the water. It is an absolute beast but incredibly smooth and quiet, and very,very well balanced. This is the usability and quality you pay for IMHO, so I think it's a bit pointless to complain about the configuration sold. Same as the sanders, would it kill Festool to put more than one lousy sanding disc in the systainer, probably not? Do I care, no, as I'm buying the sander, and as the discs are such great value and last so long I'll also happily buy whatever discs I want.

I've had enough cheap tools over the years to really make me appreciate just how far ahead of the curve Festool is with a lot of their stuff, and recognise that it comes at a relevant price point.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2022, 05:20 AM »
I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

I agree.
-----
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Online Coen

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2022, 05:29 AM »
This is one of those cases where it works for some people and others are not going to like it. It's a no-win situation.

No, it's just one more case where an ridiculously outdated measurements system is hampering some parts of the world.

Festool should have just never given in to this imperial nonsense.

As much as OZ embraces metric, pretty much ALL router bits available to us are 1/4" or 1/2", the only time you come across 8mm/10mm cutters is via tools usually destined for the European market, and maybe some oddball ones like the Leigh jig cutters. So we would be screwed without the imperial collets.

This ^^^^ The UK’s exactly the same. Virtually 100% metric, but router bits are still predominantly half-inch or quarter-inch. Most are, however, actually manufactured to metric sizes - 12.7mm and 6.35mm accordingly. Describing any system of measurement as ‘ridiculously outdated nonsense’ is missing the point. That’s what the majority of woodworkers in NA still use. It’s what they know, it’s what they were taught, it works for them, it’s what they’re familiar and comfortable with. Any/all of that shouldn’t be any basis for judgemental criticism just because it’s done differently in other countries. It’s like giving the rest of the world a hard time because they speak a different language.

FWIW - I’d also make the point that complaints about ‘the xxxx wasn’t included with the machine’ are also unfair. Just read the clear and itemised ‘what comes in the box’ product specs before you order. When I bought my OF2200 many years ago, I didn’t just assume that it came with a parallel fence, because I’d taken 30 seconds out of my day to check first, so I knew I’d also need to purchase the accessory set. Life’s only complicated if we choose to make it so.

It's not about is being different, but about it being inferior. Every year way more patients
are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated.

Same with languages. Some are just too complicated while still lacking detailed expressions, like my own Dutch. But the only thing localized around that is the manuals who nobody reads anyway.

Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2022, 06:10 AM »
It's not about is being different, but about it being inferior. Every year way more patients
are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated.

I would actually disagree quite strongly on this, I consider it more than reasonable for any suitably trained professional to perform their job in an adequate fashion, if that requires using a calculator on occasion, or simply remembering simple common conversions, then that is the very minimum they should be able to do competently.

The problem I see, is that no matter how much you dumb down anything to make it idiot proof, they'll simply go ahead and invent a better idiot.

Holding people to a higher standard is what should be happening.

Offline Bob D.

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2022, 09:57 AM »
"Every year way more patients are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated."

Could you cite some examples of this Imperial confusion of which you speak? My memory is not perfect but I can not remember ever hearing of an event involving a miscalculation in a dose or application in the medical profession. I have no doubt it has happened, just not with the regularity that you imply. And if this were happening, I would think the numbers would go down; because the previous years events would highlight the need to pay attention when dispensing medications; not up which would imply a total disregard for the health and safety of patients.

The US diverged from the British Imperial System in early 1800s and has been using the USC (United Sates Customary) system since that time.

Yes, many here still refer to our system as Imperial, myself included at times. But it is not 100% the same as the British Imperial System of measurement from the early 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units

My doctors all use metric system. My height and weight are recorded in cm and kg, and all the meds I have ever received have been dispensed in mg or ml.
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Online Coen

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2022, 11:43 AM »
It's not about is being different, but about it being inferior. Every year way more patients
are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated.

I would actually disagree quite strongly on this, I consider it more than reasonable for any suitably trained professional to perform their job in an adequate fashion, if that requires using a calculator on occasion, or simply remembering simple common conversions, then that is the very minimum they should be able to do competently.

The problem I see, is that no matter how much you dumb down anything to make it idiot proof, they'll simply go ahead and invent a better idiot.

Holding people to a higher standard is what should be happening.

