Author Topic: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill  (Read 11796 times)

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Offline Otakar Svojše

  • Posts: 52
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2021, 08:49 AM »
Amateur performance TPC 18/4

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Offline Brian Livingstone

  • Posts: 199
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2021, 09:32 AM »

Does anyone know when the new TS55 may be available in NA, specifically Canada ?  I bought a new TS55 two days ago.  The saw is obviously a joy to use, and can easily handle the work I use it for (cabinetry). 

Thank you.

Brian
Kapex, TS75, MFT, OF1010, OF2200, DTS400 REQ, Parallel guide rails, 800, 1080, 1400, 1900, 3000 guide rail, Domino 500, CT36, CT Midi, , RS2E, RO150, Boom Arm, Crown stops, 6 drawer Sortainer, Carvex, Syslite II, Festool safety glasses must start to wear.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 802
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2021, 09:43 AM »
Hmmm, looks like I will be keeping my older model saws. I don't have kickback problems. But the riving knife has done it's job helping prevent the kerf closing up so that I could keep cutting ( ripping solid wood) many times.

On the other hand I like that feature on the drill. That would be a great wrist saver with hole saws.

Seth

Same for me. No riving knife = no buy, sensor or no sensor.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8167
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2021, 10:12 AM »
it's kinda funny, when I was shopping track saws, I nearly went Mafell, but went with Festool, in part because of the riving knife.  Now it looks like Festool is saying Mafell was right, so in some ways, the new saws are an advertisement for Mafell.

I've debated buying a newer TS55 and switching parts over to make one metric, but just see it as a waste just to solve the tilt lock issues.

Just purchase the Mafell and you can dispense with switching out parts to make it metric.  [smile]

I do like the thinner kerf blades for use on the Mafell, I just need to measure the kerf width versus the plate width to see how well they'll work with the splinter strip.

Also Interesting that Festool brought back the aluminum blade to the US. I now wonder why they originally took it off of the US market...maybe a couple of nervous and very vocal lawyers jumping the gun?

Also from the US website:

Can the TS 55 R and TSC 55 guide wedge be retrofitted so that the new saw blades (1.8 mm cutting width) can be used?

That is not possible for approval-related reasons.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2021, 11:07 AM by Cheese »

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2021, 10:19 AM »
What I'm really curious about is what users transferring from the "old" TS/TSC to the new saws will think about the thinner blades and potential deflection issues, already known & voiced by some of the Mafell/Bosch users.

Otherwise, my TSC 55 is in great shape and working fantastic for me - no need to change.

But I might get the TPC for comparison's sake.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1276
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2021, 10:47 AM »

I've debated buying a newer TS55 and switching parts over to make one metric, but just see it as a waste just to solve the tilt lock issues.

Just purchase the Mafell and you can dispense with switching out parts to make it metric.  [smile]


I regret going festool on the saw a good bit, but now I have it.  When/if it gets replaced some day, it will be the mafell.  I basically look elsewhere for stuff where the "americafication" of tools comes in.  So things like sanders are fine, but routers are the issue, as there isn't much to go to.  The other reason for the TS was getting the festool rails, for the LR32 stuff, but now I have a DDF40, so that no longer matters.  Of course Festool has 3meter rails, so that is a bonus there.  So either way, I'd still probably se the festool rails.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8167
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2021, 11:01 AM »
Ya, the funny thing is I've had several kickbacks with the TS 55 & TSC 55 while being used on rails. Nothing severe, but definitely attention getters.  [smile]

I've yet to have a kickback with the Mafell. Was it because of the previous TS kickbacks that I became more careful when using the Mafell? Possibly.

When I first used the TS 55 maybe I was just more used to using a traditional circular saw and was using the TS in that manner? Probably.

On another note, this is from the Festool USA website.

https://www.festoolusa.com/campaigns/landing-page/circular-saw-blades#Performancefeatures



Offline DynaGlide

  • Posts: 904
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2021, 11:15 AM »
I've been happy with the TS55 for its intended purpose, mainly cabinetry. I was considering a TSC 55 and not sure if I should get the 2.2mm current gen when it inevitably gets discontinued and goes on sale. I do like the riving knife.
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1276
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2021, 11:18 AM »
tooth count changes to blades.  Will the blades cost less because of the reduction of 6 teeth  [tongue]

I'm kind surprised that if they aren't interchangeable, that they didn't change the arbor size or something like that.