Every unnecessary step that involves humans introduces chances for errors to occur. That is why technical designs often require subassemblies that are not possible to assemble the wrong way, or if so, give clear indication that it's wrong before they leave the factory. Designs are analyzed by thinking about everything that can go wrong. Things that go wrong without prior warning and might have lethal consequences are given the highest score. Designs often have to be changed to avoid those highest scores. In select cases where this cannot be avoided, control of correct assembly might be done at three different steps along the production line and photographed before leaving the factory.

Any such decent analysis of medical professionals converting units would conclude that this is a wholly unnecessary and unwanted step that should be gotten rid off.

The funny thing is that the metric system was implemented in a lot of countries due to being overrun by Napoleon. The USA isn't really in the business of getting overrun, but more or less in trying to run other countries, but their army is doing it while using metric  [tongue].

"Every year way more patients are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated."

Could you cite some examples of this Imperial confusion of which you speak? My memory is not perfect but I can not remember ever hearing of an event involving a miscalculation in a dose or application in the medical profession. I have no doubt it has happened, just not with the regularity that you imply. And if this were happening, I would think the numbers would go down; because the previous years events would highlight the need to pay attention when dispensing medications; not up which would imply a total disregard for the health and safety of patients.

The US diverged from the British Imperial System in early 1800s and has been using the USC (United Sates Customary) system since that time.

Yes, many here still refer to our system as Imperial, myself included at times. But it is not 100% the same as the British Imperial System of measurement from the early 1800s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_customary_units

My doctors all use metric system. My height and weight are recorded in cm and kg, and all the meds I have ever received have been dispensed in mg or ml.

This has come up in similar discussions before, but can't find the same link. There is one behind a paywall, but the few lines that can be read already are pretty clear;
https://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20150501/NEWS/150509993/a-gram-of-prevention-providers-urged-to-go-metric-to-avoid-medication-errors

In the previous discussion it was something like this; nurse weighs a kid, converts the kg weight to lbs to tell to the parents, goes to the computer, enters the lbs weight instead of the kg weight and the computer subsequently prescribes a dose about 2.2x too high.

Yes, the inch was changed to be exactly 25.4mm  [big grin]
Black & Decker (used to?) print a conversion table on their Workmate. Even that table wasn't correct.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 11:48 AM by Coen »

Offline mino

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #40 on: September 16, 2022, 12:29 PM »
To re-answer the OP:

@mickmick
I would suggest to add "in UK" to the post as it is UK-specific.

As for the answer:
Because Festool UK believes the UK customers prefer lower cost /by 40 GBP or so/ to having all three of the main collets.

Also I believe to make the OF1400 /originally/ the same cost bracket across the EU, Festool shipps 2 collects for all (former) EU markets. Imperial for UK and metric for non-UK. But two collects all the time. Over here the OF 1400 comes with two collets as well - the 8mm and the 12 mm ones.

I believe it is only in the US that 3 collets are provides in the /higher-price/ package.

...
The funny thing is that the metric system was implemented in a lot of countries due to being overrun by Napoleon.
...
Eh, it was the Germans who overran the French in 1870 ... and then agreed to adopt, or, to be precise, agree to the system, BECAUSE IT WAS PRACTICAL and definitely superior to the NON-STANDARD systems of the time. The Germans were looking to setup their own standard for the same reasons but once the war was over /so politics was out of the way/  there was nothing preventing a cooperative agreement.

The varios standards called, today, "Imperial" came to be only as a reaction to the SI effort. The "metrification" of the old "standard inch" in the 20th century was no accident either.

What many people do not know is that the SI systems are based on fundamental physics. Initially, it was the approximation of 1/40.000.000 of the Earth's circumference which was later redefined based on physical constants. But it was already conceived as a "universal" tool intentionally skipping human proportions as any kind of a reference.

Also, it was not born as "The French system". I was born on the ashes of an absolutist monarchy as "The Scientist's system". The French revolution just created the atmosphere where Science was sufficiently respected to be allowed to flourish over politics. This is why Germans went full-in on it. It just made practical sense.

ED: 1870, of course...  [embarassed]
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 12:32 PM by mino »
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Online Coen

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2022, 12:50 PM »
It might have been different in Germany, but in NL it was the French that occupied our country that introduced it and after that our "own" king decided it should stay because it was superior.

Offline mino

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2022, 07:39 PM »
It might have been different in Germany, but in NL it was the French that occupied our country that introduced it and after that our "own" king decided it should stay because it was superior.
Ah, so you got "lucky" and had the "French" system, before it became the "SI" aka "Systéme Internationale".

Was not aware, that must have been only at a few places. Most accepted it only after the conferences in the late 1870s. Half a century later. Just one more piece into how extremely meritocratic the Netherlands' "merchant state" was and is still.
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Offline Mini Me

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2022, 10:00 PM »
I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

i have just finished building a router table using a CNC spindle and the ER20 collets with a VFD, way better than any router.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #44 on: September 17, 2022, 04:45 AM »
I must admit, since I got my first CNC machine many years ago, I have wondered why router manufacturers didn't standardize on ER20 collets instead of unique ones specific to their products. Could be a warranty concern with cheap crappy ones being used by the end user, or maybe purely profit. Or perhaps just wanting the ability to control the whole experience and therefore the expectations of the end users in maintaining a quality product?

ER20 across the board for 1/2" routers and ER11 for trimmers would be pretty darn useful though!

I would say that it is purely about cost, which translates to profit for them. If they keep things proprietary, the odds of you buying a new collet directly from them increases dramatically.
Certainly, there are costs involved in making spare parts of all kinds, as far as making them available, etc. But, there is no way that in a Milwaukee router that sells for $225, the collet cost is that high in proportion.

The ER type would be a great way to make this more universal, but same as battery platforms, that is not in the best interest of the manufacturers.
Obviously router collets are not the profit potential of batteries, because the volume has to be far lower, but it is probably the only "part" that most people would ever replace.

At least in the US, batteries are the profit thing. The cost of batteries as spare parts is so high that the tool is effectively free. If you buy 2 batteries, the cost is very close to the total cost of the whole set, which includes the tool and charger. (at least with drills/drivers) Sometimes it's even less when there are specials/sales. You can potentially buy a new drill for less than the cost of batteries separately.
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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #45 on: September 17, 2022, 06:25 AM »
Well, a lot of smaller tool companies are now switching from proprietary battery to Metabo / Bosch / Makita battery. So there is a bit of standardization going on there. But still all the big brands kept their own system.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #46 on: September 17, 2022, 02:32 PM »
Well, a lot of smaller tool companies are now switching from proprietary battery to Metabo / Bosch / Makita battery. So there is a bit of standardization going on there. But still all the big brands kept their own system.

I have heard that, but it's a European thing. In the US about all you can do is use adapters. There are a few companies that make adapters to use some batteries with other brands of tools. As far as I have seen though, you still need the correct charger. You can't charge with an adapter installed.
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Offline mino

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #47 on: September 17, 2022, 09:20 PM »
I have heard that, but it's a European thing. In the US about all you can do is use adapters. There are a few companies that make adapters to use some batteries with other brands of tools. As far as I have seen though, you still need the correct charger. You can't charge with an adapter installed.
Yep, but the "smaller tool companies" thing is actually what is "The European Thing" here.

What Coen meant are those small /as in "TSO small"/ companies which operate in the mid-to-high end market and produce one or only a few tool types on which they specialize. For those partnering with some big brand is a no-brainer. Metabo pioneered this with their battery aliance and the other big folks reacted to align.

I do not believe there are such small companies /anymore/ in the US. In this context, someone like Mafell or Fein would be considered "big" ...
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Offline Bertotti

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2022, 04:29 PM »
It's not about is being different, but about it being inferior. Every year way more patients
are poisoned by their doctor under the inperial measurements system because it's too complicated.

I would actually disagree quite strongly on this, I consider it more than reasonable for any suitably trained professional to perform their job in an adequate fashion, if that requires using a calculator on occasion, or simply remembering simple common conversions, then that is the very minimum they should be able to do competently.

The problem I see, is that no matter how much you dumb down anything to make it idiot proof, they'll simply go ahead and invent a better idiot.

Holding people to a higher standard is what should be happening.

This for sure, my industry is know for getting employees of less than stellar intelligence. Some are ignorant, never been taught, some are stupid, incapable of learning. I use imperial for every thing I do, it isn’t rocket science but for the occasional stupid person I will use metric because it is easier to teach in some cases yet I still get people who can’t even grasp that.