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 845
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2021, 11:29 AM »
Seems like it’s closing in for me to get a TS 55 F later this spring.
Thanks for the chart Cheese! - Now a TS 55 and my HKC can share blades - I suspected that they would, reading about the latest revision of the TS

Kinda strange that the TSC was the only receiving the sensor.
Any idea if this was to keep the compatibility towards the CMS module?
I’d like to think so... cause you exchange the riving knife when putting the TS 55 upside down into the module.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
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Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1276
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2021, 11:45 AM »
Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8167
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2021, 11:49 AM »
Deformed...I tried to check out the prices of the new blades but they're not yet listed on Festool website, neither is the new saw.  [sad]

Dyna...if you like the riving knife, nothing preventing you from purchasing the older TSC when or if it goes on sale and then grinding the knife to the proper thickness. For me I've always cursed the riving knife when changing blades, it's always in the way. Consequently blade changes on the Festool saws were minimal for me and that also included the frequency of blade cleaning. The first thing I noticed with the Mafell was how quick blade changes were without the riving knife.  [smile]

However, I'm not so sure the old TSC saws will be closed out at fire sale pricing with this Covid thing. All tools are in short supply and slashing pricing is probably not in the immediate future unfortunately. [sad]

Offline Otakar Svojše

  • Posts: 52
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2021, 01:06 PM »
Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

No, the TSC 55 has an EC-TEC brushless motor. TS 55 has a motor with brushes.

Offline DeformedTree

  • Posts: 1276
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2021, 01:34 PM »
Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

No, the TSC 55 has an EC-TEC brushless motor. TS 55 has a motor with brushes.

Which may be where the issue is, they might not be able to do the new system on a brushed motor, and redoing the TS55 to brushless motor was too much work for this minor revision.

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 802
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2021, 02:29 PM »
Ya, the funny thing is I've had several kickbacks with the TS 55 & TSC 55 while being used on rails. Nothing severe, but definitely attention getters.  [smile]

I've yet to have a kickback with the Mafell. Was it because of the previous TS kickbacks that I became more careful when using the Mafell? Possibly.

When I first used the TS 55 maybe I was just more used to using a traditional circular saw and was using the TS in that manner? Probably.

On another note, this is from the Festool USA website.

https://www.festoolusa.com/campaigns/landing-page/circular-saw-blades#Performancefeatures


(Attachment Link)

The 496306 is wrongly named "TF48" in that table. The 496306 is TF52.

Offline Otakar Svojše

  • Posts: 52
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2021, 03:46 PM »
Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

No, the TSC 55 has an EC-TEC brushless motor. TS 55 has a motor with brushes.

Which may be where the issue is, they might not be able to do the new system on a brushed motor, and redoing the TS55 to brushless motor was too much work for this minor revision.

Yes exactly. But in the future, every new machine was supposed to be with a brushless motor. We'll see ... :-)

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 845
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2021, 04:48 PM »
Well, CMS is dead, so I doubt that was a factor.

Do the TS and TSC use the same motor?  I wonder if that came into play for the controls.

I don’t think Festool would ignore that there’s a lot of CMS modules in use out there, those who have a module for their existing TS 55 I’m sure would be happy that their new one would be usable, not rendering the CMS useless. CMS are not forbidden to use, they were stopped by new regulations. Used correctly, they are as safe as a new portable table saw, if hooked correctly to a NVR switch provided with the CMS tables. Keeping compatibility is important to Festool. It even shows on the new drill. I’m sure this falls very good in favour of pro customer brand loyalty.
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“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”

Offline Chainring

  • Posts: 1
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2021, 05:07 PM »
Hello all,

New user, new Festool owner, and in the market for a track saw. I've been monitoring this thread since I'm looking at the TSC 55 and deciding between it and the newly announced TSC 55 K. Interestingly, the TSC 55 K kits were on the Festool US site yesterday and now they're gone. Seems the page may have been put up prematurely, at least for the US market.

TSC 55 KEBI-F-Plus-FS, 577008

https://www.festoolusa.com/products/sawing/track-saws/577008---tsc-55-kebi-plus-f-fs-us

Offline Paul_HKI

  • Posts: 17
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2021, 06:39 PM »
I've been happy with the TS55 for its intended purpose, mainly cabinetry. I was considering a TSC 55 and not sure if I should get the 2.2mm current gen when it inevitably gets discontinued and goes on sale. I do like the riving knife.