I stick with imperial 95% of the time heck even the equipment I work on is a mix or imperial and or metric. That drives me nuts but for a lot of our engineers it is just another step in the specifications they use to determines items needed for a specific torque shear strength size. Etc….

Not sure what the big deal is if you do t want imperial in your country just don’t allow it. I remember being told of a third measuring system beside meteoric and imperial that died off but I can’t remember what it was. 

Anywho I work with what’s needed that’s all.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2022, 06:51 PM by Bertotti »
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Offline luvmytoolz

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2022, 07:50 PM »
This for sure, my industry is know for getting employees of less than stellar intelligence. Some are ignorant, never been taught, some are stupid, incapable of learning. I use imperial for every thing I do, it isn’t rocket science but for the occasional stupid person I will use metric because it is easier to teach in some cases yet I still get people who can’t even grasp that.

I stick with imperial 95% of the time heck even the equipment I work on is a mix or imperial and or metric. That drives me nuts but for a lot of our engineers it is just another step in the specifications they use to determines items needed for a specific torque shear strength size. Etc….

Not sure what the big deal is if you do t want imperial in your country just don’t allow it. I remember being told of a third measuring system beside meteoric and imperial that died off but I can’t remember what it was. 

Anywho I work with what’s needed that’s all.

I've never understood the difficulty some people have converting or using metric/imperial, I like to use metric primarily, but I'm often guilty of mixing the two, for example in OZ most people would refer to sheet goods as 8' x 4' instead of 2440 x 1220 but give the thickness in mm. If you've done the conversion more than once, surely it's not too hard to remember that 3/4" is roughly 19mm, 1/2" is 12.7mm, etc. It's an indication of the sad state of education if grown a** people can't perform a simple calculation as part of their job I reckon.

Offline Spandex

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #50 on: September 23, 2022, 06:56 AM »
Yes, it's possible to do a few calculations to convert between the two, and most people are perfectly capable of doing so if required. But it's also understandable that even people capable of doing those calculations might resent having to do so, and resent the possibility for errors that this additional step might introduce.

I understand the desire to defend the measurement system you use, but the reality is that metric is much more simple to use, without reducing the accuracy in order to achieve that simplicity. It is the better system. That's not to say everyone who uses imperial (or a mixture of the two) is a fool, but there's no question which would be the most sensible choice if everyone was starting from scratch.

I say this as a Brit who uses a mixture of both systems. But as much as I'm used to ordering a pint, or thinking in miles or mph when driving, I would still see it as progress if we were to go fully metric. Although as long as some parts of the population insist on entwining the use of imperial measurements with an old-fashioned notion of patriotism, I doubt there's much chance of that happening here.

Offline luvmytoolz

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #51 on: September 23, 2022, 07:12 AM »
Everything I cut, mark, create, machine, is in metric which is my preference, but the importance I think is being able to be fluent in both when needed, after all it's not rocket science, or even barely taxing on the brain.

Funnily enough, for reasons I didn't really comprehend, a person I did a lot of work for ran a metal fabrication business here in OZ, and everything they do is in imperial, and he explained that all the sizes and thicknesses of the raw steel sheets/rods/bars, etc are all done to imperial for some reason that makes it all cohesive, but wouldn't quite work with metric (due to rounding issues?).

I don't know if it's changed since then, but certainly in his industry they all used imperial.

Offline JimH2

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #52 on: September 23, 2022, 06:04 PM »
While not a cheap solution consider the Mafell DuoDoweler if you do not have a Domino because it does what a Domino does, but like everything there are advantages/disadvantages for both. There is debate as to which is better at what it does, but if strength is your only consideration dowels win. The major advantage of the LR32 is the ease of setup and accuracy with minimal fuss. You do have to purchase a template for doing shelf pin holes and two bits, but it is very easy to use.

I had a Domino and LR32 kit that I used for several years. After seeing the DuoDoweler I bought one and both of the templates (long and short) and have never regretted selling the Domino and the LR32. Dollar wise there is not much of a difference and Mafell uses the same Systainers.

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #53 on: September 23, 2022, 06:20 PM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #54 on: September 23, 2022, 06:58 PM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away
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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2022, 03:23 AM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.
I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away

It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

 [big grin]



« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 03:28 AM by woodbutcherbower »

Offline MikeGE

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2022, 04:16 AM »

It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

 [big grin]
Ha ha ha!!!  This almost happened a couple of years ago here when a German contractor bid on a U.S. contract to rebuild a perimeter road at a small military installation.  All of the measurements in the request for bids were imperial, but the contractor didn't notice the units and bid on KM instead of Miles.  The error was discovered during the cost evaluation because it was not realistic.  The contractor was not asked to correct the proposal and was disqualified.

Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #57 on: September 24, 2022, 06:51 AM »
That's just bad typing. I knew it well enough to use the .9 instead of rounding up.
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Offline Mini Me

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #58 on: September 24, 2022, 09:37 AM »
for example in OZ most people would refer to sheet goods as 8' x 4' instead of 2440 x 1220 but give the thickness in mm. If you've done the conversion more than once, surely it's not too hard to remember that 3/4" is roughly 19mm, 1/2" is 12.7mm, etc. It's an indication of the sad state of education if grown a** people can't perform a simple calculation as part of their job I reckon.

I can't remember when I last specified a sheet in imperial and I grew up in Oz using imperial at school. I can understand some just don't do enough work in metric because the more you do the more you think in metric, it is just like learning another language. I also never convert because that is another crutch, plan in the system measurement you use and work in it whether that be imperial or metric and no conversion is required.

Online Coen

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #59 on: September 24, 2022, 11:09 AM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.

I saw that coming a hundred miles (60.9km) away

Muhahaha, according to some in this thread you are now considered "a better idiot"  [big grin] (note; not my words!!)

But really, that Sys3 is bad in so many ways...
Even with a 137 the front handle won't sit flush if connected to a previous generation T-Loc below it because of the slightly bigger T.


It’s 160.9km, CRG ………

You just lost your company a coupla hundred million dollars on the highway paving contract you just won because you were a third of the price of all the other bidders.

 [big grin]
Ha ha ha!!!  This almost happened a couple of years ago here when a German contractor bid on a U.S. contract to rebuild a perimeter road at a small military installation.  All of the measurements in the request for bids were imperial, but the contractor didn't notice the units and bid on KM instead of Miles.  The error was discovered during the cost evaluation because it was not realistic.  The contractor was not asked to correct the proposal and was disqualified.

So the US probably paid more because half the local businesses probably didn't even care to bid on a contract with weird units.

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 379
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #60 on: September 24, 2022, 01:04 PM »

So the US probably paid more because half the local businesses probably didn't even care to bid on a contract with weird units.
I was on the source selection board, and the contract was awarded to one of the two local German companies.  The other bidders were observant enough to see the bolded statement on the drawing package cover sheet and Note 1 on every drawing that clearly stated all measurements were imperial.  The bidding was open to all sources, which included UK and US firms.

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Offline Crazyraceguy

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Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #61 on: September 24, 2022, 05:18 PM »

But really, that Sys3 is bad in so many ways...
Even with a 137 the front handle won't sit flush if connected to a previous generation T-Loc below it because of the slightly bigger T
@Coen I get it. I hate them as much as you do. I'm just less vocal about it. I feel like it was a shift to something that no-one wanted. They just abandoned those of us who have been using them for years, in favor of something that those of us in the US had never even heard about. (Bott) It's just not a thing here. 
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Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #62 on: September 24, 2022, 05:36 PM »
... (Bott) It's just not a thing here.
It's not really a thing in Europe either. In US, you can at least buy the slides from Festool ...

I would not know what Bott is - as in: "Never ever heard or seen." - were it not for this Systainer mess.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #63 on: September 24, 2022, 05:54 PM »
Really? So where in the heck does Festool think this market is? If we don't know it here and you don't know it there, who is driving this? Certainly, they are not trying to create a market, especially at the expense of long-time users?
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Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #64 on: September 24, 2022, 07:51 PM »
Really? So where in the heck does Festool think this market is? If we don't know it here and you don't know it there, who is driving this? Certainly, they are not trying to create a market, especially at the expense of long-time users?

If SYS3 is the one with detents to lock the handles in place, what a PITA to use, I'm chiselling the lug off my ones so the handles can move freely! The fact it's also just that bit higher than the older model also screws up the racks I built to store them in.