I sold my 2016 TS55 REBQ and picked up a massively discounted TS55 REBQ-Plus-FS two weeks ago when I saw the price drop down to €499.  €50 to change, all new including the warranty.  Happy days.  That price has gone up by €100 here since the new model was released, and they're sold out.

Then I saw a few TSC 55 REBI-Plus-SCA up for just €599 the next day, so I jumped on that right away.  Airstream charger, 2 x 5.2Ah ASI batteries etc.  What a great deal.  The price today is back up to €849 and only one in stock.

The point is, unless there's an excess of stock sitting around somewhere, I wouldn't count on much clearance discounting going on.  Both the saws I've picked up this month were manufactured in the tail end of last year, November/December.  There doesn't appear to be a lot of inventory sitting around over here and from everything I've experienced trying to find some specific tools over the past 6 months, I think it's the same everywhere.

So if you want a TSC with the riving knife, I'd find one now or accept that you might not be able to get a new one for much longer, unless something moves in the supply/distribution chain. 
TSC 55 REBI Plus SCA, TS 55 REBQ, DF 500 + stuff,  DF 700+ stuff, TXS 2.6Li, T18+3, PDC 18/4, RO 150 FEQ, CTL-SYS, CTL MIDI & MIDI I, MFT/3 + stuff.  Probably more green stuff I'm forgetting about.

Offline Cheese

  • Posts: 8167
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2021, 11:50 AM »
There was some discussion on this thread about a mechanical riving knife vs an electronic riving knife, here's Mafell's response:

"These Mafell plunge cut saws essentially have an electronic riving knife—an auto-stop feature to protect the user when jammed.  Mafell wanted this feature to make plunge cuts easier, and they received special approval from their government to do so.  Most users agree this is an advantage over other track saws, some of which have had recall issues with their riving knife in the past."

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 802
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2021, 11:54 AM »
Bunch of PR smoke. They have NO riving knife.

Electronics or not; like was said before; an absent riving knife does not keep the kerf from closing.

Offline SRSemenza

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2021, 11:57 PM »
Please see Spare Parts / CMS discussion here --------------> https://www.festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/spare-parts-cms-discussion/

Seth

Offline Coen

  • Posts: 802
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2021, 11:27 AM »
I just saw the TS 55 F still has a riving knife.  [big grin]

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2021, 11:39 AM »
There was some discussion on this thread about a mechanical riving knife vs an electronic riving knife, here's Mafell's response:

"These Mafell plunge cut saws essentially have an electronic riving knife—an auto-stop feature to protect the user when jammed.  Mafell wanted this feature to make plunge cuts easier, and they received special approval from their government to do so.  Most users agree this is an advantage over other track saws, some of which have had recall issues with their riving knife in the past."

Did they really say government? As in government of the Federal Republic of Germany? Or did they mean governing/overseeing body in terms of trade/industry like "Employers' Liability Insurance Association" / DGUV?

That would be a huge difference, and the first one actually doesn't sound plausible to me.


Scratch that, my mistake. Ultimately the guidelines and rules set out by those governing bodies are indeed approved by a body of the German government.

Kind regards,
Oliver
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 11:48 AM by six-point socket II »
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline DeformedTree

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2021, 12:02 PM »
German Government or the EU?  Wouldn't anything sold there have to follow rules for the whole EU, not just one country?  Like a "council of power tools and appendage protection" located in Brussels?

Who decides what tools need over there? Who defines what a riving knife is?

I assume folks smarter than any of us have thought this through.  But of course "assume"...

Offline six-point socket II

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2021, 03:50 PM »
It's rather complicated to explain.

Almost all commercially working tradesman and workers/employees in Germany are insured, I say almost because there are exceptions - I won't go into those.

No matter what trade, they all have a branch of insurance, there are 9 of them. Additionally for the workers/employees not in a trade but other fields, there are 24 accident insurance companies. All of them are statutory. All of them together are known as: German Statutory accident insurance (DGUV).

They, by law, are entitled to make rules on everything that you would know as OSHA standards. In Germany, the part of accident prevention, is called UVV (Unfallverhütungsvorschriften = Accident Prevention Rules).

DGUV - in the end - is overseen by the German Federal Ministry of Labour and Social Affairs.

Now getting to the riving knife.