IMHO it's a solution looking for a problem.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #65 on: Yesterday at 08:09 AM »
Really? So where in the heck does Festool think this market is? If we don't know it here and you don't know it there, who is driving this? Certainly, they are not trying to create a market, especially at the expense of long-time users?

If SYS3 is the one with detents to lock the handles in place, what a PITA to use, I'm chiselling the lug off my ones so the handles can move freely! The fact it's also just that bit higher than the older model also screws up the racks I built to store them in.

IMHO it's a solution looking for a problem.

Yes, that's the ones....and those are not the only problems. The extra sizes do not conform with the standard that was designed in before. They screwed up the proportions. The top handles move the opposite direction, even the lettering is reversed? The front handles are a problem too. They are "false" on the larger ones and they interfere with the latch on the smallest ones.
The engineers had it right and some marketing wanks went away from it
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Offline luvmytoolz

  • Posts: 131
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #66 on: Yesterday at 08:18 AM »
Yes, that's the ones....and those are not the only problems. The extra sizes do not conform with the standard that was designed in before. They screwed up the proportions. The top handles move the opposite direction, even the lettering is reversed? The front handles are a problem too. They are "false" on the larger ones and they interfere with the latch on the smallest ones.
The engineers had it right and some marketing wanks went away from it

It never ceases to amaze me that these sorts of changes or things don't occur without having been proposed, designed and approved by committee, in which case you'd think at least one sane person in cases like these might say "do you think that's a stupid idea?"!

As you mentioned, I think the false handle on the large units is just idiotic, surely no engineer with any self pride would have suggested that?

Online Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #67 on: Yesterday at 08:25 AM »
That false handle is the same the Bosch L-Boxx has. It's intended to pull out the box from it's rack.

Now compare some more; L-boxx is usually lots of wasted space. Same sys3. L-boxx has locking top handle, so does sys3. L-Boxx doesn't have a card insert; sys3 dropped it's side cardslots.

However, nixing the height system was the dumbest thing as far as I see it. A Bosch L-Boxx 102 and a 136 (the next size) stack to the same as the next size; 238. Just like a Systainer 1 + Systainer 2 used to stack to the height of a Systainer 4.

Online Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #68 on: Yesterday at 09:35 AM »

So the US probably paid more because half the local businesses probably didn't even care to bid on a contract with weird units.
I was on the source selection board, and the contract was awarded to one of the two local German companies.  The other bidders were observant enough to see the bolded statement on the drawing package cover sheet and Note 1 on every drawing that clearly stated all measurements were imperial.  The bidding was open to all sources, which included UK and US firms.

A US or UK firm is not gonna be able to make a competitive offer such a distance outside their normal market and the German firms probably all marked it up because they had to convert everything. Clockwise or counter clockwise... the USA paid more because of the stupid units.

Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #69 on: Yesterday at 09:42 AM »
Really? So where in the heck does Festool think this market is? If we don't know it here and you don't know it there, who is driving this? Certainly, they are not trying to create a market, especially at the expense of long-time users?

Festool USA is trying to drum up some enthusiasm for the concept. Check out the recent Festool Live Episode 109. Sedge is also threatening to record a 2nd session.

https://youtu.be/VY85HCmGpNc?t=3

I also hate the SYS 3 fiasco, a front handle that flaps around and makes noise all the time while you're driving, the top handle pivots in the wrong direction, no card slots on the sides, goofy stacking heights. Actually for the new tools I'm purchasing, I'm putting the new tools in older T-Locs and using the SYS 3 for storing other stuff.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #70 on: Yesterday at 09:47 AM »
Yes, the proportional size is the most important to me too. The others are more of an inconvenience.
Combining them correctly will get you two stacks that are equal.
Plus, they all fit into the 32mm system. You build storage cabinets based in that and they fit.
My first experience with this was the RO125 which came in the new sized Sys3 that is bigger than the T-loc 2 that it would have been in before. This screwed up my system. I made it fit by dropping the drawer slides down to the bottom of the cabinet, but that's not in the 32mm holes.
The front handles are of no use to me, or anyone with Sys-Az drawers.
The top handles "snap" to keep them from rattling in the truck with the Bott racks.
The handles swing foreword to keep them from snagging when sliding in the racks, again no need it the original system. When the drawer is pulled out to access a Systainer, the handle naturally falls to the back, so it doesn't get in the way when pushing it back in either.
The Bott racks are for truck storage only, they are not intended to be opened/accessed, like the Sys-Az, or shop made drawers. Again, not the original intent of the system.

Tanos could make a line of Bott-specific models and leave the system the way it was.
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Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #71 on: Yesterday at 09:51 AM »
I also hate the SYS 3 fiasco, a front handle that flaps around and makes noise all the time while you're driving, the top handle pivots in the wrong direction, no card slots on the sides, goofy stacking heights. Actually for the new tools I'm purchasing, I'm putting the new tools in older T-Locs and using the SYS 3 for storing other stuff.

Maybe that's it? They can sell some more T-locs to the guys who dislike the new ones.
Seems like the T-locs are not being discontinued by Tanos? The other colors are still available as well as drawer unit and Combi units.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:53 AM by Crazyraceguy »
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Offline JimH2

  • Posts: 1161
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #72 on: Yesterday at 11:04 AM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.
Not yet. They were slow to move T-Loc.

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #73 on: Yesterday at 11:35 AM »
Afaik Mafell uses the T-Loc Systainers, not the Sys3, so superior in that aspect.
Not yet. They were slow to move T-Loc.

Maybe they are wise enough to stick with a good thing? Then again, the don't have near the extensive line of tools or need for sizes.

The other companies that use custom Systainers for their products, have T-loc. Shaper, TSO, WoodPeckers, Mirka, Fein, Bessey, even Spax screws are available in T-loc.
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #74 on: Yesterday at 11:44 AM »
The other companies that use custom Systainers for their products, have T-loc. Shaper, TSO, WoodPeckers, Mirka, Fein, Bessey, even Spax screws are available in T-loc.

TSO & Woodpeckers are now SYS 3. [sad] [crying]

Offline Crazyraceguy

  • Posts: 1843
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #75 on: Yesterday at 11:49 AM »
The other companies that use custom Systainers for their products, have T-loc. Shaper, TSO, WoodPeckers, Mirka, Fein, Bessey, even Spax screws are available in T-loc.

TSO & Woodpeckers are now SYS 3. [sad] [crying]
Bummer. My Woodpecker Track square is in T-loc, but it's over a year old too.
Fein doesn't offer it that way anymore, but they did a few years ago.
I'm still thinking about buying that Bessey set.
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Online Cheese

  • Posts: 9998
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #76 on: Yesterday at 11:57 AM »
Bummer. My Woodpecker Track square is in T-loc, but it's over a year old too.
Fein doesn't offer it that way anymore, but they did a few years ago.
I'm still thinking about buying that Bessey set.

That's the reason I recently purchased the Shaper accessory Systainer before that was also changed over to SYS 3.  [mad]

Offline MikeGE

  • Posts: 379
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #77 on: Yesterday at 01:18 PM »
A US or UK firm is not gonna be able to make a competitive offer such a distance outside their normal market and the German firms probably all marked it up because they had to convert everything. Clockwise or counter clockwise... the USA paid more because of the stupid units.

You might be surprised how competitive overseas (with respect to Germany) firms can be when bidding on local projects.  Some subcontract all or part of the work to local firms and others perform the work with their own resources.  The proposals identify the division of labor and source of materials.

I developed and managed construction and renovation projects in Germany for 22 years before I retired.  Proposals are evaluated for best value to the government based on factors that include, but not limited to, innovation, technical approach, risk identification and management, past performance with similar projects, and finally cost.  However, cost is not necessarily a deciding factor if the proposal justifies the higher amount.

Offline mino

  • Posts: 1127
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #78 on: Yesterday at 01:53 PM »
TSO & Woodpeckers are now SYS 3. [sad] [crying]
Though TSO uses SYS M 112, so there is really no change as one can always remove the front handle ..

Same will be the case for Spax and WP, I presume.
When The Machine has no brains, use yours.

Online Coen

  • Posts: 1796
Re: OF1400 and LR32 - why doesn't of1400 come with an 8mm collet?!
« Reply #79 on: Yesterday at 03:07 PM »
TSO & Woodpeckers are now SYS 3. [sad] [crying]
Though TSO uses SYS M 112, so there is really no change as one can always remove the front handle ..

Same will be the case for Spax and WP, I presume.

Reversed handle direction, no side card slots.