If you look into the DGUV rules for carpenters: https://www.bgbau.de/fileadmin/Medien-Objekte/Medien/DGUV-Regeln/109-606.pdf

(Sorry, I don't have a link to an english language version of this document.)

It says which type of saws need a riving knife. In case of handheld circular saws, it says that it needs to have one, with the exception if the saw is compliant with exceptions laid out within DIN EN 60745-2-5 standard (Title: Hand-held motor-operated electric tools - Safety - Part 2-5: Particular requirements for circular saws (IEC 60745-2-5:2010, modified) )

I can't go deeper into this, because I don't have access to this document, in Germany the standards are not public domain, you need to buy these.

Now what this means is: If you are a carpenter with statutory insurance, you need to abide by this rules.

This does not mean a manufacturer is barred from building a tool that is in one point or more, non-compliant with these rules. As long as it is generally safe, abides by a thousand other rules, he can put it on the market and sell it.

The catch is, a tradesman with statutory insurance couldn't use it on the job/commercially. If he did and an inspector came and noticed it, he would order the tradesman not to use it.

So if you want to sell tools to commercial users bound to the rules of statutory insurance, you need to abide by their rules and build your tools accordingly.

So when Mafell says, they were authorized by the government. What they mean is that they got a change of code/standard approved for a circular saw that has another safety device in place instead of the classic riving knife. And the statutory insurance rule makers decided that was good, and referred to this chapter of the standard for eligible exceptions from the classic riving knife on hand held circular saws.

Since the government oversees those who make the rules and refer to standards that are to be adhered to, they were right in their wording.

I really hope this is understandable. I tried to be as specific as I could but I'm no expert on this either. I'm sure there are more details, more steps - but it sums up the end result just fine.

Let's leave the EU out of it, the cited standard was already harmonized (EN). That would only fill more pages.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline mino

  • Posts: 222
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2021, 05:38 PM »
Let's leave the EU out of it, the cited standard was already harmonized (EN). That would only fill more pages. ...
I am sure the standard/requirement does not mention riving knife specifically.

It would mention something along "device preventing xyz type of a scenario". It would be then on the maker to prove (or declare, depends) that a device he uses meets that requirement to get the CE mark.

Then insurance company would have a more specific "simplified" interpretation which would allow a maker to SKIP this prove/declare part as it would state something along "an automatically extending riving knife is deemed to provid for this and that requirement".
This means Maffel would not need to have any standards changed. All they would need to have done is PROVE their solution fulfills the original requirement via other means.

IMO the wording on the advert is purposefully making this some type of "Maffel did something special". But that is normal marketing, nothing to be ashamed.
 [cool]
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 06:18 PM by mino »
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Offline six-point socket II

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Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2021, 05:56 PM »
It's actually pretty precise on how the saw needs to be build if it doesn't have a riving knife. I was - by now - able to take a look at it - partly at least.

Main take away is, if no riving knife is present, saw needs to be designed in a way that if it jumps out of the cut either a pendulum cover swings over the blade rapidly, or in case of a plung saw, the action is smooth, fast and strong enough for the blade being retracted immediately. (Yeah, I know ...) And in this case, the German DIN got weakened through this harmonizing process.

CE is always a self-declaration of the manufacturer, that he has abided by all rules/standards applicable.

Kind regards,
Oliver
Kind regards,
Oliver

"... . Say yes to stuff, and it will take you interesting places." - Anne Richards, CEO Fidelity International

Offline Svar

  • Posts: 2340
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2021, 06:19 PM »
What I find interesting is that only the TSC will get the electronic anti-kickback while the corded TS 55 will keep the riving knife. I would have expected the opposite - the TSC is the one more likely to be used free-handed.
I don't think you can use new TS with electronic anti-kickback free-hand. When not sitting on rail the lever will not be pressed up at the beginning of cut. Hence the saw will not start.  [sad] That lever could have been in the middle of the shoe in the arbor area.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 06:25 PM by Svar »

Offline FestitaMakool

  • Posts: 845
Re: New TSC 55 K saw and TPC 18 drill
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2021, 06:26 PM »
From the Festool video it apparently seems that the electronic safety feature can be disabled temporarily by a button between the batteries. It will reset automatically when restart.
“The Stig” Yes, it is true, at least some part of it..
“If you have an old Land Rover and a fit wife, you’re most likely always busy”